JFSOCC

Then why don't you do it instead of attacking me for having different opinion? Right, see I have a problem with this. First off, He is doing having that meaningful discussion, YOU, however, are not. Second of all, there is a difference between opinion and argument. They are not the same, and they are not of equal value. Argue your opinions. "Listening to what the fans want" is not the same as "giving them what they say they want." You have to take it one step further, and infer from what they say what really pushes their buttons. I'm quite sure he -- like Stephen King, or Obsidian -- does just that. Giving them what they say they want is fanservice. BioWare does that. It is, indeed, a road to nowhere. And I consider topics like this to be a cry for fanservice. Really, tell me, where in this topic did we ask for creative control over Project Eternity? Or is discussing what makes a game immersive somehow demanding specific content or features? You're free to state it, but not without consequence or challenge. Let me call you out, your opinion is poorly argued and irrelevant. It's like telling guys who are arguing what to order for food "Eating is stupid" and then thinking no-one will call you out for it. --- Right back at you. Pretty much this. ---- I don't think immersion is solely a matter of opinion, there are real design choices that lie behind making a game immersive. I think it includes polish, attention to detail, internal consistency, external consistency. (IE everything in the game design contributes to the style, even the menus, the tooltip dialogue, the manual, etc etc) It may include verisimilitude, although I don't think it's a requirement for every game, because it suffers from the technical limitations of the medium. I don't think it includes grind, tasks that feel like busywork for the sole purpose that it provides a gamist benefit. I think hyperfocus, what I believe ladycrimson is describing, is a consequence of, rather than cause of, immersion.

YES! thank you! This is pretty much exactly what I mean, thank you for your sermon Great post. As too the quoted part, I couldn't agree more. I think the only thing I really like from mr King is Shawshank Redemption. The The monsters there are real people, the horrors there conceivably happen in reality.

Well what I was trying to convey is that I believe that it is possible to identify and define at least some things which objectively contribute or detract from immersion. I was hoping we could work that out. (and gave examples of what I mean.) I feel a little misunderstood. Arguing the benefits or problems of immersion will only be possible if what contributes to or detracts from it is identifiable and quantifiable.

new IP? something completely different. Victorian you say? Well you are the plumber of a sick city, you work in the sewers to clean them up and keep the machines working. meanwhile you try to set out your own living space down there, make it nice, dry, comfortable. You can spend time tunneling to wealthy mansions and as you add these rich folk to the plumbing network you gain access to their houses and can spy on them. This voyeurism is essential in coercing/manipulating your bosses into letting you get better places to work, alternatively you can rob the houses and bring the cool stuff back into the tunnels. I dunno, there is just so much that could be done

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

that's the hardest I've laughed in a good long time, thanks!

make a playlist on youtube of overly clichéd songs like "ch-ch-changes!" and "moving on" "moving on up" etc... maybe humor will break the stress-tension a little

Yes, I've used the term before in argument, yes I've seen it mocked, ermagerd ehmersjun! But let's be honest here, immersion is a real thing, and it matters. I was hoping we could finally have an open debate on how to balance game mechanics and world immersion, but before we do that, we together could come to a workable agreement on what immersion is, other than something so intensively abstract that it loses meaning and fails to convey what is, undoubtedly a serious consideration for many. Well, the textbook definition is "the act of immersing something in liquid" (obviously not applicable) But this does point to what it is meant to convey: If you're immersed in water, you are surrounded by it, it touches you from all sides, wherever you look, there is water. And therein lies what so many mean by it. (I think) If someone is immersed in a story or a game, that person is not distracted by anything which does not contribute directly to the experience. The menus look like they could have been crafted by the craftsmen or wizards in the gameworld, the names of skills and abilities and spells sound like they could have been given by the people who inhabit this fictional world. Anything which directly reconnects a player with the real world, which breaks the veneer of the illusion of this otherworldly setting, breaks immersion. An invisible wall breaks immersion: you are confronted by an arbitrary limit with no in-game limitation. "You must gather your party before venturing forth" breaks immersion: the game narrators breaks in telling you that there is a mechanical reason why something doesn't work, it lets you know that you are playing a game. And yes, obviously, you already know that, but you should be reminded as little as possible that is immersion. "Your vast range of training and experience has made you more skilled" is less immersion breaking than "You've levelled up" or worse "Level up" The key here is balancing, of course. Sometimes conveying information to the player is best done with numbers, so they can make informed decisions. You want to know that your sword is +3, because then you know exactly how much better it is than your +1 sword. On the flip side, you could call the first the "cold forged cutting blade of sharpness" and the latter one "decent sword" But if you want to have this without the statistics showing, you need some naming conventions. All +3 swords must have the same designation (cold forged) and all +1 swords would need the same designation as well (decent) That's where the balancing choice of immersion vs gameplay comes in. I care a great deal about immersion, I think it's the difference between a functional game and one that draws me in deep (to use an appropriate metaphor) Yes, I want the menus to look like they're part of the world, yes, I want the armour to make a clank sound as I drag it around my inventory, no, I don't want to hear skrillex or deadmau5 play as I'm exploring Glanfanthan ruins. Immersion is an important part of the game, and otherwise solid arguments get ruined by bandying the term without a good definition or explanation of what you mean. Yeah?

The child witnessed something you did and will report the foul deed, or the child was in the way when my area of effect spell did damage to the three bandits. Or three bandits held the child hostage, I don't negotiate with terrorists so I killed the child to make my point. Or maybe I just didn't like the stupid child's damn face. Maybe his paperdoll was blocking my way, maybe killing the child serves as motivation for my victims, I mean subjects. Maybe it was an infected patient zero. Who cares what the reason is, I don't think you can make an arbitrary distinction between children and adults. Why would it be OK to code immortality for innocent children, but not innocent adults? Life isn't fair, and I'm OK with the game reflecting the harsh realities of life in the colonies.

maybe you can borrow clothes?

I felt like the ultimate message of the game is that you might as well just stay right where you are.

That was Return of the Jedi, heathen.

I said "it's unrealistic now". Because graphics have become better, everything is less abstract and the media attention is also much higher. You all know how often video games get blamed for this and that. Video games have to prove themselves all the time, and wishing for the ability to kill children because you want to be a psychopath isn't helping. Like I said, there's a reason GTA doesn't have children. Because even for a game like that, there are things that it can't and shouldn't allow you to do. GTA is still a game which requires you to brutally torture people. I'm not worried, this argument that games are a bad influence has been used for television, for film, for a whole bunch of generations of music. In 30 years the generation that grew up without videogames will be dead and gone, and videogames will take their rightful place as artistic medium like books and films and music all have as well. Let them toot their ignorant horns, but for god sake, don't give in, when you accept censorship like that, or worse, self-censor like that, you're betraying your own artistic integrity. And I still want to play the six days in Fallujah game, made with the input from those who were there, wanted to treat it respectfully and honestly, and got cancelled because some people are idiots who shouldn't be listened to got listened to.

"She fled, again." "We'll get her next time sir." "Will we? I've been chasing that harlot of a woman for how long now? Twelve years?" "Thirteen next week sir" "Nearly thirteen years! And every time, somehow, she manages to slip! I've tried everything! I've tried luring her in by capturing her parents, and making sure everyone knew they were set to be executed. She showed up, fought to free her parents, failed, and slipped away. I can't pressure her with dead parents you know... I've destroyed every business she owned, I've bribed her allies and friends, I've coerced her allies and friends, I've killed her most loyal allies and friends, she has no more family, I've put a bounty, nay, a king's ransom on her head, and STILL she eludes me! She's wanted in all of Vailia, I've set the masses against her, she has NO popular support, and I have my best men searching for her. I've had others search for her in case someone was tipping her off, I've rotated them. I WANT HER DEAD, WHY DOES SHE KEEP GETTING AWAY!?" "...We'll get her next time sir" "HOW can you say that? Have you not seen what a colossal failure this has been?!" "Because I know where she's going sir, I subtly let information get to her that she'll be safe elsewhere, from one of her allies we flipped. I staged this raid sir, she was meant to get away, we didn't have enough men to take her down today." "You let her go?" "Yessir, right into our open arms. She'll be docking in New Heomar, I've a team assembled to track and take her. I've got her exits covered, I've got a man aboard her ship, keeping me apprised, I've got one of those mentals tracking her from a distance. Our fleet is on its way to blockade the port. The City itself will find itself with a mysterious plague establishing quarantine soon after she arrives, and all inns are closed except for three, two of which will be too expensive for her, sir. She has no contacts in the city, her closest allies are in defiance bay, under our watch. She won't get away this time" "This won't be like Sailia falls again, will it? She's cost me enough as it is! I will have justice for my sons!" --- "Ship AHOY! PIRATES!" "PIRATES!" The bell is sounding, a half dressed groggy commander appears from his cabin, he collects himself quickly. "Man the decks!" You! Out of my way! No, wait, I don't know you" The deckmaster looked puzzled. "No, time, take this defend yourself, we're getting attacked. Shaabby that's a widemaster, WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT CHAINSHOT?" "Aft cannons loaded master! they will be in range any minute now" "Port cannons ready!" "Fire-eyes what are we looking at?! Starboard I'm waiting on you!" "Galleon sir, and a fast one! looking to fifty cannons, can't outrun her, and what looks to be a frigate some minutes behind her" "Ready sir!" the man identified as Shaabby sweating beads and showing wide-eyed fear" "NEW CONTACT fifty degrees Starboard, vail Hezeng!" This time the deckmaster is taken aback "That's too big a ship for pirates! See how deep she lies? She could never dock in shallow ports! That's a modified Carrack!" Better leave the deckmaster to his woes and report... "Where are you going!? I need everyone on deck!" That annoying man is turning out to be better at his job than I expected. "I've got better gear sir, I'm getting it. It might save us, I'll be right back" Before the deckmaster can respond I'm below. I hear him cursing now. Caelig is not going to like this. I bump into several drowsy sailors about to meet their doom, our doom, my doom... As I contemplate this I round the corner and run into a yard of steel. "Looking for me?" "How, how did you know?" "It's not my first time honey, nothing personal" --- The battle was over pretty quickly, if you could call it that. What remained of the crew was rounded up. An angry looking bleeding deckmaster had a tough choice to make. "Join us or die" sounds an obvious choice when your mind is clear, but he's really angry. I'd be angry too, with my captain's leg lying next to me, my captain just brutally murdered in front of me. But there is fear too, fear is good. "Yes, my men and I pledge ourselves to your service, pox be be on you." "I'm sure he'll be a welcome addition to your crew Randall, I've seen him lead and fight better than most. Now as per our agreement, please take me to Defiance, and scuttle their ship, it's been tagged by a skilled cipher, I'd rather not he have a look at it" "Scuttle the ship? Do you know how much she is worth? And honestly, why did you kill all three sons of one of the most powerful men alive?" "My business is my own, you'll be well compensated, provided I get to Defiance. Now please, scuttle the ship, it'll break the chain of leads for my pursuit"

I see what you did there

I read somewhere that it is self-compasion, not self-esteem, which is a key factor in happiness,let me see if I can find the link http://www.huffingtonpost.com/heidi-grant-halvorson-phd/self-compassion_b_1900989.html

procrastinages: delaying aging effects by being generally awesome.

Thanks, you're a great help. I still wonder if there is some database site, if only so I can see what there is to choose from.

hence why I asked if you know a site which at least compares all the objective data, so one could make his own pre-selection.

Well, from my completely amateur perspective, I imagine that I would want a lightweight, quiet, highly accurate (after all, accuracy can be trained, and a bullet in the head is all the stopping power you need) gun with a very light (hair) trigger. I've been browsing the web, and so far the coolest gun seems to be the HK mk 23 SOCOM. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MK23 (laser sights, match grade barrel, subsonic bullets and suppressor, low recoil, highly wear resistant, and .45 has much more stopping power (apparently) what's not to love. (IE why compromise) but then, this gun is frickin 17 years old. I have no ****ing clue how hyped it is, or of there are betters out there. I'm not really looking to own, (doubtful anyway, laws in this country, plus military grade weapon, etc) but I still have my boyish infatuation with guns, and this gun just seems wicked cool. Also aside from sidearms, the Auto Assault 12 looks amazing (lightweight automatic shotgun with effective range of 200 yards, 10k shots before cleaning, can fire upside down, can get wet or dirty and still fire, low recoil, and can fire grenade rounds, yeehaw!) as does the HK 416 (the long barrel one) Which is also gas operated, also works when dirty or wet, also wear resistant, also lightweight, extremely moddable(!) seems a solid gun. But I must confess my ignorance, most of my knowledge comes from changing the channel and staying on the future weapons show on discovery. I own one gun, it's made in the 1800's in Either Belgium or the Netherlands (Luik or Maastricht) and is a civilian gun. Also the barrel is slightly bent.

it's not the cigarette but static electricity generated by her sweater.

I was wondering, there's a lot of opinions (and I mean a LOT of opinions) on which guns are the best. Does anyone know of a place where there is a large database of guns, objectively tested, set to the same standards, described by a large range of objectively quantifiable statistics? (range, accuracy over range, reliability/failure rates, recoil, weight, stopping power, magazine size, cost trigger pull, safety, ambidextrous controls or not, less common features (special de****er, hair triggers, fires underwater) available modifications, etc.)

This applies to you as well.

Ostavier's Prosthetics After being on the losing side of the battle of Defiance bay and losing of three of his limbs, bright minded Ostavier Reshae didn't sit down and sulk, mostly because sitting caused him too much pain. He fled back to great Vailia on the last transport out of the bay, carried by his army buddies. Instead the master craftsman took his veterans pension and contracted the advice of the best local healers and scientists. He consulted with them behind closed doors, and after a while produced some crude prototypes of what was later to be his signature business. Ostavier was dead set against being useless, but more than that, he felt less of a man. It was his desire to create prosthetics which were every bit as good as the real thing. It didn't work of course, but during his time working on improving his designs, his prosthetics gained features normal limbs do not offer. Eventually he died before the satisfaction of walking again. It was then that his daughter as his only heir was forced to take up the work. Every tool in the shop had been reforged or reworked specifically for Ostavier's mad hope. Despairing, she sought advice and help from Ostavier's old army buddies. What she found was clients. Way too many clients. Even crude prosthetics were welcome, and Danquio Reshae found that she had a steady supply of work. It took about five years of work before she was admitted into the blacksmith's guild, usually taking no women, and some string pulling of some of her satisfied customers, but when recognition came, she was allowed to take apprentices and spend time on her own designs. Danquio was much better than her father, she quickly found out. He had been looking in the wrong places, and been doing the wrong research. As time progressed, the prosthetics became much better. But her personal project was not revealed until the business was well established. It took 15 years, and she cut off her own limbs to prove how well they worked, all of them, all of them replaced. Not only where the prosthetics every bit as agile, they were stronger, didn't break as easily, and each of them had some... upgrades. It didn't take long before the rich visited her shop, only to learn that she would not, under any circumstance, be giving anyone the superior product. Unbeknownst to the world, Danquio found out that in order for her best prosthetics to work, she needed to infuse them with strong souls. It had taken the souls of several animals and one unlucky bum dying behind her shop to create even one effective limb, for the others she had contracted assassins to kill her fathers commanding officers. Those she believed to be responsible for her fathers loss of limb. With their souls, she forged her prosthetics. Eventually, as these things go, her secret got out, she was sentenced to hang for murder. Her excellent crafted limbs allowed for a daring escape, and she fled to where she was sure no-one would pursue her: Defiance bay. It was there where she set up shop, became successful again. The secret made its way back to defiance bay, and eventually others joined her business, some shadier bastards had no qualms about providing rich lords with the new soul-infused prosthetics, but their work was shoddy, decades behind on Danquio Reshae's knowledge. Danquio realised that she had no choice to teach her apprentices if she wanted to stay competitive, but required 'great moral fibre' from her apprentices. Danquio was eventually found murdered, limbs removed. Eventually the soul-infused prosthetics made by her competitors failed, or backfired, and they fell out of fashion. But her business thrived, quality non-infused limbs are, unfortunately, always in demand. Her lead apprentice kept the name of the business and the honour code. But as her first apprentice had also learned the secret of soul-infused limbs. - Encountering the faction: It is possible, but rare to find prosthetics as loot, more likely the player will find out about the prosthetic crafter when he or she is in dire shape. But so is the business. It has fallen on hard times and standards of Danquio haven't been met for a long long time. The current owner will contract the player if he is persuaded to produce top quality product. If the player has a sufficient crafting ability, and follows through on the research and... soul acquisition They will be invited to join. Joining/Running the faction Joining the faction offers free low-grade prosthetics for the party, as well as open up several quest-lines for researching new and different prosthetics, including high(er)tech non-infused limbs, sense enhancements, and if the player so chooses, the soul-infused prosthetics. Soldiers in your stronghold will sometimes sport these artificial limbs if you've worked your way up to owning the store. Running the business, the player may secure contracts with large (para)military groups, such as the city watch, the fleet of Hezeng or the Knights of the Open Road. Not all of these will be favourable. (one faction may simply take your stock and not reimburse you, for instance) Based on your business practices, both your party and your enemies may find themselves with improved gear. The store also offers a modest income, and a quest which can ingratiate your party with some of the rich and powerful. (I wonder how) Should choices in the game lead to greater conflict in the Aedyran empire, expect bigger income and lower stock. Your apprentices may not have time for more advanced projects. Thanks to everyone in the "permanent injuries" thread: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64407-permanent-injuries/

ctrl+z works, it undoes the backspace. next time you don't have to redo an entire post Edit: you may have inspired a faction idea.