JFSOCC

That's like, just your opinion dude. I do not find it a meaningless topic, nor does PrimeJunta. I you find it meaningless, don't join the discussion, and let us at it. You've effectively killed my thread because no-one is going to read a back and forth except those who participate in it. You don't get to decide which topics don't get discussed and which topics do. If you didn't like this discussion, you should have stayed out of it.

Your first post contained no argument, just unsupported statements. I don't think you quite understand what it argument means. Here, try this, maybe it'll help you: http://www.kongregate.com/games/chiefwakamakamu/socrates-jones-pro-philosopher

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hs7Ozc6vE3s

You don't need to have an end Boss inn order to have a climactic battle at the end. For instance: you need to re-activate the pillar of ascension ultimate badassery or doom. As you do this, guardian creatures are spawned/activated: those statues you walked past suddenly lurch and move towards you. As you proceed, more and more powerful guardian creatures are spawned/activated. You need to get doodad A, now unlocked by completing step 1, but it's behind the surge of enemies that you're holding off After you get doodad A and succesfully add it to the Pillar of epeen compensation, the lights go out, you best quickly deal with getting light back up or dealing with your foes in the dark And after you've completed all of this, perhaps you still need to survive for a minute as the monument charges it's power of plague restoration to cure the land of the terrible blight that was terrorising it. - You don't need a boss for a battle to be climactic, is what I'm saying.

or a cat that could slip through cracks and find different paths into (possibly) hostile areas or a monkey which can climb some walls, jump from roofs to balconies and find another way in. Open the door from the other side. Perhaps eventually learn to break in to places and steal/carry some items back to the owner. A dog which can sense motive. (dog warns you that NPC your party is talking with might not be trusted) asymmetrical abilities which make familiar choices relevant.

Welcome to the forums Dean! I couldn't agree more! If an area is off limits, find some logical reason other than "your level is too low"

You either misread this or the book was titled "How not to write a story". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov IE the worst kind of foreshadowing, obvious and clichéd. Dawn Quixotic hits the nail on the head there. I think Morrowind did it right: if you killed a key NPC, the game would allow you to continue, but you got a message saying your game couldn't be successfully concluded now. As for children, I see no reason why they should have some kind of divine moral shield against harm.

Six days in Fallujah was pretty much cancelled because of bad PR.

I'm ambivalent about cutscenes. I'm not opposed to them, I love a good cinematic cutscene. I think Warcraft III has some of the best cutscenes ever made. Blizzard generally knows to do them well. However, if a cutscene takes away control from the player when the player could play or act the scene out himself, it's probably taking away from the game experience. Cutscenes should only be for narrative you could not otherwise deliver. A transition, perhaps an introduction, some exposition (though be wary of the exposition dump) I also believe that cutscenes shouldn't involve anything which the player could reasonably influence. I shall call this the Phoenix down argument.

Then why don't you do it instead of attacking me for having different opinion? Right, see I have a problem with this. First off, He is doing having that meaningful discussion, YOU, however, are not. Second of all, there is a difference between opinion and argument. They are not the same, and they are not of equal value. Argue your opinions. "Listening to what the fans want" is not the same as "giving them what they say they want." You have to take it one step further, and infer from what they say what really pushes their buttons. I'm quite sure he -- like Stephen King, or Obsidian -- does just that. Giving them what they say they want is fanservice. BioWare does that. It is, indeed, a road to nowhere. And I consider topics like this to be a cry for fanservice. Really, tell me, where in this topic did we ask for creative control over Project Eternity? Or is discussing what makes a game immersive somehow demanding specific content or features? You're free to state it, but not without consequence or challenge. Let me call you out, your opinion is poorly argued and irrelevant. It's like telling guys who are arguing what to order for food "Eating is stupid" and then thinking no-one will call you out for it. --- Right back at you. Pretty much this. ---- I don't think immersion is solely a matter of opinion, there are real design choices that lie behind making a game immersive. I think it includes polish, attention to detail, internal consistency, external consistency. (IE everything in the game design contributes to the style, even the menus, the tooltip dialogue, the manual, etc etc) It may include verisimilitude, although I don't think it's a requirement for every game, because it suffers from the technical limitations of the medium. I don't think it includes grind, tasks that feel like busywork for the sole purpose that it provides a gamist benefit. I think hyperfocus, what I believe ladycrimson is describing, is a consequence of, rather than cause of, immersion.

YES! thank you! This is pretty much exactly what I mean, thank you for your sermon Great post. As too the quoted part, I couldn't agree more. I think the only thing I really like from mr King is Shawshank Redemption. The The monsters there are real people, the horrors there conceivably happen in reality.

Well what I was trying to convey is that I believe that it is possible to identify and define at least some things which objectively contribute or detract from immersion. I was hoping we could work that out. (and gave examples of what I mean.) I feel a little misunderstood. Arguing the benefits or problems of immersion will only be possible if what contributes to or detracts from it is identifiable and quantifiable.

new IP? something completely different. Victorian you say? Well you are the plumber of a sick city, you work in the sewers to clean them up and keep the machines working. meanwhile you try to set out your own living space down there, make it nice, dry, comfortable. You can spend time tunneling to wealthy mansions and as you add these rich folk to the plumbing network you gain access to their houses and can spy on them. This voyeurism is essential in coercing/manipulating your bosses into letting you get better places to work, alternatively you can rob the houses and bring the cool stuff back into the tunnels. I dunno, there is just so much that could be done

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

that's the hardest I've laughed in a good long time, thanks!

make a playlist on youtube of overly clichéd songs like "ch-ch-changes!" and "moving on" "moving on up" etc... maybe humor will break the stress-tension a little

Yes, I've used the term before in argument, yes I've seen it mocked, ermagerd ehmersjun! But let's be honest here, immersion is a real thing, and it matters. I was hoping we could finally have an open debate on how to balance game mechanics and world immersion, but before we do that, we together could come to a workable agreement on what immersion is, other than something so intensively abstract that it loses meaning and fails to convey what is, undoubtedly a serious consideration for many. Well, the textbook definition is "the act of immersing something in liquid" (obviously not applicable) But this does point to what it is meant to convey: If you're immersed in water, you are surrounded by it, it touches you from all sides, wherever you look, there is water. And therein lies what so many mean by it. (I think) If someone is immersed in a story or a game, that person is not distracted by anything which does not contribute directly to the experience. The menus look like they could have been crafted by the craftsmen or wizards in the gameworld, the names of skills and abilities and spells sound like they could have been given by the people who inhabit this fictional world. Anything which directly reconnects a player with the real world, which breaks the veneer of the illusion of this otherworldly setting, breaks immersion. An invisible wall breaks immersion: you are confronted by an arbitrary limit with no in-game limitation. "You must gather your party before venturing forth" breaks immersion: the game narrators breaks in telling you that there is a mechanical reason why something doesn't work, it lets you know that you are playing a game. And yes, obviously, you already know that, but you should be reminded as little as possible that is immersion. "Your vast range of training and experience has made you more skilled" is less immersion breaking than "You've levelled up" or worse "Level up" The key here is balancing, of course. Sometimes conveying information to the player is best done with numbers, so they can make informed decisions. You want to know that your sword is +3, because then you know exactly how much better it is than your +1 sword. On the flip side, you could call the first the "cold forged cutting blade of sharpness" and the latter one "decent sword" But if you want to have this without the statistics showing, you need some naming conventions. All +3 swords must have the same designation (cold forged) and all +1 swords would need the same designation as well (decent) That's where the balancing choice of immersion vs gameplay comes in. I care a great deal about immersion, I think it's the difference between a functional game and one that draws me in deep (to use an appropriate metaphor) Yes, I want the menus to look like they're part of the world, yes, I want the armour to make a clank sound as I drag it around my inventory, no, I don't want to hear skrillex or deadmau5 play as I'm exploring Glanfanthan ruins. Immersion is an important part of the game, and otherwise solid arguments get ruined by bandying the term without a good definition or explanation of what you mean. Yeah?

The child witnessed something you did and will report the foul deed, or the child was in the way when my area of effect spell did damage to the three bandits. Or three bandits held the child hostage, I don't negotiate with terrorists so I killed the child to make my point. Or maybe I just didn't like the stupid child's damn face. Maybe his paperdoll was blocking my way, maybe killing the child serves as motivation for my victims, I mean subjects. Maybe it was an infected patient zero. Who cares what the reason is, I don't think you can make an arbitrary distinction between children and adults. Why would it be OK to code immortality for innocent children, but not innocent adults? Life isn't fair, and I'm OK with the game reflecting the harsh realities of life in the colonies.

maybe you can borrow clothes?

I felt like the ultimate message of the game is that you might as well just stay right where you are.

That was Return of the Jedi, heathen.

I said "it's unrealistic now". Because graphics have become better, everything is less abstract and the media attention is also much higher. You all know how often video games get blamed for this and that. Video games have to prove themselves all the time, and wishing for the ability to kill children because you want to be a psychopath isn't helping. Like I said, there's a reason GTA doesn't have children. Because even for a game like that, there are things that it can't and shouldn't allow you to do. GTA is still a game which requires you to brutally torture people. I'm not worried, this argument that games are a bad influence has been used for television, for film, for a whole bunch of generations of music. In 30 years the generation that grew up without videogames will be dead and gone, and videogames will take their rightful place as artistic medium like books and films and music all have as well. Let them toot their ignorant horns, but for god sake, don't give in, when you accept censorship like that, or worse, self-censor like that, you're betraying your own artistic integrity. And I still want to play the six days in Fallujah game, made with the input from those who were there, wanted to treat it respectfully and honestly, and got cancelled because some people are idiots who shouldn't be listened to got listened to.

"She fled, again." "We'll get her next time sir." "Will we? I've been chasing that harlot of a woman for how long now? Twelve years?" "Thirteen next week sir" "Nearly thirteen years! And every time, somehow, she manages to slip! I've tried everything! I've tried luring her in by capturing her parents, and making sure everyone knew they were set to be executed. She showed up, fought to free her parents, failed, and slipped away. I can't pressure her with dead parents you know... I've destroyed every business she owned, I've bribed her allies and friends, I've coerced her allies and friends, I've killed her most loyal allies and friends, she has no more family, I've put a bounty, nay, a king's ransom on her head, and STILL she eludes me! She's wanted in all of Vailia, I've set the masses against her, she has NO popular support, and I have my best men searching for her. I've had others search for her in case someone was tipping her off, I've rotated them. I WANT HER DEAD, WHY DOES SHE KEEP GETTING AWAY!?" "...We'll get her next time sir" "HOW can you say that? Have you not seen what a colossal failure this has been?!" "Because I know where she's going sir, I subtly let information get to her that she'll be safe elsewhere, from one of her allies we flipped. I staged this raid sir, she was meant to get away, we didn't have enough men to take her down today." "You let her go?" "Yessir, right into our open arms. She'll be docking in New Heomar, I've a team assembled to track and take her. I've got her exits covered, I've got a man aboard her ship, keeping me apprised, I've got one of those mentals tracking her from a distance. Our fleet is on its way to blockade the port. The City itself will find itself with a mysterious plague establishing quarantine soon after she arrives, and all inns are closed except for three, two of which will be too expensive for her, sir. She has no contacts in the city, her closest allies are in defiance bay, under our watch. She won't get away this time" "This won't be like Sailia falls again, will it? She's cost me enough as it is! I will have justice for my sons!" --- "Ship AHOY! PIRATES!" "PIRATES!" The bell is sounding, a half dressed groggy commander appears from his cabin, he collects himself quickly. "Man the decks!" You! Out of my way! No, wait, I don't know you" The deckmaster looked puzzled. "No, time, take this defend yourself, we're getting attacked. Shaabby that's a widemaster, WHAT DID I TELL YOU ABOUT CHAINSHOT?" "Aft cannons loaded master! they will be in range any minute now" "Port cannons ready!" "Fire-eyes what are we looking at?! Starboard I'm waiting on you!" "Galleon sir, and a fast one! looking to fifty cannons, can't outrun her, and what looks to be a frigate some minutes behind her" "Ready sir!" the man identified as Shaabby sweating beads and showing wide-eyed fear" "NEW CONTACT fifty degrees Starboard, vail Hezeng!" This time the deckmaster is taken aback "That's too big a ship for pirates! See how deep she lies? She could never dock in shallow ports! That's a modified Carrack!" Better leave the deckmaster to his woes and report... "Where are you going!? I need everyone on deck!" That annoying man is turning out to be better at his job than I expected. "I've got better gear sir, I'm getting it. It might save us, I'll be right back" Before the deckmaster can respond I'm below. I hear him cursing now. Caelig is not going to like this. I bump into several drowsy sailors about to meet their doom, our doom, my doom... As I contemplate this I round the corner and run into a yard of steel. "Looking for me?" "How, how did you know?" "It's not my first time honey, nothing personal" --- The battle was over pretty quickly, if you could call it that. What remained of the crew was rounded up. An angry looking bleeding deckmaster had a tough choice to make. "Join us or die" sounds an obvious choice when your mind is clear, but he's really angry. I'd be angry too, with my captain's leg lying next to me, my captain just brutally murdered in front of me. But there is fear too, fear is good. "Yes, my men and I pledge ourselves to your service, pox be be on you." "I'm sure he'll be a welcome addition to your crew Randall, I've seen him lead and fight better than most. Now as per our agreement, please take me to Defiance, and scuttle their ship, it's been tagged by a skilled cipher, I'd rather not he have a look at it" "Scuttle the ship? Do you know how much she is worth? And honestly, why did you kill all three sons of one of the most powerful men alive?" "My business is my own, you'll be well compensated, provided I get to Defiance. Now please, scuttle the ship, it'll break the chain of leads for my pursuit"

I see what you did there

I read somewhere that it is self-compasion, not self-esteem, which is a key factor in happiness,let me see if I can find the link http://www.huffingtonpost.com/heidi-grant-halvorson-phd/self-compassion_b_1900989.html