Ulicus

Haha! "I seem to have *disarmed* you" ??? "Your *hand* in my destiny is over!" ??? They're beautiful. Really screams, "Ausion (Dark-Side Force) Powers, Intergalactic Man of Misery" Christ, that really is the worst thing I've ever come up with.

I agree with what you said about the whole "you train them to become Jedi way too easily" One thing though- The Sith'Ari prophesy is not the Balance of the Force prophesy. Darth Vader does *not* fulfill the critera needed to be the Sith'Ari (two of the things he *does* fulfill happen in the wrong Order - the Sith'Ari makes the Sith stronger *THROUGH* destroying them, as opposed to making them stronger then destroying them) - finally, he never truly led the Sith. If anything it was a reference to Darth Bane - though now I think it'll be changed to be some influential thing in KotOR 3. Probably involving Revan/and or the Exile (in fact, the Exile is essentially the Sith Code in human form: I mean, "through victory my chains are broken'"? "The Force will free me"? The similarities between the process of the Sith Code's passion>>>freedom and the Exile's condition are way too strong for it not to be relevant. Also, I'd say that Luke's "stupidly strong connection to the Force" came more from the fact that the Force was his "granddad" as opposed to Vader's nature as Dark Lord of the Sith - but that's just me picking you up on semantics, I knew what you meant. Finally in response to the actual topic- I don't see why it shouldn't be included in the database. After all, as has been mentioned - the EU is not canon, only the movies are canon and even they contradict each other from PT to OT. KotOR 2 is already official- it's a Lucasarts game remember. And last of all- for the oft-mentioned "canonical ls male Revan ending". This isn't the case. The database says the Star Forge was destroyed but then, in the "behind the scenes" admits: "Though the branching nature of KotOR's storyline allows the dark side to prevail and the Star Forge to remain intact, Star Wars continuity dictates that one way or another the Star Forge was destroyed." If that isn't saying, "make you own mind up" I don't know what is. Besides, you have to remember that in Bastila's entry it gets to the point where it says: "Bastila tried to tempt Revan over to the dark side - and the results of this confrontation would decide the fate of hte galaxy". Not "Bastila tried to tempt Revan over to the dark side again and he said no." So really, I think it's more accurate to say that the *preferred* ending is LS male, as opposed to the "official" ending. After all... *why* go through all the pain of having the "choose Revan's decisions and gender in KotOR 2" if it was "offical that Revan was ls male"? They would have just said, "official ending: Revan ls male - think of your other playthroughs as AU". Oh and one lassssst thing (I've had "finally" "last of all" and now another "last"? Man I'm getting sloppy). The databanks aren't even accurate. I mean, Malak clearly *wasn't* a Jedi trained on Dantooine, nor was he "unleashed by his Jedi Masters to fight in the Mandalorian wars". That came straight from the official KotOR site - but going from everything in the game, it's wrong. Ok, done now.

Yeah, I always thought it was something like this. In fact, at one point I theorised that your character in KotOR II was going to be a former member amongst this "inner circle" but alas it was not to be... I thought my idea was cooler than what they ending up doing... but that's because I'm arrogant and don't know anything. It was a little "samey" with what happened in KotOR as well. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not entirely accurate. Revan gave the Exile power because of their bonding abilities. I assume that the Exile WOULD have fallen and joined Revan, had they not severed themselves first... Hmm... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> True. I just meant to say that before KotOR II, I had assumed that not only were you a veteran of the Mandalorian wars, but also secretly a former Sith apprentice to Revan as well. (Who knew he was, but was simply hiding it from everyone else, including the person playing him) But like I said- that was well too "samey" with what happened in KotOR I. I'd have found it cool though.

Well, canonically speaking I'd say you only have The Force and its Dark Side. Whether they're "polar opposites" is up to debate. I've always seen the Force as being like a person, who's usually calm and caring but has a "dark side". I mean, you say a person has a dark-side, but never a "light-side". A funny side perhaps, a caring side maybe but never a "Light-side", though they might be light-hearted Simply put, there isn't a clearly defined light side in the same way there is a clearly defined dark side... you'll never find the words "Light side" in a Star Wars movie, the closest you get is "good side" from the talented, but naive, Luke. After all, if it was a case of "light vs dark" then how would destroying the dark side (in the form of the Sith anyhow...) bring "balance" to the Force? The Force is like a body and the dark side is like a cancer. That's all there is to it. I suppose, you could argue that I've not dismissed the Light Side, that I'm merely calling it "the Force". I can see the logic there... I just, bah. I dunno. I guess that's valid but the point I'm trying to make is that whilst the dark-side has a definition and *should*, being rooted in the very material, selfish desires of living beings, the Force doesn't. The Force transcends this. In contrast, a "light side" is just as pigeon-holed as the "dark side"... I think this excerpt Star Wars novel puts it best: Perhaps its not the best of sources, I just find it to sum up what I'm saying pretty accurately. - Oh and can I just take the moment to clarify that I definately don't think there is a "neutral" path... like a "neutral side" or any such thing, Star Wars is clearly "good vs evil" (and should be, even though I'm ok with a few shades of grey, as long as they fall into one camp or the other) - I just like to think that the good guys are tapping into a mystical energy field beyond their understanding, whilst the bad guys are giving into their anger, rage and selfish desires - feeding and drawing power from the "cancer" of that mystical energy field. "Light-side" is just a term I loathe. I quite like the idea that the new Jedi Order (as in the Jedi Order that comes after the one that was devastated in KotOR, not the NEW Jedi Order from the NJO novels) will adopt the position I've just outlined- which explains why in KotOR they're saying "light side" whereas in the movies there's no mention of it.

Maybe Leia's more powerful... Gosh, wouldn't *that* throw a spanner in the works with all Luke's fanboys? Hehe. *Padme gives birth to twins and dies* Yoda: Midichlorian test we must do. *Die-hard fans scream: NO, NOT THE MIDICHLORIANS!!!!* Yoda: Stronger with the Force the girl is, than the boy Kenobi: Nah, she's a girl- there hasn't been a single female Jedi outside Jocasta Nu with a speaking part, now you tell me our "new hope" is a chick? You're out of mind, freaking, dyslexic muppet. Yoda: Mock my nature not, or limp to Tattooine with one leg, you will. Besides, CGI now, I am. Kenobi: Pfft, yeah well, I'm taking the boy to Tattooine with me - you can do what you like with the girl. Yoda: *sighs*

Surely George Lucas remaking the Original Trilogy is the best thing for die-hard fans and those who want to see completely suped up Eps 4-6? I mean, *think about it*. If he remakes the original trilogy, with new actors, he wouldn't feel the need to alter the Original Trilogy (since it wouldn't be part of "his canon"- and may well go ahead and release it UNALTERED on DVD. Which is exactly what all the purists want. I mean, do you want to know why I've never complained about the special editions? (Well aside from the fact I like most of the changes, heh) - because I have the Originals on video. It's not like they stop existing just because there are new versions. All a lot of fuss about nothing.

Why would they need to? With names like "Revan" and "Malak"? It's like their parents knew they were going to become Dark Lords... I mean, they were pretty lucky they weren't called "Quincy" or "Wilfred" weren't they?

Actually the Sith Empire had existed for *some* time before the first dark-Jedi arrived. No doubt this "Peaceful" Empire was enslaved by the Rakatta, but once their Infinite Empire fell, they just retook what had formerly been theirs and continued on as normal. After, all - the Rakatan Empire *preceded* the Great Schism, yet they had obviously been enslavers of the Sith species.... since there was a Star Map on Korriban. So it's not too far fetched to think that the Sith Empire existed in some form before the arrival of the first "Sith Lords". As for how the Jedi Order started, there isn't really a fixed beginning. George Lucas originally wrote down (for "The Star Wars") a whole thing about "Jedi Bendu families" and how the founder of the "Jedi Bendu" Order had been "The Skywalker". But that was scrapped. Along with calling the Dark Side "The Bogan" (rotflmao... see? GL had stupid ideas way before Jar Jar!) Then later he resurrected the Skywalker name for his Starkiller character... so who knows? Anakin's "messianic" role might be part of some crazy reincarnation of the "original Skywalker"... I wouldn't put it past the bearded one.

Yeah, I always thought it was something like this. In fact, at one point I theorised that your character in KotOR II was going to be a former member amongst this "inner circle" but alas it was not to be... I thought my idea was cooler than what they ending up doing... but that's because I'm arrogant and don't know anything. It was a little "samey" with what happened in KotOR as well.

Well, Revan is in my mind EITHER the "long" brown haired guy with the prominant forehead. Or the one with the shaved head and the scar. No other face looks remotely like a "Revan" to me. Also, all the other Revan heads appear numerous times on people who aren't Revan throughout KotOR II... so... you know. I think its obvious which ones *aren't* official. Though there are a lot of heads that LOOK like the "long" brown haired head (usually in kolto tanks), but aren't.

Though it would have been cool to have either Atris *or* Kreia as the Sith Lord to battle at the end, I *never* liked the whole, "Both are called Darth Traya" thing. That's like saying that the next Sith Lord who's insidious and cunning must also be called Darth Sidious (not that there are any Sith Lords left after RotJ, but you know what I mean). Call me a traditionalist, but I prefer two different Sith to have two different names. Though, Kreia never reveals her Sith name until the end, so it could be assumed (in a playthrough where Atris is the Sith Lord and Kreia isn't) that Darth Traya wasn't Kreia's Sith name at all. Whereas in a playthrough where she is the Sith Lord, it was always her Sith name... if you get me....

Reminds me of a massive debate I had on the Bioware forums.... Me: Ok then, find ONE instance in the entire Star Wars saga of the phrase "Light side"... "Good" side doesn't count. As for the gameplay... I think KotOR should start doing something more akin to SW:RPG. You shouldn't get LS/DS points for what you *say* but for what you do. LS points for heroism, DS points for selecting Dark Side powers at level up and using the dark side. What would be rrrrrreally cool, is if as you got more and more DS points, you were actually *unable* to pick the "good" options to conversations, or were forced into making your character a bad guy. For example: Neutral character could say: 1) [Truth] I will be good! 2) [Lie] I will be good! 3) I will be evil! 4) Do we have to talk abotu morality? A character who's accumilated a lot of dark side points could only say 1) [Lie] I will be good! 2) I will be evil! 3) Do we have to talk about morality? That works far better with the concept of "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" and would also make people actually *think* about if it was a risk worth taking. After all, everyone likes to think they have complete control over their characters and if taking DS powers actually *limited* what you could do with your character personality wise, then it would be cooler I think. I mean, a big problem I find with the EU (and with KotOR, but since I love it I let it slide) is that they constantly stress the theme that "you can come back from the Dark Side". No. No. No. Canonically speaking, Vader is the only person in *history* to have done so. Otherwise what would have prompted Yoda to have said his most famous quote on the dark side? I mean, it wasn't like this: Yoda: Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will!!! But I mean, occasionally come back to the light can you, happens does it sometimes - not so bad is the dark side really - many Jedi fall and come back, all the time happens does it. Revan for instance take, Juhani too, Ulic...

Because having the war machine of the Empire behind you is really singlehanded.... " Vader was kick-ass... but a cripple. *Shrug* It's a testement to how strong in the Force he is that he manages to still be better than all the Jed in the galaxy even after his lava-bath. But I maintain, Revan was the closest thing to Anakin *ever*. And he would be stronger than Vader. That's just my opinion obviously... To go wipe out the True Sith... singlehandedly. Whether he does/can/could or not I don't know, but if he manages it, that's surely on par with hunting down and destroying the Jedi singlehandedly... probably even better. Because we know all of Vader's story (except that one missing piece...) Revan's story has yet to be concluded... afterwards I'm sure there will be a place in Star Wars lore for him... Agreed. Darth Preference is still the victor in this conflcit it would seem...

I was quite disappointed one of the Jedi masters wasn't called "Adahn". Hell, it would have been cool just to have an "I'm ... urm... Adahn... " dialog option. Would have made me smile from ear to ear. (hint hint for kotor 3)

Nah... I know, I said that. *shrug* It is continuity, it's just crap so for me it didn't happen. End of. Like I've said, I would have quite liked to see the basilisk Beast in KotOR 2 - but, it's nothing that drives me insanely crazy and they were just a tad overpowered. And who the hell called Exar Kun a powerful Sith lord? For the last time, the guy was a complete pansy!!! RAGHHHH!!! Name one awesome he did on his own merit that wasn't to do with ancient Sith technology and power amulets. Also... twenty Jedi coverts is pathetic. As Ulic Qel-Droma says in the Sith War comics himself. "Only twenty? I have two entire ARMIES Kun" That pretty much sums up how pants Kun is. Plus, didn't his spirit get held at bay by a three-year old lightsaber weilding Jacen? Or did I just make that up? The whole Jedi Academy thing is foggy to me.

Did you even read the bit where I said I just discarded continuity that I thought was crap, official or no? It's all about preference. You want to believe the official continuity... fine. I'll run with the one that makes the most sense. That is to say that stuff doesn't dramatically change in 40 years time. They call it a "basilisk war droid" in KotOR II. Stealth model or not, it is still a Basilisk War droid- and recognisable as one, since that Onderonian guy says as soon as he sees it, "Ah, we've not seen Baslisk war droids in some time". NOT: "Whoa, what looks nothing like the baslisk war droids I'm used to seeing". You know what I suggest you do? Take KotOR as infinities and ignore it as part of the larger "official" continuity- that way you can keep everything the way you like it, and the people who enjoy the KotOR games as the "definitive take on Star Wars history", like me, can go on thinking that. Whatdoya mean "see"? That implies you've proved your argument is correct when all you've done is ignore what I've said. I've already "seen" your argument in every post you've made and already put forward my thoughts on the matter. You can't change my mind by talking about "official continuity" - CONTINUITY IS NOT CANON. Only Canon can be undisputed by *me*. Everything else is fair game for me to pick and mix. You can disagree- I don't *care* if you disagree, it's your right to enjoy what you think is "Star Wars" just as much as it is mine. But that means you can't tell me I'm wrong. Because what we're debating is not canon *sings and dances*. As far as *I* am concerned: Dark Empire never happened and neither did Splinter of the Mind's eye, Shadows of the Empire did and the Tales of the Jedi comics do not present what the galaxy *actually* looked like at that time - KotOR does. Heh, I'd love to see how you explain Slyvar's DRAMATIC change in appearance from The Sith War to Redemption with your "official continuity" rhetoric I'm sensing it would be something like the Klingons "vastly different appearance" between Original and Next Gen? If the games are as good as the KotOR games, then for me they *CAN* change what happened- especially if what they present is better. That's why I didn't complain when they had all the "A Jedi is not supposed to love" in KotOR - even though this is clearly not the case in ToJ. You're lucky they even bothered mentioning the likes of Exar Kun - hell, I think they should have just striken him from history all together. I've used this a million times but here it goes: the "War of Exar Kun" they talk about in KotOR and hell, even "Exar Kun" is NOT what you're thinking of. You're thinking of ToJ's Exar Kun and Sith War... wrongggg. In KotOR the war is a massive conflict, in which Exar Kun converts thousands of Jedi to his cause and leads a gargantuan army against the Republic. In ToJ the war takes place over a few days, there are a couple of big battles in which Exar Kun plays no part as a "leader", nor does he convert many Jedi. he converts only twenty... *TWENTY*, how pathetic is that? KotOR did what I do: it picked and mixed from the EU to make things more like Star Wars. Which I thought was awesome. You can disagree with me - but you cannot prove me wrong by throwing the official continuity at me. All the "official" continuity is the way to explain and fit *everythign* that's happened in the EU together, even if some things in the EU are CLEARLY incompatable... kind of like how Nintento used to have that lame storyline for all the Legend of Zelda games that made out that Link was the same guy in each one.

Nuke: the Basilisk War Droid is a piece of crap in ToTJ. You've probably seen how Qel-Droma destroys the thing even without his lightsaber, and that Basilisk was Mandalore's personal Basilisk. Seriously I'm glad Chris changed it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> He destroyed the Basilisk with his lightsaber. After that Mandalore told him to discard his weapon and fight "fairly". Ha, personally I found "Mandalore the Indominable... or whatever" to be a bit of a dishonourable c*** when it came to setting up those rules: I can have a basilisk... urm, and you... aren't allowed to touch solid ground. But you can have your lightsaber *loses basilisk* *whinge, moan* Put your lightsaber away and fight like a real man! After that duel he goes up in my esteem... he's just a cheating loser beforehand. As for the Basilisk? Do I think they should have just "made it look modern"? Yeah I do. Am I that bothered? No. I mean, what you've gotta learn Nuke that as far as the KotOR series is concerned, their version is the *only* version. It's not meant to mesh well with ToJ - and as I've already said, on the whole that's a good thing. I mean, you said in this thread (perhaps another one) that "I understand why everythign looks more modern, it's 40 years later" but you've obviously not understood: It's not anything to do with the timespan, if they did a "war of Exar Kun" flashback in the next KotOR game the mandalorians would all still be wearing their "modern Kotor" armour, not that weird spiky "40K Mrk II Space Marine armour ripoff", the mandalorians would all be "humans", ships would NOT be bug-like, the lightsabers would not look like they were made out of bark and the basilisks would look more akin to the one in KotOR II. As far as I am concerned (and this is just my preference) the visuals of KotOR I and II supercede those of ToJ- that is what that era has *always* like. That's just my preference however, and you can choose to believe the shaky "continuity" put forward by SW:Insider, with all its crap about Mandalorians accepting different races and suddenly switching from archaic looking armour to really flashy modern armour within 40 years. I prefer to hold faith in somethign believable however, and that's not what the "official continuity" has presented. And you can't refute what I think based on teh grounds it's not "official continuity"- because I know that, but "continuity" isn't Canon, and I have no qualms going against it. I mean, basilisks were presented in the movies as a beast then yeah, obviously you can't change it. But presented in a comic book? Well... who cares? Yeah, they're cool but... KotOR II's cooler than ToJ, so by default gets to take liberties imho. For me, KotOR I and II have completly redesigned that era - and more power to them for doing so, since they've made it distinctly more star wars and distinctly less crappy.

Has somebody already said Darth Ept? Wait, that was Malak. My mistake.

HK-47 is both protocol droid (he is "proficient in over 6000 languages", after all) and assassin droid. That's why I say C3PO may also be an HK unit - he just doesn't have access to half of his memory during the movies. Now, if someone came to him with enough Repair skill... :D <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Heh, it's a pity Anakin didn't keep him past Episode III. We might have had D(arth)-3PO

I

HK-47 doesn't pose as a protocol droid. I mean, it is *called* his "Assassin protocol" after all...

Well, it's likely that they'll just change the events of ToJ like they already have done. As I've said before, the "Sith War" as presented in the comics wasn't a war, it was a couple of battles and was over in a week. Also, KotOR presents Kun as an immensely powerful Sith Lord that made the ground "tremble". Not exactly like the pansy we were treated to in the comics is it? Also, you could just say they were lying. No-one's going to suspect the Sith Empire still exists if you have Kun and Ulic trying to "re-establish the dead Sith Empire" are you? Perfect cover up imho.

Wasn't the Valley of the Jedi created after the battle of Ruusan? When Lord Kaan did his thought bomb?

Well yes- but isn't that essentially what happens with Vader? His "true personality" remains deep inside, so deep that even he doesn't know it's there. If that's what Kreia actually says (i've never actually heard it :"> ) then that's pretty cool and is in *no* way saying that he didn't fall. It's just equating him to Anakin.... seems to happen a lot with Revan. (Though to what extent Anakin knew what he was doing is questionable... from what I know about Episode III though it does look like he makes a conscious choice to go DS) Yeah, I'm happier about that now.

Revan and Malak were the names of Revan and Malak before they declared themselves with right? The rest of the Sith lords I know, Bane, Sidious, Maul, Tyrannus, Vader...maybe they created names that both sound badass and have something to do with their character? Yeah, I think this can be explained in KotOR 2 however... the Sith under Revan weren't secretive, and Darth was just a title (probably one that had fallen out of use in the True Sith Empire that Revan decided to ressurrect - maybe even a way in which they are supposed to identify the Sith'Ari, or something...) - after Revan and Malak are out of the picture, the Sith become more secretive and take on titles that match their personalities. So you have , Darth Sion (I'm assuming from Scion as opposed to Zion : heir, so could be interpreted as the inheritor of pain or something), Darth Nilihus ("Nothing", as everyone knows....) After the Rule of two it's even more obvious why they take on false names- it's to protect their secret identities. I mean, Darth Palpatine wouldn't have fooled anyone would he? And Darth Dooku... well... alliteration isn't always great.