Ulicus

LSM/F Revan is Carth. DSM/F Revan is Cede... I was annoyed, I thought it was only Cede if you chose DSF, but I was mistaken... that would have been so much cooler. Side note: LSM Revan is the default setting for the game - if you choose to skip past the questions with "I could care less about Revan's fate" that's what you end up with 100% of the time. Which is why that's how I select my LSM Revan games... so as to avoid the annoying, "Revan's a woman" bit from Atton. Really wasn't the best way of going about it - much better would have been: Atton: ... a scrap that laid waste to the galaxy. Exile: 1. I heard that he [did evil stuff] 2. I heard that she [did evil stuff] 3. I heard that he [did good stuff] 4. I heard that he [did good stuff] Especially considering that Atton knows a fair bit about who Revan was... though it could be argued (if you choose the male Revan) that Atton generally tried to feign ignorance over the guy so as to divert suspicion from his past. Ho hum. Having said that, I prefer female Revan in a lot of ways... its just that the cutscene Revan is clearly of the male scout build... even though there's a "female robed Revan" model in the game (aside from not having a face, she looks *kickass*)... strange Bioware.

I have played DS, though only once, and I definitely lean more toward the LS side of things. Even so, I like Vrook in the sort of love/hate kind of way. I mean, we're supposed to not like Vrook - he was created that way. He is a grumpy old fool who can do nothing besides complaining how the jedi students of today aren't up to his standards, how nobody ever listens to his advice, how the weather is not good enough, how the tv has gone to Hell, etc... Given that he is a jedi master, the disapporval of the yound is a particularly important element with him. He's all like Socrates saying, "the young are getting worse and worse" (and given when Socrates said that, it must be rather bad by now... ) Vrook is the spitting image of Walter Matthau in "Grumpy Old Men", because all he can ever do is complain about *everything* - nothing is good enough anymore, and it's all worse because nobody values his opinion... Not that he could really blame anybody giving his charming disposition " After all, the only thing Vrook ever really succeeds in communicating to other people is his own inflated opinion of himself... Yes, some would say the same is true of Kreia, but I don't think so. It's true that Kreia is very judgmental, but unlike Vrook, she certainly knows that she is herself flawed, and as others have said before, she has been know to voice approval of other people, even her students, on occasion... And, of course, it speaks volumes that Vrook voices less approval for anyone ever than the head of the Sith academy <{POST_SNAPBACK}> One thing I remember about KotOR I Vrook was that when he did praise you, it felt like it meant something. As opposed to Zhar, who was all "congratulations" even if your skin was falling off and you eyes were blazing with the yellow hate of a thousand suns. What he says after you redeem Juhani in KotOR I was just... well, it actually made me really happy and I felt like I'd achieved something. Vrook in TSL I just loathed, as he didn't have any redeeming qualities whatsoever...

I agree with what you said... but "officially" doesn't register as incorrect in Word, which leads me to asume that officially there is such a thing as "officially" in the English langauge. Ha! I bet you didn't see a pun that hilarious coming!* I'm prescriptive when it comes to language anyway... As for Aimo's artwork: "The stuff of legends!!! Right Boo?" Seriously - though Revan will always be a male to me, I will forever see the Exile as the platinum haired female due to the sheer brilliance of this stuff. *Note: Before some terribly observant poster points out my error, I was being sarcastic.

God damn the quoting system *sniff* - can anyone explain to me why they weren't working? The Second Sith War is a more accurate name, because every battle involved a faction referring to themselves as a Sith, whether they be soldiers, officiers or dark Jedi. You wouldn't "just think it was just wars amongst the Sith" if you weren't trying to argue against me, as by its very nature, it's open to greater interpretation. A "civil war" is one of the most precise conflicts you can have - that's the problem with taking the "Jedi Civil War" at face value. You're using your Clone Wars logic again. Note: The Second Sith War isn't something I came up with [though given its simplicity I could have done ... I hope] it's also another name by which the Jedi Civil War is recognised by the Official Star Wars continuity... along with "War of the Star Forge." It's lumped in with the Sith War as: "The Old Sith Wars" Which is essentially short for "The Old Sith Wars against the Republic" - Since the Republic know that the Sith were attacking them, they don't need to add "Against the Republic". EDIT: Incidentally - Mothman's suggestion of the "War of Revan and Malak" (or whatever it was) - was perfectly acceptable, as every aspect of the conflict was directly caused by these two beings. The Jedi vs "Jedi"/Sith, the Republic vs Sith - everything. It's far more inclusive of the whole conflict than "Jedi Civil War" could hope to be. For a real world comparison, try the Napoleonic Wars. Did Napoleon wage the wars single-handedly? No. Were they started, continued and perpetuated by that individual? Yes.

(I am using bold for quotes, so as to avoid the mess of my previous posts

But Malak wasn't a Jedi during the war. He was a Sith. While many of the Sith were once Jedi who abandoned the order, the fact remains that once they become Sith or Dark Jedi, they abandon the beliefs of the Jedi and are no longer Jedi. So regardless of what one might think, calling the conflict the Jedi Civil War, regardless of why it was named that, is innacurate. End of story. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not so - as GhostofAnakin says, to the galaxy Jedi and Sith amount to pretty much the same thing - this was also evident in KotOR I Loading screen: "Many people distrust the Jedi almost as much as they do the Sith, they don't understand either group" "Jedi Civil War", if understood as "a war amongst Jedi" is an inaccurate term because Jedi vs Dark Jedi/Sith wasn't what the conflict was. Even if it had been called the "Jedi vs Sith War" it would have been inaccurate. The Republic was at war with the "Sith" (inclusive of dark Jedi and military) and the Jedi defended the Republic. *Thats* what we were shown in KotOR 1, *thats* what the general public seemed to see it as. Not a Civil War amongst Jedi factions, a "Civil War" within the galaxy. Never did you see a an average person say, "The Jedi bombed Telos", it was always "The Sith destroyed Telos" - not because they understood the difference between Jedi and Sith (they might well have thought the Sith were led by "Jedi") but because they understood that it was a war between the Republic and the Sith - not Jedi branches.

I know why it was called the Jedi Civil War... what annoys me is that the "why", at least the "why" that KotOR II seemed to be promoting, is flawed. The fact that it's not restricted to the Jedi aside for a moment, it's not even primarily waged by the Jedi - the Republic are fighting the war and the Jedi support the Republic. How can this sit so easily with everyone? "the antagonist of the war was the Revan Jedi camp versus the Jedi Order camp." Not so, I'm assuming you're saying that main two sides involved were the Revan Jedi and Order Jedi, play KotOR again. The Jedi Order was important to the Republic war effort, not the other way around. The centrepiece was the Jedi vs Sith action sure - but you don't name a war after its highlights... urm, not that war has any "highlights" so to speak. "I don't see how you can say that is different than the Clone Wars. If you want to get technical, the Clone Wars should have been called something that reflects the two combatants: The Republic and the Seperatists." I've shown you how I can say it's different, and I've already gotten "technical" (if you can call it that ) and given you the explanation as for why it wasn't given a name that reflects both combatants. Granted, it's probably hard to uncover what I'm saying in that mess of bodged quotations :ph34r: but I definately did show how it was different. Gist: The "Jedi Civil War" as a name is as different to the Clone Wars, the same way as it's different to the Sith War (Exar Kun's), or the Galactic Civil War. In the Clone Wars - the main event, the war, was primarily waged by the clones. It was also the first time Clones had ever been used in warfare, so it made sense that the wars should take the name from this new "cannon fodder". It didn't reflect both sides, but it certainly reflected every battle - which consisted of an "attack of the clones" time and time again... The name comes from the Republic's standpoint - not the Separatists, since they lost. Had the Separatists won (lets just pretend it wasn't stage managed for a moment), the wars would probably have been known as something else. In the Galactic Civil War, the war was between two opposing factions within the galaxy - one being the Empire the other being the Rebel Alliance. Would the Empire have referred to it as a Civil War? Unlikely, they'd have just seen the Rebels as a nuisance to be squished. Since the Rebels won however, the name given reflected what it had been to them. In contrast, the Jedi Civil War - if taken to mean "a war where Jedi turned against Jedi" - makes less sense, as the Jedi vs Jedi aspect wasn't what was presented to the Republic at large. I am not refuting that Jedi did not turn against Jedi. If taken to mean, "a galactic civil war instigated by "Jedi" (Sith)" then it's less of a problem, since that is (more or less) what it was and it becomes inclusive of the entire conflict. It also makes more sense in the context of what some characters say: Go-To for example: "It is unknown to many, but the Republic actually lost the Jedi Civil War" If the primary conflict was Jedi vs Jedi, why would it be the Republic that lost? (Heh, putting it in italics makes me think I'm writing a philosophy paper...) "I think you're taking the useage of the name way too literal." In other words, I'm right. Don't get me wrong, I have accepted the name and the reasons behind it being given - though I do have to put that "Republican propaganda" spin on it - I just think that a better name could have been chosen, one that more accurately reflected what was depicted in KotOR and required less explaination on the part of pretty much every NPC in the game. Since I enjoyed 90% of KotOR 2s story, background and otherwise awesome recreation of the GFFA, little things like this can bug me to the point where it becomes all consuming. I mean, I went through KotOR I with a tlkeditor and ruthlessly changed all references to "the Sith War" (Revan and Malak's) to "the Jedi Civil War", so as to create a more fluid link between the two games... which is all I want.

Selkath: "Coorseeqqqqelkooorkeldadudamor coorseqkorleeelkor seeeqeeelcorkorselkmorko kar Coorseeqqqqelkooorkeldadudamor coorseqkorleeelkor seeeqeeelcorkorselkmorko kar Coorseeqqqqelkooorkeldacoordudamor coorseqkorleeelkor seeeqeeelcorkorselkmorko kar Coorseeqqqqelkooorkeldadudamor kulkocoorseqkorleeelkor seeeqeeelcorkorselkmorko kar" <"Guess again">

Yes, I thought so too after someone mentioned the "chosen one" clich

*(Edit 3: given up trying to make the quotes work) Huh? Yeah, I don't dispute that - I think what the Jedi Council did was as morally ambiguous as you can get. Yeah, sorry, I was just going with the general consensus on his motivations that people like yourself have pieced together from the game. I could have and should have made that clearer. My bad. Fought in the war, yes. Exclusively? No. The war was Republic vs Sith, and included a Jedi vs dark Jedi aspect

Well, it was mentioned by various non-Force users (although Atton became one) that the reason why it was called that is because the galaxy of non Force users saw Jedi and Sith as the same thing. To them, everyone who used the Force was a "Jedi" so they only saw it as Jedi fighting with Jedi. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Yes, except they conviently forgot that it was a gigantic fleet made up of primarly non-Force sensitives, conquering planets belonging to the Republic - not the Jedi. It also contradicts every instance we see of how non-Force users refer to the war during KotOR 1. By the common people, it was most definately seen as a war *against the Republic*, not the Jedi - though the Jedi faught for the Republic. That's the problem - they're happy to say "its the common person's perspective" in one instance (Jedi/Sith confusion), yet then discard it in the other - sure, the *real* war might have been against the Jedi, but the galaxy as large didn't see it like that. And *nothing* can excuse the fact that Jedi Masters would also refer to it as the Jedi Civil War... I mean, aside from the fact that that was its official name whether they liked it or not... goddamit I hate it when I defeat my own points. Anyway, if it had been a good choice of name - such explanation would not have been needed. End of story. I posted a huge rant about it the week the game came out- if Chris Avellone couldn't change my opinion, then neither can you I understand the reasons for the name, I just think the reasons are flawed. One excuse given was: The opening crawl says that it is a "Jedi battle fleet" engaging over Taris, not a Republic fleet. Yet, by that logic, Luke Skywalker was the leader of the Rebel alliance because the opening crawl of Empire said, "Luke Skywalker, the leader of a small band of rebels", or that peace and justice would be restored to the galaxy because the Death Star would be blown up : "Custodian of the stolen plans that can save her people and restore peace and justice to the galaxy" says the opening crawl of ANH... the legend just gives you a feel for what's happening, not the actual facts and stats. KotOR I constantly pushes that it is the Republic under attack, that the Sith invaded the Republic, that the Sith are conquering the Republic. The Jedi are involved purely by default. The Second Sith War sounds better and has the less syllables than the Jedi Civil War. Anyway, I *can* accept the name (by using my interpretation), I just don't like it.

I don't see any problem with it - I was just contesting that when Mothman said, "all you can draw from Go-To's statement is this" you seemed to reply with (wtte of) "No, Go-To said this this and this, and from this we can see that Revan did this" and I didn't support the stance. *Shrug* It's late, I was skim reading this thread. Not at all - I just got the impression you were stating it as fact when it was spectulation. Essentially that's all I was pointing out - you'll notice I actually agree with what you were saying. "Having said that, it's probable" or whatever it was I was saying. Honestly? I wanted to build up towards a disciple/gospel bible joke then lost interest. Based on what I took from the game. Just an assumption after all. "I think it is safe...." Nothing Kreia said made me think Revan knew of the Sith menace before the Mandalorian Wars started. However, it's not entirely unlikely that he knew about it before he joined the Mandalorian Wars. He may very well have already become the Dark Lord of the Sith in the time between the intial Mandalorian attacks and his rebellion against the Council. We don't know when exactly Revan went to war after all. A week after the attacks? A month? A year? If you're suggesting that Revan might have always intended the Mandalorian Wars to be a means to convert Jedi to his *real* cause, then I can find no flaw. *nods eagerly* There are too many "Revan was a good guy" subscribers these days. Therein lies my problem with it. I thought the voice-acting was poor and the scenes featuring them (in particular the Council Trial scene) were badly done. They didn't seem to have any "special qualities" that made them Masters. Then again, no-one in the films aside from Yoda and Obi-Wan in "Old Ben" guise do. I don't know how half these Jedi can preach a code that they themselves don't follow, especially when TWO in partiuclar (Atris and Vrook) are council members. It's just TOO hypocritical for me. TOO idiotic. As well as the rest of the game. It had moments where it far outshone KotOR I, and the gameplay was a significant improvement. Yeah, one of the Jedi masters (forget which) definately mentioned Zhar, Dorak AND Vandar as having fallen on Katarr. Most people already thought Vrook was dead. It's one thing not to kill Jar-Jar, it's entirely another to bring him back from the grave. At the end of the day, I didn't particularly care about any of the masters from KotOR either. They seemed pretty "average" in themselves, and Vandar was just too cynical a rip-off. By bringing them back despite their "presumed death", it just makes the galaxy seem a much smaller place. I don't ask that they do everything right, just not so much wrong....

I think the problem is people are to quick to *assume* what KotOR II did was turn Revan into a hero no matter what. It didn't... he just came across to me as a corrupted Jedi turned Sith who saught to impose his own view on the universe. In fact his goals were very similar to Palpatine's, who according to the visual dictionary doesn't see himself as evil but as a saviour who has restored "order and unity" to the galaxy... sound familar? The only difference is that Revan saught to bring this about through war, Palpatine through politics. I hated the name "Jedi Civil War" however, as it gave all the wrong connotations - and if it had been a good choice of name, the developers wouldn't have had to have every single character explaining why it was called the Jedi Civil War, nor have options for your character to voice their confusion... why "the Second Sith War" couldn't make do I'll never know... in fact, it's almost enough to make me pretend KotOR II didn't happen. *Sigh* Jedi Civil War.... I have to tell myself that the main reason it's called that is because it was a galactic Civil War that was started by a fallen Jedi, as opposed to it being an actual "Jedi Civil War"... it's made worse by the fact you have Jedi Masters who know full well the difference between Jedi and Sith mouthing off about it as well... it wasn't even a conflict restricted to Jedi and Sith!!! It was "Sith armada vs the Republic"... not matter what KotOR II says to try and justify the name change *cries*

Beautiful! As was the Nameless One gag in the post made before. *Sigh* Kreia: The third is a creature of betrayals, but she must remain hidden for the time being an- Exile: [interrupts] So it's you? Kreia: Pardon? Exile: You already told me five minutes after meeting you that you used to be the Sith Lord in charge of these two, you've already told me how you were betrayed, now you're talking about a "she" who is a creature of betrayals. So you're the end boss aren't you? I mean, it could possibly be Atris, but I doubt she'd make the cut as a Sith Lord.... Kreia: Would you kill me if I said yes? Exile: Yes Kreia: (thinks) Then you are mistaken. AND Exile: Kreia your hand!!! Kreia: It is nothing Exile: No, your sacrifice was... hey, wait a darn second! Kreia: ... Exile: Why the smeg did he slice off your off-hand?

Atris is way older than the exile. Look at her hair. It's white. I'd say 10 yrs. apart or so. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I really don't get the impression that Atris' hair is white due to age. If it were, shouldn't it have been less white during the Exile's trial a decade before? In truth, I think the fact that Atris was already on the council while the Exile was still only a padawan is a much better argument for her being older. However, given Vandar's comment that the Exile is an "average student of the force", it may not be a relevant point... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think Atris was a bit elitist when it came to hair colour... she seems to have taken Padme's "get handmaidens who have a similar look to you" thing a bit too far. I mean, just IMAGINE the ad in the paper: "Jedi Master in desperate need of six individuals to protect her in her quest to revive the Jedi Order. Must be at home in cold environments. Proficiency in martial combat is expected and required. The physically impared will not be considered. Must be white skinned, snowy haired and five must be of pure Echani descent - no brothers... just sisters."

Not that I'm in the habit of butting into other people's arguments, and I honestly don't mean to be rude, but it seems that you're the one who hasn't been reading what Mothman was saying... the only fact that quote presents is that Revan left miltary facilities intact. The rest is Go-To's speculation and opinion based on that fact. To put the important bit in bold: Goto: I believe that Revan saw.... The majority of the statements made by characters are just speculation on their part, based on facts. You quote Disciple (and any other character that backs you up), as if suggesting that his word is gospel, yet he also states that the "Jedi Council were able to persuade Revan around to their way of thinking, and to have a change of heart", which is, to quote Master Vrook, "indisputable proof" that not everything the character's say is fact but merely based in fact. We do not know Revan's motivations, nor what he knew at what time, until he himself (or we are allowed to choose) tells us. Having said that, I think it is very probable that what the opinions presented to us on Revan are the truth (why else would Obsidian go to the trouble of having so many people tell us), but the point stands. (If that had already been cleared up then sorry for reitorating, I just hadn't seen your point contested and had the urge to do so) I think it is safe to assume that at the start of the Mandalorian Wars, Revan didn't know about the Ancient Sith Empire still being around - he just rushed into battle to protect the Republic. At some point *during* the wars, he uncovered Malachor V and the continued existance of the ASE, then decided to utilize the sith teachings himself in order to protect the Republic. Somewhere down the line, due in no small part to the dark side I'd wager, "protect the Republic" got confused with "protect the Republic's infrastructure yet destroy the Republic's ideals and supplant them with my own". Simply put, "his goals became tainted, his ideals became twisted"... which is exactly what Zhar said in the first place. A "fool" indeed...

Can we just establish right now that anything written in the Chronicles may as well be discarded? They're very badly written (well no, the style's fine, they're just inaccurate) summaries of events. "A human suffering from amnesia" is how they refer to mindwiped Revan - which isn't true at all, because had he been an amnesiac it would mean he had no memories, which wasn't the case... I mean, the confrontation with Malak wasn't: Malak: The Jedi Council didn't restore your wounded mind Revan they... urm, well they left it and dumped you on the Endar Spire and just hoped you'd think you were a Republic soldier. Nor was there the response: Revan: Actually it makes sense I'm Revan, since I remember nothing about my past and I'm having those visions and everything... Similarly, the "Jedi Master Revan" thing has been picked up on in this thread - when every single source in both KotOR 1 and 2 backs up Revan as being a knight at the time. Possibly as powerful as a master, sure, but not one. Finally, the background for Kreia doesn't make sense in the time-frame - ESPECIALLY if you take the light side ending. Kreia: Boo hoo, why did Revan fall, whyyyy!!!?? I feel so guilty! Revan: Urm, I'm light again now Kreia: WHYYYY??? Revan: Ok you just go evil for no reason then, crazy bint. More likely: Kreia is consumed with guilt after Revan returns to the galaxy as Dark Lord and at the head of an invasion fleet. She investigates and gets corrupted by Revan, who appoints her the guardian of Malachor V (and who'll carry on his legacy if something happens to him - it's obvious Malak didn't know the whole truth). Yeah, that sounds much more like what must have actually happened. Bah, I hate those chronicles so much. They're just wrong, wrong, wrooongggg!!! Rant over. - to stay on topic, I don't think the Exile's "full on proper Qui-Gon style" master ever makes an appearance in the game, in the flesh or referenced - we can probably just assume what we like in that regard. From what I gather, Kavar trained the Exile for a *time* - but not as his own padawan... Atris seemed to have an interest in the Exile's development for whatever reason, but I don't think she was the Exile's master. As for the Exile's strength in the Force... I think it's indisputable that it wasn't great. Everyone's focusing on Vrook, "oh, Vrook's a d**k, he doesn't know waht he's talking about,he's nasty about everyone" Yet it's Vandar who makes the point that the Exile is an "average student of the Force" - but that even so, she had something that set her apart (being the whole Force bondage thing) The Exile only started to become a "uber-Jedi" after she met Kreia - and that was due to the loss of the Force brought about by Malachor V, which meant that the Exile was able to draw her power from her companions. I thought that the Exile's condition was one of the things the game focused on the most.... I mean - it doesn't make the Exile weak, if anything it makes the Exile potentially the strongest Force wielder ever (irritatingly). Not to bring midi-chlorians into this (well, ok, I will) - but remember Qui-Gon: "Our midi-chlorians constantly speak to us, telling us the will of the Force... when you learn to quiet your mind, you'll be able to hear them speaking to you too" Kreia: "It is possible that perhaps our bond allows you to hear the Force, distantly, through me " So from this it can be gathered that via the Force bonds, the Exile is able to listen to OTHER PEOPLE's midi-chlorians.... combined. So she'd be listening in on all of Kreia's, Atton's, Handmaidens, Visa's, Bao-Durs, Disciple's... is it any WONDER that she's really strong when she wasn't before? Sure, she *always* made those Force bonds, but before when she "quieted her mind" the only thing she could hear was her own (not too numerous) set of midi-chlorians badgering her with the will of the Force. After losing her connection to the Force (which *must* result in her not being able to hear her own midi-chlorians anymore), when she quiets her mind, she's able to hear everyone else's midichlorians. Not as directly or as strongly as they can, obviously, but in combination with *other* people she's bonded to, it more than makes up for it. Think of it like this: You've got headphones in and you're listening to tacky pop. Suddenly, the battery runs out *bye bye Malachor* and you can't hear it anymore. Instead you can hear the rock music next door, the birds outside, your little sister being irritating in the room next to yours and the toliet flushing. The sounds were always there, but you couldn't hear them before - so you've gone from one sound (in the Exile's case an average Force strength) to many sounds (the Exile's rapid development into a super Jedi). Whilst I'm not the biggest fan of midi-chlorians, I don't deny their canon status just because "they're stupid"... Having said that, I think the Exile was always a very formidable warrior - even if not a particularly gifted Force adept. Oh and before I depart - to whoever mentioned it: why would the Exile be around 40? Mandalorian wars start in c 3963 BBY (End c 3960) - KotOR 2 is set in c 3951 BBY. Assuming the Exile was... ohhh, I dunno, twenty, when he/she went off to fight, that would only make him/her in their early 30s. Revan was a *very* young leader remember (he's still referred to as "young" and "kid" seven years later in KotOR 1) and the Exile seems to be presented as even younger than that. Ok, I rambled too much and too long. Sorry for subjecting everyone to my madness. TTFN.

Urm, yeah- exactly that. Much like how Anakin "had the Force" when he was a nine year old kid and racing pods. Did you see him using Force chokes on his opponents? No. Did that mean he wasn't using the Force to win? No. I mean, as Bastila tells you when you first meet her- only a Jedi could have accompished the things Revan did on Taris, and only by drawing heavily on the Force. Was he zapping and healing and mind tricking? Nope, but he was probably experiencing a great degree more "luck" than his enemies don't you think? No he wasn't, and besides, he didn't get amnesia after Malachor V... so... Though, having said that - I do think the Jedi Council *thought* Revan's connection to the Force had been lost (hence Bastila's very real surprise when she finds out you're tapping into it) and were just intending on using him as a faithful Republic lapdog whose mind Bastila could dive into to uncover the secrets of the Star Forge. Anyway- as for the question: Was Revan the ultimate Sith Lord? Allow me to quote from the Revenge of the Sith Novel: Rest, my case I do. (Interesting how that seems to mirror the Exile/Nilihus and the True Sith that Kreia kept harping on about... seems like the KotORs are going to link to the movies....) Revan is/was awesome. But even if you want to think he was more powerful in the Force than Palpatine (I tend to place them at an equal level) you cannot say he was a better Sith Lord than Palpatine... I mean, like it or not- Revan was redeemed (official ending) and was never really fully consumed by the dark side... such characteristics do not befit the "Ultimate Sith Lord"...

Said it before, but according to the Official Star Wars fact file, the Sith Empire was in existance before the arrival of the first Dark Jedi - the Rakatan Empire had authority over the *Sith Empire*, which in turn outdated the founding of the Republic by 75,000 years - and therefore outdated even their oppressors. It certainly wasn't the "big badass evil empire with the Dark Lords of the Sith" that we would come to know. But it was "the Sith Empire"... just minus the Lords of the Sith (since the Sith were the Lords of themselves...) I mean, it might be wrong - but the file is *very* comprehensive... so I'm doubting it's wrong.

Lucas has been saying ever since releasing the title, "the Sith want revenge because they used to rule the galaxy and the Jedi overthrew them". And actually, you'll be aware of what Palpatine says in AotC: "I will not let *this* Republic which has stood for a *thousand years* (not 25 thousand years) be split in two" and also what one of the queen's advisors says in AotC, "there hasn't been a full scale war since the formation of the Republic" Why do you think Bioware were just allowed to use the "Darth" title wily-nilly? Do you think they didn't *know* about Darth Bane supposedly being the first Darth? Nope, just didn't care, because they knew Lucas had thrown the Jedi vs Sith comics onto the Canonical trash-heap and I'm sure they were given a heads up on the whole new "background to the galaxy". Therefore I'm predicting KotOR 3 ends with the True Sith overthrowing the Republic and ruling the galaxy, whether your PC is light or dark - then 1,000 years before the Phantom Menace, the Jedi rise up again and beat the Sith (who are also infighting quite a lot), thinking they've wiped them out. Darth Bane (someone CALLED Darth Bane, not the same Darth Bane from the comics... after all, Lucas did invent the name... even tho it's pretty simple) survives and reinvents the Order. The Republic is re-established and the Jedi are reinstated as its protectors. Thus this fits the critera of Palpatine saying "this republic that has stood for a thousand years" (technically it has) And also fits in with Obi-Wan saying "for over a thousand GENERATIONS the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic" - since they were then they went through a few millenia of being surpressed by the Sith before they overthrew them finally. It makes sense that the Jedi see the Republic as something that has existed for many more millenia than the politicians do. They would see the Republic as the very spirit of democracy in the hearts of the people, that refused to die even when the Sith had conquered all and rose up again. The politicians see it more simply: a great Republic fell - then they established another Republic, and they'll count its founding from that day, as opposed from 25, millenia ago.

I'd use it to beat Derren Brown at his own game. That guy is just too awesome to not be the anti-christ/psychic/a Jedi Master.

Urm, that's not what I said. KotOR should remain KotOR *weeps* Anyways - I agree with the dude who said we should play an unknown/average Jedi at some point down the line in this series: maybe with the ultimate goal of saving a planet. Yeah, that's right- a SINGLE planet in the entire galaxy. Obviously it would still be as large as the previous games - just loads more areas in one planet - and the locations could still be diverse... i mean, just look at the variation on Earth. In principle, I'm definately with just playing a regular guy who is *completely* yours as opposed to a character wtih anything defined. I just think (after KotOR 3- which would *finish* the original KotOR arc - thus its not a case a of taking the story back instead of forwards, its a case of "the story's finished, lets go back") a direct prequel would be cool. After that they should leave the Revan/Exile timeperiod completely. Actually, one thing I really want to start seeing in Star Wars games are *less damn token planets* - make up some new ones and just throw out all of the established ones from a game. Tattooine: WAY overused Hoth: overused Dantooine: overused Yavin: overused Nar Shadda: overused In fact, every planet that has been mentioned in the classic/prequel trilogy gets used in some other EU source several billion times. Stupid. There are thousands of *systems* in the galaxy, let alone planets. I mean, GOD. How small do they want us to think this galaxy is?

Can I just point out that I totally agree that KotOR 3 needs to be a sequel to KotOR 2... I did say that at the end of my post. I also like the idea of KotOR games that go even further back in Star Wars history etc- I just think it would be nice to have one last play through as Revan (since I think he's effectively ruled out as a player character in any sequels) As for: "Some good points but you'll have the staunch defenders who don't want "their" Revan defined. I say developing a male and female storyline would be interesting but remember there's not very many options since he (or she) can't be too giving or too devoted to the Dark Side so you'll have Kreia all over." Kreia wouldn't be there - Kreia wasn't Revan's only master and by the time the game would start, Revan's operating independantly of her. As for not wanting Revan defined... well, I have my own ideas on who Revan is and what he did before and during the Mandalorian wars which would be messed up by a prequel game most likely, at the same time - I'd just really like to play as "my" character again. You could still go LS/DS and have a whole number of different choices to make throughout the game, helping you define Revan the way *you* want. Hmm, anyway, I wasn't saying it should be done so much as the idea isn't as terrible as everyone seems to think. Providing the execution is good. Oh and I'd LOVE a KotOR game set in Exar Kun times... hehe - mainly becuase it would completely rewrite the banal TotJ storyline to make it fit in with KotOR I and get rid of the ridiculous insect ships and magical amulets and make the Sith War an *actual war* as opposed to three skirmishes and a group of suns exploding. And a younger Jolee as a PC member would be quite fun... mainly to see how different his perspective is from his older self...

However the catch is that the Mandalorians would of conquered the Republic without Jedi Intertevention, and would of become even stronger with the combined power of their race and the Republic. So unless the True Sith were counting on Jedi, or rather Revan to intervene then it makes no sense for them to encourage the Mandalorians along. Also note that Palpatine orchestrated both wars, with the Clone wars paving the way for the Galactic war to further cement his power in every corner of known space. He planned all that, now why wouldn't Revan have the same strategic forethought? I'll go along though and assume the True Sith predicted the Jedi's involvement, however if they had enough foresight for this then surely they would had the foresight to see that by allowing the Jedi to go war they would be strengthening the Jedi Order. Revan and the Exile become the two most powerful Jedi(or para-sith, not True Sith) in the known galaxy within the span of 10 years. Imagine how much more powerful it would of become in the next 50 years with Revan and the Exile teaching hundreds of new padawans? Sure alot of Jedi died in the two wars, but most of them were the weak ones, untrained in battle. Niether Revan nor the Exile(who are niether extremist Sith or Jedi, seeing as the facts say that even being totally DS they still strive to keep the Republic intact and in fighting form) would allow new students to be unlearned in the ways of battle. So if the True Sith are responsible for encouraging the Mandalorians then either way they ****ed themselves. Regardless, you never gave any reasons why Revan wouldn't scheme the two wars the way I posted previously besides "IT sure wasn't Revan". <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Aye. I've always been partial to the Revan/Palpatine parallel. However I do think KotOR 2 is trying to imply that was the True Sith who went to the mandalorians - despite the flaws in that logic that you've picked out. *Shrug* Who knows.

I've been reading a few old posts lately, mainly along the lines of "what should be the next game in the series?" or, "What do you think is going to happen in KotOR 3"? That kind of thing - and one thing I've noticed is that whenever someone puts forward the idea of a "Kotor prequel, set around the Mandalorian Wars" the usual response is: "Oh, no no no, that's a terrible idea, we all know how that plays out" I just don't understand this at all. A prequel to KotOR would not only be in Star Wars tradition but also help further define the character of Revan the way the *player wants him/her to be defined*. Look at this section from the chronicles: "Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks, he soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on." Now, take away the "Jedi Master" part (ridiculous mistake) and make it "Revan and party move surrepptitiously" and you have the KotOR prequel packaged and ready to go. (well, the foundations) It fits the criteria of previous games: 1) Planet hopping looking for certain things. 2) Takes place during a great conflict 3) Ends with the discovery of some big evil thing So we'd be playing Revan in the time-period: <<<The start of Mandalorian Wars to Revan sending forth the call of arms to the other Jedi/joining the Mandalorian wars proper (playing as Revan as a fleet commander/battle tactician >>> The beauty of this is that it would allow people to create Revan (though I can see people being fussy about having their name defined) as a 1st level Jedi however they wanted. We'd also get the usual "myriad of diverse NPCS" and Malak would hopefully be one of them. Now I know what you're thinking: "But Revan's character is defined as a tactical genius etc etc - he's meant to be really charismatic etc etc we'll feel forced into choosing certain attributes by the story" Not really. In KotOR 1 you're supposed to have a phenomenal connection to the Force, yet you can choose to give yourself a wisdom and charisma of 8, be a Jedi Guardian and have about 2 FP. Besides, if they upped the difficulty of the game they would be able to give you certain bonuses (like charisma points always cost one attribute point at generation, as opposed to going up in value) just for being who you were. After all, all the NPCs in KotOR II had a "special ability" and I don't see any reason why the main character shouldn't either. I mean, as it stands- I wouldn't mind creating a character to fit Revan's "criteria", but I understand why other people would get a bit irritated by this. That aside- we all know that the main reason we play this series is for the Star Wars feel of the story (even if it did deviate slightly in KotOR 2, but just slightly), awesome gameplay and the fact that the fighting looks cool... ok well they're my reasons. It really isn't a particularly hardcore "role-playing game" in the sense that you define everything about your character. In KotOR 1 and 2 there were parts of the characters that we had no control over. I see no reason why this would be a problem happening again. So we'd have certain things set: your name and your eventual destiny. However, what we should be allowed to influence (I feel, since Revan is to a great many people their "true" character in the KotOR series) is the journey and the alignment and motivations of Revan as he/she travels. As it stands, most people have this view that Revan is Quite a "light-side" motivation if you will. However, just because this is what the majority think doesn't mean that has to be his reasons for flipping out. Maybe over the course of his journey he has grown increasingly disillusioned with the Republic and has had enough of "weak senators" being in control and wants to rule it himself and his true motivation is out of wanting to save the Repubic but wanting to rule the Republic and crush any threats ( ) that are out there. Maybe he was always evil inside, and like Palpatine has manouvered himself into a position of power (in this case head of third of the Republic fleet as opposed to Supreme Chancellor) in order to act as the foundations for his eventual bid for domination of the galaxy. Or maybe he was just always a nice guy at heart and only wants to use the dark side for a certain period of time before moving back to the light (silly as that is). Hey, what if the character he is romancing is brutally torn from him and that's what drives him to the dark side? My point is there are a whole *wealth* of reasons for Revan's eventual decision/s and I don't think that we should be limited to just *one* and I think, given the emotional attachment quite a lot of people have to the character of Revan as "theirs" they should be allowed to determine them as opposed to being told in KotOR 3 "Revan did this this and this for this reason". The argument that you couldn't have two possible endings (light and dark) is invalid. Though on the surface there would be only one ending (Revan joining the Mandalorian wars/being given command of a third of the Republic forces) the actual endings themselves would be far different depending on your alignment: LS: Plays up the tragedy of a person who is sacrficing himself to evil in order to save the galaxy he feels the Jedi can no longer protect. He will become "evil" as the war progresses but he certainly hasn't yet. DS: Plays up Revan's success in manouvering into a position of great power, from which he can begin his conquest of the galaxy. Already pretty damn evil. *Remember that Revan doesn't find Malachor V at the END of the wars as a lot of people think, he finds it and becomes the Dark Lord of the Sith before he joins in with the Mandalorian Wars - the whole reason behind his "call to arms" is to "seduce an army of Jedi, loyal to him alone"* Now I'm not for a minute suggesting that this is going to happen - I'm just trying to say that the idea of a prequel game is *not* a bad one at all and would probably be brilliant. That's not to say it would have to be exactly, or even remotely like what I've outlined above. I'm just giving an example of a prequel game that wouldn't be crap. (Well, that I feel wouldn't be crap, heh) So, any thoughts? (Note: I don't think this should be the next game, I mean they need to finish the current story arc first. I just feel this *should* eventually get looked at in the KotOR series - even if it's years down the line)