Ulicus

Um, actually, HK explicitly states that he believes that the battle of Malachor V could have made Revan reflect on other ways than genocide to achieve his goals. Thus, HK-47 was born. Even if HK is wrong, he wouldn't make this assumption if he had been created before Malachor V. So, yes, it's a continuity mistake no matter how you look at it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ok, fair enough. I'll just choose not to listen to that dialog... (well I'll listen to it, then reload and not listen to it) As for the Mandalorian titles... yuk. Not fond of that idea- personally I always liked the notion that the Mandalorians tried to present Mandalore as unkillable- so if Mandalore was about to face death he'd leave his mask behind (or if he died it would be on him obviously) and then whatever mandalorian happened upon him would know that "their tradition must continue" and just take on the mantle of Mandalore. Thus Mandalore would be presented as this ever-living being (in terms of tradition, obviously they'd know he was mortal)... kinda like what happens with the Phantom. Of course that was thrown out with KotOR2 (probably other EU stuff before too) saying they were selected (it makes more sense, but it's not as cool). Of course, Canderous also says "I *am* too Mandalore, I found his helmet!" which I found funny.

Like drawing thousands of Jedi over to the dark side and making them swear allegiance to him? Even if Revan was *immune* to the Dark Side and "incorruptible" as too many people are assuming, he'd have to be REALLY stupid to corrupt thousands of other Jedi in order to protect the galaxy from Tyranny and evil. "Oh look, we've beaten the true Sith, lets go back to being good... wait, awww crap, I forgot not everyone else is able to resist falling to the dark side like me..." One thing Revan wasn't was stupid. He saw the True Sith, thought they were a threat, decided to learn their ways in order to beat them. Then realised "hey, actually - I can protect the galaxy far better if I'm in control of everything". From there it is just a slippery slope. As George Lucas says of Anakin: "It is the greed of wanting to protect the ones he loves and stopping things from changing that leads him to the dark side. He eventually realises he can use his power not only to protect his loved ones but also control the universe" I see that mirrored in Revan's choices. Also: Chronicles: Revan developed an evil yet brilliant plan Chronicles: As Revan plundered these tombs, he fell deeper into the dark side Do I think Revan was *consumed* by the dark side? No. But he was definately in sync with it and all too willing to use it to achieve his aims. That doesn't make him a nice person or an anti-hero, that just makes him a stronger-than-usual dark-sider and villian. Hk-47 "You display much of the cruelty of my beloved master" Revan wasn't a nice bloke(gal). I agree, but this is nothing to do with him being a good-guy in bad-guy clothing, this is to do with him being intelligent. Why destroy the institutions of government when you can just subvert and control them? Makes everything much easier than blowing it all up and starting from scratch. Disagree. 1. being "truly fallen" doesn't make you a destructive moron, it depends entirely on the person 2. The Star Forge could *only* be used as a temporary device with which to "unite" (read:subvert) the Republic. If Revan COULD have used it forever, he would have done. It could build ships much quicker than anything else after all. Revan didn't want to use the Star Forge any more than neccessary because he knew what happened if you did. He'd seen what had happened to the rakatan empire. i doubt he wanted history to repeat itself - he wanted his rule to *last* and his 'protection' to endure. It makes Malak's speech at the end "you were blind Revan, blind and stupid!" all the funnier, because it just shows Malak's ignorance even more. Revan knew full well the true capacity of the Star Forge, he just also knew the consequences of unlocking it. I'm aware it's not fan-invented, but it *is* fan-assumed, after all, Kreia would say that *she* never truly fell. When she blatantly did/has. As for the person who said "Bioware" knew Revan better. Couldn't have said it better myself. Also if Revan never fell then it COMPLETELY DESTROYS the theme of Redemption of the LS KotOR game. And makes the DS KotOR game (when you clearly *HAVE* fallen to the dark side) ridiculous since "Revan's will means he can't fall."

The vitality regeneration argument thing is annoying me. This is based on Star Wars RPG. Vitality is *not* the same as hit points in Star Wars RPG, though it does essentially stand in for them. When you get "hit" by a lightsaber (or anything) in Star Wars RPG and your vitality is knocked, it means you've just narrowly missed being hit by it. The character simply expends energy to avoid taking a direct hit. Why? because if you get hit by a lightsaber (or blasted generally) you're dead according to the movies and the movies are canon. That's what vitality is. (according to SWRPG) Why else do you think you only fall *unconscious* (besides it being a blatant game mechanic) if you lose all your VP? You're too shattered to continue- and the game doesn't let the character's have their "actual hitpoints" broken into until everyone's down and the enemy can finish them off. Sure... you get "hit" by the blaster bolts and lightsabers and stuff in the game, but people would just get confused if you lost apparent "hit-points" by "not getting hit". I mean, ok the vitality regeneration bugged me a little for making things easier but at the end of the day, it made sense to me.

Or a DS player who gets him too late to find enough moments to influence him... I still think if you had a high repair skill you should have been able to "hack influence" into HK-47. I mean, everyone deserves to hear his story... I did get the soundfile of his description of the past party members on the net though. Funny. Apart from the fact that in a moment of geekness I said, "No, Bastila and Revan kissed in the dormatories not the cargo hold!" I suck.

I always found that weird. Surely Bastila, as Revan's apprentice would be the the one who led the Sith in his/her absence. That's the way it works... and if there *was* a dispute, she wouldn't 'serving' anyone. She'd be dead. Why was she wearing Jedi robes (maybe dark jedi robes, but i couldnt tell through the blue) in the holocron as well? That bugged me. Should have kept her in the dark jedi "robes" from the last game... I mean, they were cool and looked better on her and made her look far more evil.

I heard he put them in to get people to stop asking him to make "Jedi an official religion"... I mean, I might have imagined this but I'm sure he said on the commentary for TPM, "you want to know why you can't use the Force huh? Well it's because you have no midichlorians they only exist in the Star Wars galaxy, so stop being such idiots!" Actually, I think I definately imagined that. Weird. Whatever, they don't bug me. Doesn't detract from the Force at all imho.

Um, what? HK in KOTOR 2 says he was built after Malachor. Mandalore the Ultimate, was dead then, and thus HK couldn't have faught him after Malachor. KOTOR implys his creation before Malachor, because that's when Mandalore the Ultimate was still alive. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You meant that the other way around right? KotOR *implies* his creation after Malachor, but doesn't explicitly state it: "You created me shortly after you and your apprentice began your war to conquer the galaxy" Now when is that hmmm? Everyone assumed it was *after* the Mandalorian Wars, I'd say it was pretty much at the start of the Mandalorian wars, especially with what we know about Revan's motivations from KotOR2. (also think about it- why would Revan send HK-47 into "Mandalorian Space" after there WASN'T ANY MANDALORIAN SPACE LEFT????!!!! The clans had disbanded after the MW. "Mandalorian Space" was no more. Also, I think Revan would want to assassinate mandalorians during the Mandalorian Wars as opposed to after them) I haven't had enough influence with HK to get his KotOR 2 conversations so there might be some confusion. Also, where the HELL has this "Mandalore the Ultimate" stuff come from? It sounds distinctly Supershadow in origin...

Never says that in KotOR and the Sith'Ari prophesy was made up by Bioware. That's posted by a fan who just assumed the two prophesies were the same. Simply says: One day, the Sith'Ari, the perfect being will lead us. The stories say he will destroy us but also make us stronger than ever. NOTHING about balance. The wording implies that it is THROUGH destruction that the Sith become stronger, meaning that it's not Darth Vader. Besides, Vader didn't lead the Sith - ever. If that sounds like anyone from the EU it's Darth Bane. Since he destroyed the Sith as it was, but also made it stronger than ever by implimenting the rule-of-two. I think the Sith'Ari prophesy has been hijacked to play a key role in the KotOR games however and seems to fit in with the Exile. Could be Revan, but I'm doubting it currently. I do think that the KotOR games are going to show us how the Force became "unbalanced" and will predict "the coming of the Chosen One" at the end. Do I have evidence? Nope, it would just be cool.

Yeah...the dialogue. :ph34r: <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, you know what Lucas says... "The films are meant to be taken as silent movies, the action is what does the talking" Shame I can't mute the voices and keep the score and sound effects. Nah, I actually like the prequels. Heretic that I am. Part of me just says Lucas should release the Original Trilogy unaltered on DVD, then remake the OT so he can have *that* one looking exactly like he wants without ****ing up the original for everyone else. (as it happens I quite like the special edition changes too... except that greedo shoots first, it's the only one that bugs me)

The True Sith Empire aside for a moment (which I find perfectly plausible- after all, it was Naga Sadow and his followers who fled to Yavin- *not* the entire Sith Empire... and I doubt Ludo had the ENTIRE Sith Empire with him in his fleet when the Republic came and devastated it) I don't like that just because Revan wanted to fight the True Sith and save the galaxy as his *intial* motivation that people think he's "good really" or "didn't fall to teh dark side". Whilst I'm sure it was his original intention to; "use the sith teachings against the True Sith, fight fire with fire. Bring about a New Order of Sith to beat them." we all know that the path to hell is paved with good intentions. An excerpt from my *revised* "Oversight" fanfic (I wrote it ages ago and updated it to match KotOR2- this isn't a plug, it just sums up my thoughts on Darth Revan pre-mindwipe) pretty much explains my thoughts on Revan's motivations: "The Dark Lord could not help but feel his usual dark calm disturbed by a rush of anger towards the beings that had sought to stunt his development as a Jedi so. The very people who had all but ignored the plight of this Republic - that they now fought so valiantly to

"new mistake According to KOTOR, HK was built before Malachor. However according to KOTOR 2 HK is built after Malachor. Which can't be correct because HK is supposed to fight Mandalore the Ultimate, and since Mandalore the Ultimate was killed by Revan at Malachor Hk couldn' t have faught him. Unless of course HK got beat by a Dead Man" Unless you take the viewpoint, as I did- that Revan went evil right at the start of the Mandalorian Wars and thus his war to conquer the galaxy actually began then. To be honest, I think that was more likely a mistake of Bioware than Obsidian. Since Canderous' stories made it clear there was no longer a Mandalore.

I don't think so... The Rakatan were gone by the time the Jedi emerged. At least, that's the current story- who knows? Anyway, yeah, having just defended that site, I have to say having read more stuff that there are a whole bunch of mistakes, at least from the EU Sith knowledge I have. (edited) The timeline is still right though. I could hardly call it a good site after reading that "Invader" rubbish *spits*. WoD and Star Wars mixed? What the hell?

Check this. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Correct timeline except on a ninor thing they overlooked. The Sith were found 1000 years before the Great Hyperspace War so around -4,000 the Jedi discover the Dark Side, fight over it and the dark side are exiled/flee, find the Sith Race and start the Sith Empire. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No they weren't. The timeline is right on DLOS. The Sith Empire had been around for MILLENIA by the time of the Great Hyperspace war, not a millenium. The Great Schism occurs several *centuries* after the Jedi order is founded in 25,000 BBY, so probably anywhere between 24,500-300 BBY. (This information comes from the UK Official Star Wars Fact File and since DLOS matches it, I'm inclined to think that they're right)

Nope, it was Cadderly. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In the party-combat training basement at Candlekeep (with Obe the illusionist) in the prologue there is a cleric named Canderous. You had: Canderous, Osprey, Mordaine, Arkanis, Deder.

LS Bastila: I must admit I thought that maybe I was being tested to become a Jedi Master LS Bastila: I am the commander of this mission I'll have you know LS Bastila: My battle meditation ability has helped the Republic dozens of times. Carth points out that she acts like a "spoiled child" right at the start. She does improve over the course of the game though. KotOR 2 has Though I might have got that wrong. That's what I remember it saying. That's just your assumption. I don't think you can prove that Revan is greater than Anakin after the lava bath. I know it's an assumption. The topic's about who I *think* is better. Based on what I've seen, Revan is the more powerful. I mean, just going from GL's comments on Vader (in the movie commentary) makes me think he's not that super. GL: Vader has lost a lot of power in the Force GL: The Emperor wants a new, better apprentice, I mean, he thought Anakin was going to be great but that kind of all went wrong and Anakin's no way near as good as he could be Of course, given Anakin's amazing strength in the Force beforehand it's debatable as to just how "weak" this would make him, so yes, you could say that even crippled he is stronger than Revan. Generally I would think that Darth Vader is more than a match for all the modern era Jedi (except his own son) despite being crippled. I don't think he'd last long against Revan however. I don't think Luke would either- but that would purely be to do with his lack of training in respect to Revan, as opposed to not being on par with him in terms of natural ability. IThough really I don't know how "Force strength" works being passed on... does the child inherit all the Force potential of one parent? the sum of half their parents potential added together? This is where your abstract argument has a lot more merit Just makes things easier. Maybe. Or he could have meant it literally, when he knew he was going to die and there was no stopping it. Well, of course he meant it literally. I meant that it just adds another level that the audience can interpret. Assuming the theory was right of course. No question. He is the son of the Force like you mention later on. He is, but I don't think his survival was about him being the Son of the Force. I think his survival was about him having to complete his destiny. It wouldn't have mattered if he had no Force-talent, if the Force needed him for something else down the line, it wouldn't let him die. A good theory, but what if Revan isn't the son of the Force? Can Revan's presence be that of the Force? What if he's just another powerful Jedi/Sith like Qel-Droma, not the son of the Force like Anakin? What if Bastila's presence was just coincidence? I wouldn't expect he was a son(or daughter, heh) of the Force, I think that is a distinct "Anakin" trait... though who knows, maybe he's Anakin's ancestor. I've always assumed that Shmi herself was incredibly Force sensitive (in the original [and far superior, I'm shocked that they altered it] script for TPM this was overtly portrayed, but they left it out... she was also called Shmi Walka for some reason). I mean, you'd have to have to be able to "feel the Force" to bear its child surely... Anyway, I would say Revan was much more powerful than the likes of Qel-Droma. In fact, I'd go as far to say that only Anakin was superior to him: but this is purely because of my bias of Revan being "my" character. I accept that. I was just saying that the Force has really potent destinies mapped out for some people and that it is impossible for them to escape it. So, the Force has decreed that Revan is to be the one to stop the True Sith perhaps, therefore Revan cannot die until this occurs. It's just an idea and is most likely wrong. Pure speculation. As of right now K3 is canned, so I know nothing of Revan's actions. None of us do, just speculating. Plus K3's just on hold. As *if* they won't make a KotOR III. Lucasarts knows where the money's at. Like I asked before, could Revan be the son of the Force? Kreia, who is known to exaggerate, is merely describing a powerful Jedi, not the son of the Force? For me, Revan is a powerful Jedi like Qel-Droma or Kun or Kenobi; I doubt it, however that his actions echo that of the Force. Kenobi? Heh. He's above average at best. Became a Jedi Knight at 25. Jedi Master at 38. By the time he was 57 (ANH) he was a pretty terrible duelist, at least in comparison with the likes of Qui-Gon Jinn, who at 60 was giving Maul as good as he got. Mace Windu is 50 in AotC, and he's being all awesome with a blade - and don't get me started on Yoda. Also bear in mind that Mace Windu was the equal (supposed to be) of Yoda on the Jedi Council and had trained at least 3 padawans by the time he was 40 (I do think this is ridiculous EU trash however... as if you could be trained yourself, and train that many in so short a time), whereas Obi-Wan had trained up one padawan to knight level by the time he was 38. Nahh I'm just messing. It can't all be done by age. I just take Obi-Wan to be a kind of slow and steady sort of guy, who didn't rush anything. I mean, he would have to be a pretty damn powerful Jedi to take on Anakin and win. Oh... wait a second... he beat Anakin whilst Anakin was in his *prime*. Puts a whole new spin on the Revan vs Vader debate... hehe. From now on "Revan would beat Anakin just because he's more experienced and would find some way to manovuer Anakin into lava". I don't know the distance between the throne room and the hanger in the Death Star, but remember it wasn't completed and probably was less distance than it was meant to be. But I know the long distance between the bridge and the exit of an Indictor ship, and that is a fair distance to carry a heavily armored body. It was built to be about 1.5 times the size of the first Death Star (I think :S). The fact that it wasn't completed wouldn't change the space between the throne room and the hanger- since those areas obviously *were* completed. Second: The Death Stars are considerably bigger than Indictor ships. Even half built Death Stars. I wouldn't say Revan was as heavy as Vader. That guy was a giant!!! Doesn't matter really. I wouldn't find it hard to believe Bastila dragging Revan to a ship whilst the rest of the ship's crew ran around like headless chickens whilst Malak was blowing them up. I could pose the same question in a different context: Why was Revan stupid enough to think "loyalty" from Malak when Revan, as his master, taught him the Sith policy of power and humiliated him by programming HK to call him "meatbag" all the time and not let him "use" the Star Forge? Revan wasn't expecting Malak to turn on him when he got boarded. Yet Malak claimed the Title of Sith Lord, which means that no matter how you get rid of your master, you are the next Sith Lord. The thing that foiled Malak's plan was that Revan was alive. Well... you could. I don't argue that Revan messed up with that, I've invented my reasons as to why he wasn't able to sense Malak's betrayal- but they are just that, inventions and I wouldn't want to pass them off as anything from the KotOR "canon". Heh. Those inventions aside, I think that Revan would have expected Malak to confront him directly. Since it was clear that what he taught him about the Sith way was about direct confrontation with your master to see who is the strongest. Also, Revan went to considerable lengths to hide just how powerful he was from Malak (according to the Chronicles anyway, and the same can be assumed from Malak's attitude of "you are stronger than you ever were during your reign as the dark lord" nonsense). But yeah, you're right. Revan's bad. But, I don't think the Emperor ever would have been in a position where Vader could have overthrown him had it not been for the Luke vs Vader duel. I can't say that with certainty obviously, but the Emperor had survived 23 years with Vader as his apprentice without being usurped. That clearly shows that Vader didn't think he could take on his master. Since it's obvious he wants to (from what he says in Empire), it's not just a case of him being loyal. I have to say though, I absolutely loved the last sentence of that paragraph: "The reason Malak's plan to kill Revan failed was because Revan lived"(paraphrased) beautiful! :D No. Like you said, a definiton has been added to Force Sensitivity, and adding new definitions loses the meaning of "abstract". Something at first at was intangible is now defined by "Force decibels" where you, at your root self, have bacteria that channel it for you. But like I said, to each his own, and you can respect them if you like, and I'll continue ignoring them. Yeah, but the *Force* is still intangiable. The *Force* is still abstract. It is the means living beings communicate with the Force that is no longer abstract, they can hear it because of the midichlorians whispering to them. I certainly don't *respect* them.... I just can't see how you can ignore them because... well, they're there. So I've interpreted them in the least 'Star-Trek' way I can. But put it this way: if midichlorians weren't around, there would be far more people in the Revan could beat Vader camp. I mean, everyone used to think Vader was badass, but you didn't get anyone thinking he was the most powerful Force user ever until after they saw TPM. (well except me... but that's just because I saw him deflect a blaster shot with his hand when I was 6 and therefore swore to love him forever) This rides on the assumption that you think RoTJ Luke is weak. But you need to remember Luke is the grandson of the Force, and he probably is as powerful as Anakin Skywalker was. I certainly don't think Luke Skywalker was weak. He was the most powerful Force user in the galaxy! I don't know how 'Force in genetics' works, but they way I'd work it: The Force + Shmi = Anakin So, Anakin is in a way... "half Force" (I know that's a ridiculous thing to say, but you know what I mean right?) He has the Force's nose... and the Force is evidently a blond. Anakin + Padme = Luke/Leia Luke/Leia is therefore "quarter-Force". So not as powerful as Anakin was. This is assuming you view it like "race" however. Like, how I'm "quarter-polish" because my grandad was polish. I'm not as polish as he was. Which might not be correct. The way "Force strength" is passed on might be like physical features. That is to say you either have your mum's eyes or your dad's, you don't have a mix. (Well I know nothing about genetics, so it's probably possible). So, even though I'm not as polish as my grandad, I still have the same smile that he had. So it could be a case of Luke and Leia inheriting *all* of Anakin's Force strength. I don't know. But until said otherwise *and they might test Luke/Leia for Force strength in Episode III* I'll assume that Anakin was naturally more gifted with teh Force than his offspring. If a pianist gets his fingers cut, then he couldn't feel them. Vader feels the Force (quite powerfully I might add, being able to transmit Chokes from one Stardestroyer to another). Like I said before, a mediocre analogy. Argghhh! Because you've not understood it. Pianist= Anakin Fingers= Midichlorians Piano= The Force The fingers are what allow him to play the piano. The midichlorians are what allow him to feel the Force. The more midichlorians he has, the better he can feel the force. The more fingers he has, the better he can play the piano. So no more insulting my analogies! *cries* And can I just take the moment once more to say that I am not in any way saying Vader is *weak*. Vader is incredibly strong in the Force. I just think that Vader is weaker than Revan. What did I make up? You started arguing against a point I hadn't made... at least it seemed like that. *shrug* obviously doesn't matter, whatever it was. Anakin probably reaches the zenith of his strength in Ep 3. I'd agree there. I just think it's a shame we don't get to see the Anakin between Episodes II and III in a movie. Personally I think Episode II should have been Episode I. (Obviously with some variations to accomodate the introduction of the characters). I think Episode III might feel a little rushed. A damn lot to fit in- but I suppose it does show the true power fo the dark side, since it appears Anakin's fall isn't going to be as "slow" as everyone assumed. It's pretty much "well when you put it like that I'll happily go and slaughter a load of Jedi". Vader killed Obi Wan and the other Jedi Masters during the Jedi Purge after Ep 3, whom I presume are more powerful than the Mandalore or Yusanis. I think Vader mainly takes them down via exceptionally strong Force abilities, but that is just my assumption. Example: Jedi ignites lightsaber. Vader chokes him to death. Repeat until no more Jedi. Darth Vader as seen in the films, could not take on a prequel Jedi in a duel. Yes, he's "holding back", but when Luke flips out, he could have "held back" and still stood his ground if he was still an awesome duellist. As it was, he gave a load of ground to a guy who was just thrashing around a saber wildly. Poor, poor fight scene. I am incredibly annoyed that GL decided that "lightsabers are heavy, like the swords in Excaliber" for RotJ, then changed his mind for the prequels. What a fool. Revan would also possess such strong Force abilities. The difference between the two is that Revan would be better with a saber than Vader, and certainly more nimble and able to pull of the fancy-pants moves. I think Mandalore and/or Yusanis could quite easily take on Episode IV Obi-Wan. That's just from what I saw in the film though... I mean, Obi-Wan was only fighting Vader to distract him really... I'm sure he could have 'upped' his ability had he needed to. From what we see in KotOR1/2 in fact, it is quite easy for non-Jedi to beat up Jedi. But that's just a gameplay thing. I mean, it's pretty ridiculous that Mission can kill a Sith Master in a one-on-one duel. She's 14.... No one ever said Vader/Malak was subtle. Indeed not. I was just saying that Revan was no less "dark side" because of it. You were implying that he was a "jedi thug"... or maybe you weren't. The first posts seem like so long ago... Did Revan obliderate the whole Jedi Order? Did Revan command the fleet that conquered the Republic? No, Vader did. More or less. I mean, his Sith assassins culled it from the 1,000s to the hundreds. And he also commanded a fleet that conquered a sizable portion of the Republic- and would have conquered the Republic had he decided to stay in the galaxy. Vader didn't command the fleet that conquered the Republic. He commanded a *portion* of the fleet that surpressed the dissidents within the Empire - and remember that ultimately those dissidents won. The Republic became the Empire, the Empire didn't "conquer" the Republic in the traditional sense. Vader also had a *bit* of help in obliterating the Jedi Order. I mean, I'm sure he picked off the most powerful, but the stormtroopers would be killing all the run-of-the-mill Jedi that they came across too. And based on all the facts I presented it's clear if it came to fight, then Vader should win. Not at all. None of your facts make it likely that Vader would beat Revan in a fight except: Vader killed all the Jedi, Revan is/was a Jedi. To which the answer could simply be: Vader didn't kill Luke, and Revan was as powerful/more so than Luke. And it all comes back to preference. Um, you don't know that. Yeah, I know: but since i'd already established it was a theory I figured I could use it without being called on it again. If you're talking about the stats then, yeah, Revan should win. I think preference is the final victor here. You're going to keep thinking Revan is stronger, and I'm going to keep thinking Vader is stronger. Like I said before, to each his own. Yup. I'm not really trying to convince you. Just make sure you understand that my reasons for choosing Revan go beyond "Revan is r0x0r w00T!" (though he is of course...) I mean, Revan was *designed* as a munchkin character. Therefore he's absurdly powerful by definition. Why do you think RoTJ Luke is weak? Emperor Palpatine fears him for a reason. I don't think Luke is weak at all. "Little punk" was in reference to his height and the fact he annoys the c*ap out of me. I don't think he was as strong as Anakin was/could have been, but he was definately stronger than Vader. I think everyone does. Well, as a member of "everyone" (by definition of everyone) you can understand where I'm coming from At last a kindred spirit. Can't stand Exar Kun. So overrated. Then again, you'd say the same about Revan, d'oh

Well and you get the cloned Emperor(s). Man that sucked... completely trivalised Vader's sacrifice and makes the "Ancient Balance to the Force prophesy" one of those "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" type prophesies, where the criteria is fulifilled for a split second then everything goes back to how it was before. I mean, obviously they didn't know about that prophesy then but... JEEEESUS, what a lame idea. (Also, has everyone been paying attention to the rumours of the Star Wars TV show that's supposed to be set post-RotJ, with Mark Hamill with a recurring/guest role? That sounds like it's gonna poo all over the EU. Unless of course the rumours are all fake.)

In KotOR 3 we need- - A "where the hell did the "Darth" title come from? Did Revan just use it as an alias or was it some ancient title of the Sith Empire he resurrected?" explanation. Unless Lucas is hogging that for Episode III... the fiend. - More T3-M4! I cannot believe that this game switched my attitude towards him from "complete indifference" to "absolutely adore the little guy". - Oh and lightsabers. Tsch, obviously.

Meh, well now I'm never going to win this debate. I suppose all I can say in retaliation is... urm... Lucas Film approved the Christmas Special... and the Ewoks mini-series. *Clutching at straws* I can see why the name was changed, I mean, you did have the EU purists baying for blood when the first game had "the Sith War"... but I just thought of it as "Sith War II" (III - if you want to count the Great Hyperspace War) and didn't care so much. I also definately got the "average joe doesn't see a difference between Jedi and Sith" feel throughout the game, no worries there- it was just that the K1 war always seemed like it was primarily the Republic's fight. Yeah- Kreia did do her spiel about how the Republic wasn't the target and was the shell around the Jedi and I thought that was a good interpretation: but didn't think that's how the galaxy-at-large would have seen it. I mean, at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter what I think. It *is* the Jedi Civil War, that's what it's called in the game and I've accepted that. KotOR never had any *voiced* dialog that referred to the war as "the Sith War" anyway... I was just used to thinking of it as that. The only thing I was curious about were the reasons for it's name change, and I got the definitive answer to my question, so I'm happy. Cheers. I still think I was right though. Now about that ending... (jk)

(since the quotes thing is bugging me, I'll do it the old fashioned way) Me: Whether or not Revan would have died or not without Bastila is debatable- I don't know either way, since Bastila stepped in to help him. You: According to Bastila's revelation on the Leviathan he would have died. She's self-important. According to Bastila: "You cannot beat me here on the Star-Forge Revan!" and "You are but a shell of your former self Revan!" "Your mind was too badly damaged to ever be fully restored." (and look what happens in KotOR2... it all just comes flooding back to the guy) Though I do think she saved his life... you'll see what I think could have happened had he been left on his own further down. Me: I'm not arguing that what Anakin went through wasn't worse, or that Anakin wasn't stronger in the Force than Revan- I'm arguing that a turbolaser is more powerful than a laser... arggghhhh!!!!!!! I'm simply saying the fact he was alive at all after such an event was pretty impressive. Besides, the Force literally *couldn't* let Anakin die... he still had a destiny to fulfill. You:Exactly. Anakin suffered a worse fate and lived. He became Vader because he had a destiny to fulfill. Revan would have died on his ship if Bastila didn't save him. That should be proof alone that Vader is stronger than Revan. No, it's proof that ANAKIN is stronger than Revan... jeez. Anakin > Revan pre lava bath Anakin < Revan post lava bath The way I see it though, it's nothing to do with strenght- the only reason Anakin survives is because he *has* to survive. The Force has to keep him alive long enough for him to get his treatment/new limbs. Usually it doesn't try to bend the rules too much, but because there's no-one there to save him, the Force steps in with a 'miracle' and keeps him from dying when he should have. I'm a firm believer that it's not so much Anakin's strength that keeps him alive, it's just that his destiny has to be fulfilled before he can die- It certainly adds more to his "Nothing can stop that now" statement in RotJ. He's realised that he's finally done his appointed task, now there is no need for him to live, so the Force isn't going to save him this time. I am aware this is just a theory before you point that out In the case of Revan, he might also *have* to live- but in this case, the Force only needs to work through Bastila to make sure he lives, it doesn't need to bend the laws of the galaxy to keep him alive. If all the strike team had died, then who knows, maybe the Force would have stepped in to give Revan a helping hand too. The thing is: I see Revan and Anakin as parallels in different time periods. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the "Chosen One" prophesy directly comes out of something to do with Revan's actions in KotOR III. As far as I am concerned, Revan is the Anakin of his day. So I generally don't like this topic, since I love both characters (I mean, my avatar should be proof enough that I think Anakin rules). The only thing that makes me say that Anakin would beat Revan as opposed to them being equal is that Anakin's dad is the Force itself. So, you know... kinda hard to top that. Unless we get a revelation about Revan in KotOR III... I mean, Kreia did say that in Revan she saw the "heart of the Force". Me: I've always assumed that Bastila was pretty much the only (maybe one of two) member of the strike team that survived. You:I actually think that she wasn't alone because I'm having a hard time imagining her lugging Revan's body throughout the exploding ship and finally loading him onto her craft by herself. Well... you could say the same thing about Luke lugging Vaders bulk from the Emperor's throne room all the way to one of the hangers of the Death Star... heh. Me: No, if I remember he was still firing lightning at Luke- Vader grabbed him whilst he was firing lightning at Luke, Palpatine started making an awesome gurgling sound and began zapping lightning into Vader but it was too late since Vader only had to take three steps before it was a case o bursting into a verse of "Palp-a-tine is falling down, falling down, falling down..." You: Vader took enough lightning to kill him. Luke took enough lightning to survive. Vader killed the emperor even though he was weaker than Anakin. Vader thus fulfilled the Sith policy of Apprentice killing the Master. Yeah he did- but again I ask, would it have happened if Palpatine had been prepared to face Vader? Personally I think the guy SHOULD have been prepared. I mean, hell, anyone stupid enough to think "loyalty" still means anything after you've just tried to convince your right-hand man's son to kill him and take his place is a few birds short of a cukoo's nest- but the fact remains, Palpy wasn't expecting Vader to turn on him. Me: Yeah, I'm aware of that - it's just how I choose to interpret it, since otherwise it destroys the mystiscism of the Force, as you said- and I sincerely doubt that was Lucas' intention. You: I personally think that the Force should be very abstract, and trying to saddle it with definitions just ruins its meaning. The Force *is* abstract. Midichlorians and the Force aren't the same thing. Force-sensitivity now has a definition, and a 'science' behind it true (so I can understand the annoyance if you wanted to keep this abstract too)- but the Force itself remains abstract. But essentially what's changed with how it was before? We now know that organic beings have little tiny things inside them through which they hear the Force. That's it, lots of little conduits- the more you have, the louder you can hear the Force. Big deal. Me: Plus, midichlorians are canon- therefore they're there no matter how much you hate them. You: Can't deny that. I just hope Lucas does to Episode III what he did to II when he didn't even bring them up. I don't think he will bring them up... and I don't think they should be brought up. They've served their purpose in the films: they are the means by which Jedi test for Force sensitivity and Anakin is the most Force sensitive individual in the galaxy. That's all they were there to show. Me: Far better to figure out how they work in regards to the Force than to write them off as crap and therefore be saddled with crap. You: To each his own. I guess so. Me:Tsch. Just the fingers of one hand... ok, fine, just his little finger and index finger off his right hand. That better? I was just saying, "he was crippled, he's not going to be as great as he was".... You:Maybe not as great as he was, but still great. Yeah of course, I've said Vader's great. But it made him worse than RotJ Luke and in my opinion would have made him worse than Revan. Me:There are some pieces of music you can play one-handed I might add. You:On the piano? It would be extremely difficult. I doubt Vader had as much difficulty dueling. Of course it would be difficult, that's the point. I'm talking about Vader's force sensitivity, not his duelling skills. Me:*scans his post for the part where it said that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side* You: This thread is about Vader, Anakin's DS Sith name. I know. My point is that I didn't say that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side, you just made something up randomly. Me:Nope, I definately didn't say anything of the kind... Nor did I say Anakin reached the level of thug. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. All I was saying was that "thug-side" was just about catering to the GTA loving masses. You:If you're going to compare Revan to Vader, might as well compare them in the DS context because both of them fell to the DS. Again huh? What? I know they both fell to the dark side. When I was ranting about how I was annoyed with what we've seen of Anakin in Eps 1 and 2 I wasn't even on-topic... I was just saying i was frustrated that Anakin wasn't as great as he should have been. I mean, if we want to compare the Darksidedness of Revan and Vader then it's only fair that we compare "pre-mindwipe Revan" and Vader as opposed to "PC Revan", since he's whatever Tom, **** or Harry (I cannot believe I just used such a grandma phrase) wants him to be. - Revan was a tactical genius. Vader was in possession of "tactical brilliance" (though we don't see it in the films particularly) , demonstrated whilst he was Anakin in the Clone Wars and during his time as the Emperor's right-hand. The rest is a debate about semantics. However, in my opinion, given the emphasis on it- Revan would be the better of the two in this regard - Both culled the Jedi Order more or less. Revan used Sith assassins, Vader lived in the time of "there can be only two" and thus finished the majority of them off personally. Both Revan and Vader are equally "darkside and evil" they just do it in different ways. In fact, you could link Revan's tactics with Palpatine's- except Palpatine just had one big, black, armoured Sith 'assassin', whilst Revan had a lot of smaller ones. Vader "wins" this, since killing all the Jedi up-close and personal is much more manly. - Revan was said to be in possession of amazing lightsaber skills. He beat Mandalore and Yusanis, the greatest mandalorian/echani warriors of the time. Canderous Ordo refers to him as "the single greatest warrior of our age", but that could just be because he idolises him. Vader in contrast is not as skilled with a blade as he was in his Anakin 'incarnation', no matter what way you want to look at it. Maybe Episode III Vader-in-suit is awesome with a blade and OT Vader's machine bits are just rusted or something.... we'll see. - Revan was in possession of near-supernatural charisma and rallied a considerable portion of the Jedi Order to his cause. Vader took the Malak approach of "fear me". Not saying one is better than the other, this is just comparison. So Revan is no less "badass evil" or "grand" than Vader, he just goes about it a different way. Sure, PC Revan can be a mindless thug, but that's up to the player. I know it looks like I'm Revan worshipping- but I'm honestly not trying to be. I'm just taking the facts as they are presented in the game/movies and trying to compare based on them. Based on all the facts it's clear that if it came to a fight of Revan vs Vader, then Revan should win. I mean, of course, since Vader hasn't fufilled his destiny until he's killed the Emperor Revan technically *can't* win... heh. But statistically speaking he should. If the question is "who do I prefer" out of Revan and Vader, then I don't really have a preference. It depends whether I'm watching Star Wars or playing KotOR. When I watch Star Wars, since Vader is my favourite character I'm rooting for him and wanting him to be the best (despite knowing that he loses to Luke in RotJ, I have hope that one day he'll change the ending and beat that little punk to oblivion...) When I play KotOR since Revan is *my* character, I'm obviously rooting for him and wanting him to be the best. Oh and as for the "the further back you get the more powerful the characters are". Yeah, true I suppose... except in the case of the Skywalkers. I don't care what you say, being directly related to the Force means you're stronger than people who aren't. Unless you know, you get a lava bath (which is why this debate exists :D) But if you remember, Kreia was only talking in reference to lightsaber combat. I mean, it's just like what happened with Dooku and Obi/Ani in Episode II. He was using an ancient technique, they were using modern techniques and therefore got r*ped. But Kreia ALSO says that there was a holocron of all those fighting techniques... and you get a holocron from monsters emerging from that tomb in KotOR1. So unless you gave it to Uthar for prestige I'm sure it wouldn't be too long before Revan's taught himself to fight just as well as those ancient lords.

Well... the tomb of Marka Ragnos is in "both" Valleys... maybe the one we see in KotOR is the back entrance. " As for the pilot being burnt alive... well, they were always clad in Mandalorian armour... which probably prevented that from happening- Star Wars physics being what it is.

Yeah, I know all of that.... butttttt you've missed my point. It was a war of the Republic vs the Sith/Mandalorian War vets. so my point is that the way "it's explained in the game" is wrong. It wasn't a war of Jedi, it was a war where veterans of the MWs turned on the REPUBLIC. They came back and started conquering the Republic, the Republic retaliated and the Jedi helped out. Though I completely understand how "Outsiders" would see Jedi and dark-Jedi as the same thing, I don't think it *would* seem to outsiders that it was a squabble between Jedi. The "good" Jedi were helping the Republic, the "bad Jedi" were leading the Sith (and since the outsiders are "ignorant" as we've established, they WOULD view the fleets and soldiers as the Sith) in attacks against the Republic. Both sets of Jedi were on opposing sides and had opposing goals, true- but to an "outsider" the main war would appear to be between the Sith (as in, the dark jedi, the soldiers, the ships and everything) and the Republic. The "Civil War"- fine, could understand that. Oh wait, that got taken by Episodes IV-VI. Doh. Anyway, I've more or less coped with that- I can extend my disbelief far enough to see how it could be called "the Jedi Civil War" by the masses. But it sure as hell doesn't fit in with what I saw in KotOR 1 in regards to the Republic's attitude towards it. But that is *not* my main gripe. Jedi Masters are *not* outsiders, yet even they call it the Jedi Civil War. Which is pretty stupid. But I guess they just figured they had to call it that since it was the name that the rest of the galaxy had stamped on it. Urg. Anyway, it is the Jedi Civil War, I can't not accept that- since it's its name. I just think it was a lame choice. I mean, take away the context we have of KotOR 1. Pretend we just had KotOR 2 and we heard "Jedi Civil War". What does that make you think of? Certainly not the type of war we saw in KotOR 1.

I still don't see what the problem with Naga Sadow's tomb being there is. The Sith would *undoubtedly* build the tomb for their Dark Lords the moment they became the Dark Lord. I mean, you didn't see them going "wait for us to build the tomb before we put Ragnos to rest" did you? No, the tomb was prepared for him *during his life*. Simply put, it was a tomb that wasn't used. Also the valley of the Dark Lords isn't just the bit we see in KotOR... you'll notice it extends further and also drops down into a deeper level where it extends for ages... it's not "two huge building" as you describe. Sure, it doesn't really look the same as in the comics but... *nothing* in KotOR "looks" right if we take what Tales of the Jedi made it out to be. The entire galaxy looked gothic and ancient which was pretty ridiculous when you think about it: I mean, sure it was set 4,000 years before the films, so the artists think "lets make everything look old", but the Republic and hyperspace travel had been in existance for about 20,000 years which doesn't suggest "ancient looking technology" to me. KotOR makes everything look more similar to the movies, which is probably more accurate in the grand scheme of things. Actually, KotOR changes a lot of the continuity to mesh more closely with the movies, which is something I really liked - and whilst it kept the names of people like Exar Kun and Ulic Qel-Droma in the background it's obvious that they'd changed the events and the characters themselves. The Sith War for example, was *nothing* like it was described in KotOR. In KotOR it seems like an actual war that involved hundreds of Jedi/Sith fighting each other and legions of troops facing each other down. Basically it seems like a proper war. In the comics, the war lasts like a couple of days. I've searched all the way through them to find points where I think "well a lot of time could have passed between here and here" but there are *none*. The war seriously lasts about a week at the most. Kun brainwashes 20 Jedi (out of HOW many in the galaxy?), who go on to only kill 8 Jedi Masters throughout the galaxy. Wow, how exceptional. As far as KotOR is concerned, he managed to corrupt hundreds, perhaps thousands of Jedi, considerably more awesome I think. Ulic Qel-Droma gets two armies beneath his command including all of the mandalorians and has *Mandalore* as his right-hand man, but he hardly attacks the *galaxy*. He just gets ****y and goes for Coruscant and gets pillaged by a group of 10 Jedi because he gets stabbed in the back by his Sith-squeeze. Sith technology is used to devastate a Ossus' surface. Admittedly, that's cool- then all the mandalorians and Ulic and Kun invade it to steal artifacts. Urm, and then Kun leaves, Ulic kills his brother and feels bad and tells the Jedi where Kun is. They all travel over there and do their "light blocking thang" - Kun sheds his body and his spirit gets trapped in a temple to await Luke Skywalker's Jedi Academy. Basically, KotOR makes Kun seem like a really powerful Dark Lord as he is always said to be, whilst the comics make him seem like a pansy who is always falling back on Sith technology to do his work for him. "use this amulet" "use this ship" "I'll use this big aritifact to drain all my warrior's life force and become a ghost" Also, he's just plain too stupid in the comics. So I'll take KotOR's interpreation of the "War of Exar Kun" over TotJs "The Sith War" (that wasn't even a war) any day. Though I do think we were cheated on not getting a proper Basilisk war-droid in KotOR2... and it breaks with KotOR 1 continuity (as has been said, Canderous said he "rode" his basilisk). But I can cope and when it comes right down to it- though I did enjoy TotJ (i mean, i've been using a screenname inspired by Ulic since i was about 12) i enjoy the KotORs much, much more and as far as I am concerned they are the *real* record of the stuff that happened in SW history.

They're not in the Xbox version.

I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the most obvious role KMR had in Baldur's Gate... I think it's kinda cool how there seem to be only 100 or so voice actors in the world (at least only 100 who ever get any work) - it means I can accurately name quite a lot of them just by hearing their voice in various tv shows/movies/games.

The strike team? Bastila survived if you recall. She bound her life to Revan's so that he could survive. Without her he would have died. Anakin on the other hand fell into molten lava and survived. Guess which fate is worse. Whether or not Revan would have died or not without Bastila is debatable- I don't know either way, since Bastila stepped in to help him. I'm not arguing that what Anakin went through wasn't worse, or that Anakin wasn't stronger in the Force than Revan- I'm arguing that a turbolaser is more powerful than a laser... arggghhhh!!!!!!! I'm simply saying the fact he was alive at all after such an event was pretty impressive. Besides, the Force literally *couldn't* let Anakin die... he still had a destiny to fulfill. I've always assumed that Bastila was pretty much the only (maybe one of two) member of the strike team that survived. Palpatine wasn't distracted. If you remeber he stopped shooting lightning at Luke and began firing at Vader. Which is why Vader died in the first place. Maybe he needed Luke for emotional strength or whatever, but he killed the Emperor fair and square. No, if I remember he was still firing lightning at Luke- Vader grabbed him whilst he was firing lightning at Luke, Palpatine started making an awesome gurgling sound and began zapping lightning into Vader but it was too late since Vader only had to take three steps before it was a case of bursting into a verse of "Palp-a-tine is falling down, falling down, falling down..." I don't think of you as stupid. I was merely sarcastic. Fair dos. I just get defensive and since I usually use sarcasm in a context to imply I'm more intelligent than the person I'm addressing (because I'm an arrogant s.o.b), I tend to think other people use sarcasm in the same way. *shrug* Character flaw of mine. (also lateness+tiredness+also writing an essay tends to equate to my overreacting to the simplest comments) A good theory, but it's all speculation on your part. For all you know it could be bacteria living in your blood. Yeah, I'm aware of that - it's just how I choose to interpret it, since otherwise it destroys the mystiscism of the Force, as you said- and I sincerely doubt that was Lucas' intention. Plus, midichlorians are canon- therefore they're there no matter how much you hate them. Far better to figure out how they work in regards to the Force than to write them off as crap and therefore be saddled with crap. Heh. A master pianist couldn't even play if he had his fingers chopped off. Atleast Vader can duel (pretty well I might add). A mediocre analogy at best. Tsch. Just the fingers of one hand... ok, fine, just his little finger and index finger off his right hand. That better? I was just saying, "he was crippled, he's not going to be as great as he was".... There are some pieces of music you can play one-handed I might add. But Anakin fell to the Dark Side. He fell to the dark side more of necessity than anything. He never reached the level of thug. Whatever floats your boat <{POST_SNAPBACK}> *scans his post for the part where it said that Anakin didn't fall to the dark side* Nope, I definately didn't say anything of the kind... Nor did I say Anakin reached the level of thug. I'm not sure what you're trying to get at there. All I was saying was that "thug-side" was just about catering to the GTA loving masses. Edit: Ok, can someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong with the quotes- since I've never had this problem before (check previous posts to see my quote-posting glory) and I'm irritating myself *greatly* with this quote handicap I seem to have picked up.