Kaylon

50% duration for a chant isn't as good as for the normal dots because it affects only the lingering phase. For dragon trashed that means only 2 more seconds which is only 17% increase over the initial duration...

If I remember well, if you switch your weapon set, the enemies will lose their buff.

Criticals extend dot's duration by 50%, they don't increase the damage. Also with 30int and maxed Brisk Recitation it's possible to completely overlap 3 chants, dealing dps comparable to a 2w barbarian with carnage...

Yes, I considered only half of the damage of Dragon Thrashed - it should be 39.8 dmg every 3s to all the enemies in range... However it faces 50% DR compared to Aeffylath... Aeffylath isn't the clear winner anymore in the long run, but it still does a huge difference for Heart of Fury. Starting with Aefyllath and then switching to Dragon Thrashed only might be better depending on the situations.

With 25mig/int and max Brisk Recitation, 1xDragon Trashed deals on average 19.9dmg (14.5x11/8) every 3s to all the enemies in range. Aefyllath adds 7.5 dmg to Sacred Immolation every 3s too. If there's also a 2h barbarian it can add another 10 dmg to carnage (which hits easily faster than every 3s). If we consider Heart of Fury and the damage of the other party members then Aefyllath becomes clearly the best choice even if Dragon Trashed might affect 1-2 more enemies. Thus for a party with carnage and Sacred Immolation the most offensive combo is Aefyllath+Dragon Trashed...

Yes, having a rogue is a good option damage-wise, but a fighter is more durable, so I like him more In my party, both the fighter and the barb are offensive off-tanks, while the latter is somewhat more squishy during the beginning of the game. BTW, what ranged weapon do you use with your rogue? I think, having a ranged rogue with durganized weapon who can switch to Nightshroud/Unlabored Blade/Reaping Knives is not a bad idea. And what reason is in using the Dragon Thrashed? After the nerf? IMO, 13 pierce/13 fire dmg with 20 Mig, considering this is before DR, is rather underwhelming. I didn't do exact math, but I feel that If your party does considering damage, Aefyllath is much better, unless you fight some fire immunes. Especially if you run a ranged rogue, then Sure-Handed Ila+Aefyllath would be great. IDK whether Aefyllath's damage boosts the cipher's focus generation, but an Amplified Wave or a Sacred Immolation buffed by a chanter are quite devastating. Not to mention barbarian's carnage attacks with Tidefall... The rogue uses Persistence. I don't think there's a clear winner between Dragon Trashed and Aefyllath. Dragon Trashed can stack with itself and against multiple enemies it starts adding more dmg than Aefyllath.

Your party/builds are very close to my own optimal team, but I use a rogue instead of a fighter with the barbarian being my off-tank. I use the rogue as the second ranged attacker (while later under Defensive Mindweb he becomes also a melee beast) with the cipher. My second line are the tanky chanter/priest - used for support/assist. I hate resting in PotD and since I don't like too much micro either I stay away from casters as much as possible (with the priest I limit myself to per encounter spells, unless it's a tough fight ). And once you have Sacred Immolation, Dragon Trashed and Heart of Fury who needs CC anymore?

1. Drawn in Spring/Persistence/Tidefall 2. Gauntlets of Swift Action 3. Looped Rope 4. Maegfolc Skull 5. Little Savior

Yes, the ranger is with the pet. Without alacrity DW is king because of the way speed stacks and affects DPS (multiplicative and non linear).

Here's the Persistence ranger (top) VS dual Bittercut rogue (bottom) comparison (without buffs - no alacrity/resting bonuses/etc). With 2xDrawn in Spring the rogue has an even greater advantage. Of course this is with 0% armor recovery for both - realistic for the ranger, but harder to manage for the rogue. ranger vs rogue.pdf

I think in the first versions of the game backstab and petrify bonuses were multiplicative and it was possible to reach higher numbers than now. Right now only a rogue has the potential to reach 500dmg with a single hit (backstab, critical, deathblow on a petrified target).

Well, you can always compare the ranger's dps with any of the other two... But dual wield will be always behind because it's just 1h dps with 0% recovery. Maybe I will make a comparison without alacrity and without resting bonuses and see which one comes on top.

Fully buffed (30+mig/int), with a critical Disintegrate you should be able to deal over 1k dmg which can kill any dragon...

I tried first with a png file and it was impossible to zoom, then I changed it to pdf...

I thought it was possible to zoom it if you save the image but it doesn't work... I will do also rogue dual Bittercut vs Dawn in Spring. Rogue with the same bonuses as above, but tis time 2xDrawn in Spring(top) vs 2x Bittercut (bottom). Blue means Drawn in Spring will outdps Bittercut. dvsb.pdf

RP aside, once you have durganized weapons the +0.3 crit dmg is always the best choice. Also the paladin is not that bad either because Sworn Enemy/FoD allow him to land quite a few criticals during each fight. Ah, I forgot about Sworn Enemy, as I hadn't gotten it yet in my recent (now lost) playthrough. How does FoD compare in terms of Tidefall v. dual Bittercuts? FoD is better with 2xBittercuts because of the higher base damage, but if you want the higher dps overall then Tidefall is better.

I made a chart showing rogue and ranger+wolf dps (as describied in my previous posts) with their base accuracy vs various combination of DR/deflection. On top is the rogue dps - green means he outdps the ranger. On the bottom is the ranger+pet dps - blue means he outdps the rogue. Increased accuracy (either because of enemies deflection debuffs from afflictions or various buffs) will shift the tables to the right helping more the ranger because of his higher base damage. RogueVSRanger.pdf

RP aside, once you have durganized weapons the +0.3 crit dmg is always the best choice. Also the paladin is not that bad either because Sworn Enemy/FoD allow him to land quite a few criticals during each fight.

In ch.2, besides Drawn in Spring, Bittercut and Rimecutter you have Danulya, Shatterstar and Resolution worth mentioning. I wouldn't include Cladhaliath on ch.2 because that means losing the critical dmg bonus from the Doemenels... In ch.3, besides what was already mentioned, you have also Strike Hard which is at least as good as Rimecutter and the Last Blade of the White Forge which is slightly worse but looks better .

No need to test Pilferer's Grip - its effect is shown as suppressed if you wear a durgan enchanted armor.

Of course Driving Flight wasn't included in my calculations. I also considered a party situation where the rogue/pet are assisting a companion which is something normal if you want them to stay alive as long as possible. My post wasn't made to support Boeroer or somebody else, I just tried to show the potential of each class. (In fact most of the things I pointed were in the favor of the rogue).If you think the rogue has higher accuracy please post your numbers, maybe I missed something.

Kaylon you initial base damage for tidefall is less then 1 arrow from persistence? And there is no allowance for crits, sneaks, deaths? The reason the bow damage is greater is because the ranger fires 2 arrows at the same time (it's 2*12.5). Sneak attacks and death blows were counted, hit to crit was counted too. Pure criticals (not hits converted), grazes and misses are difficult to count because they depend on the enemies defenses. But if we decide on enemy's defense we can of course have an even better estimation. More criticals favor the ranger (because of his higher base damage), while less criticals favor the rogue...

Without the legendary enchantment and the wounding (also depending on might) you cut easily 30-40% of the Persistence damage...

A few points that weren't mentioned: - the rogue can stack Galant's Focus with Reckless Attack for a total of +12acc - the rogue has also Deep Wounds which adds (1+might bonus) dmg/s - if we consider the pet dmg, Stunning Shots and Stalker's Link bonuses we also have to consider the time used by the pet to move from target to target, just like for the rogue - in theory, under Defensive Mindweb, the rogue can also add more damage via Riposte - the rogue can also stun (Sap) or further lower the defenses (with Persistent Distraction or by applying other afflictions) - the rogue can do 2 types of damage All that being said here are my results: I considered a wood elf ranger with 30mig/20per using a durganized legendary Persistence (with lash) and his pet VS a hearth orlan rogue with 30mig/20per and a durganized legendary Tidefall (with lash). Both are using the Gauntlets of Swiftness and potions of alacrity for nearly 0% recovery. On top of the 60% dmg bonus from might and the 55% from legendary they have: - ranger - 20% dmg from Stalker's Link, 15% dmg from Apprentice Sneak Attack, 40% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 12% dmg from hit to crit conversion - rogue - 20% dmg from Reckless Attack, 15% dmg from Two Handed Style, 50% dmg from Sneak Attack, 100% dmg from Death Blows, 30% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 30% dmg from hit to crit conversion They both have 120% crit damage (durgan+merciless hand+dungeon delver). The ranger has 20% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits he will have 10% more crits overall, ie 0.1*120%=12% more dmg), the rogue has 50% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits we will have 25% more crits overall, ie 0.25*120%=30% more dmg) . The rogue deals 1.6 raw dmg/s with Deep Wounds. The ranger has 116 accuracy with Stalker's Link, while the rogue has 118 with Reckless Assault and Galant's Focus. Both of them attack every 1s. The wolf pet deals 16-23 base damage,has 8DR penetration (base+Vicious Companion) and a total of 212% dmg bonuses (72% level bonuses, 15% Vicious Companion, 30% Merciless Companion, 50% Predator's Sense, 15%might, 30% flanking). His accuracy at lv16 is 105. He attacks roughly every 3s. The rogue will do on average every 1s: 17*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.5+1+.3+.3)=78.2 slash/thrust dmg (weapon), 19.5 elemental dmg (lash), 31.3 raw dmg (wounding), 1.6 raw dmg (deep wounds) for a total of (130.6dmg - 1.25*DR) The ranger will do on average every 1s: 25*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.4+.12)=75.5 thrust dmg (weapon), 18.9 elemental dmg (lash), 30,2 raw dmg (wounding) for a total of (124.6 - 2.5*DR) The pet will do every 3s: 19.5*(1+2.12)=60.8 thrust dmg (fangs) if the target has less than 9DR and a total of (68.8-DR) if the target has at least 9DR that also means the pet will do on average every 1s: (20.3 dmg) if the target has less than 9DR and (22,9 - .33DR) if the target has at least 9DR Both the ranger and the pet will do on average every 1s: (144.9 - 2.5*DR) dmg if the target has less than 9DR and (147.5 - 2.88*DR) if the target has at least 9DR Conclusions: - without the pet the ranger is always outdamaged by the rogue (higher dps, faces less DR, dual dmg type) - ranger+pet outdamage the rogue if the DR<9; if DR>=9 the rogue gains again the upper hand because he faces less DR and has 2 types of damage If the ranger has an accuracy advantage then he can gain the upper hand at higher DR too... And if the rogue uses 2 weapons he will be outdamaged even more easily.

The accuracy is basically the same for both. The ranger has Distant Advantage + Marksman which will compensate the loss from Twinned Arrows; then it's Stalker's Link vs Reckless Assault.