Kalfear

LOL, I doubt anyone expects to ever do a Star wars film WITH OUT Lucas interfering in some way. At least until hes dead. Its his franchise and his baby regardless of who writes what out there. His word is god on the topic. And really, thats the way it should be to be honest. Im not saying Lucas a great writer (Far from it as Episode 3 showed) but he created the franchise, he built it from the ground up, he deserves the accolades and profits that come from it IMO.

I gotta admit, when I read these two points in first post I was baffled and still am! The background info (relevant info) was much more detailed in K2 then it was in K1. Atton, Mira, Visas, Handmaiden, Bao, they all had excellent background info that K1 never even came close to matching. Heck even T3 had background stuff this time around. As for party interaction (or comedy for that matter) The FUNNIEST character interaction of either game for me came by having Handmaiden and Atton with me when I met up with that guy who want the ebon hawk on nar shaddar. It was awsome and K2 was FILLED with little things like that, you just had to find the right combo of characters to have with you. Gotta say, I think people complaining about backgrounds, interaction, and comedy are totally out to lunch. What game were you playing because all of those items are in abundance and more in KotOR2. Far more then K1 had, thats for sure.

LOL, hardly warrents mention. Have to see how the animated and tv series do first.

I have the old set on VHS but watched the fixed up versions on TV other day and gotto admit I like the fixed up versions more. I dont think Lucas can actually remake episodes 4-6 because people picture Luke being played by whats his name, Leia by Carrie Fisher, and Hans by Harrison Ford. Those characters are basically royalty in Star Wars and people just wouldnt accept others in those roles. But that still leaves the problem that when Star Wars originally released, technology just wasnt really up to the task at hand. Honestly, I kinda hope Lucas takes the old films, dubs out the aliens (mostly, some ok) and remakes the original 3 movies with the proper technology ability. I wont lie, I absolutely HATED Elephant man in part 6 and the stupid guy in the rubber wolfman mask in episode 4. Plus I freaking hate ewoks as they are currently in episode 6. There is alot Lucas can do to bring episodes 4-6 up to the standard of look that episodes 1-3 have (which were breath taking). Course then you would get those who like seeing strings attatched to fighters complaining much like the black and white movie crowd do about color movies. Its a no win situation. But anyways, I dont mind him fooling around with the old ones because they just look so dated compared to episodes 1-3. I asked a friend the other day how he would show the Star Wars movies to his kids when they old enough. He at first replied in order of 1-6, but then took it back because after the graphics and special effects in 1-3, most new people would never sit through 4-6 because of how much less detailed they are. Said he would show it as 4-6 then 1-3 just because of the massive massive difference in looks.

Not really but when I saw the giant bubble at the "opera" I thought they were watching a Bliztball match. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nope, didnt think that either What got me was, How easiely Mace defeated the Emporer in the first fight but how completely the emporer owned Yoda in the second fight. I just chalked that up to the emporer playing possem though to turn Anikin. Doesnt explain the scenes before Anikin arrives in the room but hey, I can go with some suspension of disbelief heheh

Totally agree SP, I found when reading the complaints, on these forums, when game first released. A good 80% of the complaints were because people were to use to not reading what was said and treated K2 like every other RPG/RTS game recently and ran into trouble. Im like you, plots and twists very very rarely surprise me in games. But K2 did it far better in making the plots matter to the story then other games. Also the Party NPC backstories were not transparent like party NPCs in K1. So I found that made those characters more interesting over all as well.

I have questions *and its to late and this thread to long to search them out!* heh First off, I felt kinda so so about Episode 3 now I seen it. The effects were top notch and the different planet landscapes were great and the lightsabre duels were fantastic so it wasnt a waste of money by any stretch. Also I think Ewan Magreagor (sp??????) Did a fantastic job as Obi One. One of the main things about his proformance in Episode 3 was I could HEAR Sir Alex Giness in the acting which makes Episode 4 much more valid now regarding that. Unlike Haden as Darth Vader (think Lucas should have gone with original idea and gotten someone taller and more filled out as thats how Vader appears in Episode 4. Haden to skinny). Anyways, my questions (as I dont read Star wars books so maybe these answered in those) that were left after watching movie. 1) Was the some signifigance to having Chewbacca there to send Yoda off from the Wookie planet? Chewy (that I ever noticed) doesnt seem to impressed or driven about Jedi or their cause (beyond loyalty and friendship) in Episodes 4,5,6? Just wondering because if he helps Yoda escape and holds Yoda and jedi in high standing you would think he would at least show that somewhere in parts 4,5,6? Just made me wonder is all? 2) Who is General Greivious? Loved the character honestly but was like.... WTF? Who is that when he appeaered in part 3? How did he become 3rd in command after Pap and Doku? 3) What w as the reason for killing all the jedi children and why did Anikan do it? Just seemed to me that sort of evil slaughter to that extent was way way over the top. Just was to soon to fast. Course I thought the turning to the dark side was also done very poorly. One second hes saying Pap must face trial and the next hes kneeling and blindly obediant? To much to soon IMO. 4) Lastly, I remember in episode 4 Vader was hunting down the remaining jedi, yet in episode 3 they all die from the storm troopers turning on them. What remaining jedi (as he doesnt get Obi or Yoda anyways) is he hunting? 5) Oppps really last, So the Death Star takes 17 years to build and it still isnt finished? WoW, thats some REALLY REALLY slow building! Cause Luke is like 17-18 in Episode 4 from what I see. Anyways, great escape flick but not what I was expecting. I think it needed a extra hour in it worth of dialog to be honest to fill the gaps present. as an Action flick it was a great rollercoaster ride though from start to finish!

I would like it if the KOTOR games had 60 hours of content the 5th time you play. But not 500 hours of content! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL, id kill for KotOR or JE to have 60 hours (realistically) of playability on my first time through! Heck with 5th

K2 for me. Other then the Revan bit there was no surprises in K1, you always knew what was coming and why and it was boring to be honest in that regard. K1 and JE were to linear, they need to allow more freedom to the players. I disagree about the side quests as well. I approached the influencing of different party NPCs to get their stories as the side quests (rather then the boring, oh go save my brother, yada yada yada stuff). I found getting the stories (expecially from Handmaiden, Atton, Visas, and T3) to be excellently written and far more interesting then anything K1 or JE (excluding Black Whirlwind) had to offer. So while there actually was no specific linear quest to do, just influencing the party members made all encounters mean more. I will say K1 ran smoother tho, Obsidian could have done some work to have the different settings flow togather better. All in all K2 wins on most catagories by abit (not a huge margin) but enough to make it my favorite.

ROFL, sorry Volo. Not a DDO fanboi, just reasonable enough to 1) read up on a game first, and 2) Actually play the game before writing it off! You should try either point in the future PPS: Here is a good string for folks to read regarding GW and how free it is actually... Guild Wars, not so free after all

Same, Ill get Xbox 360 when it drops in price. PS stuff doesnt appeal to me at all.

Anyone else getting tired of the "The game im playing is best so all others are bad until I switch to next game then it becomes best" attitude? I sure am. DDO looks to be a new approach to MMORPGs. Its graphics are comparable to any other game out there or in production (and vastly better then some). For anyone interested in actually reading up on the game BEFORE casting judgement, Turbine has announced many times in many areas that additional classes and races will be added to game after game goes retail FREE of charge. For the moment they are focusing on a limited number of races and classes (which for the record is ALOT more then WoW currently offers and is about par for most new MMORPG releases). The game is an attempt to bring the table top D&D experience to online gaming. This ha never actually been attempted before in MMORPGs and at the very least should be interesting to watch and see how it does. Will the game be good? Only time will tell. I know I plan to alpha/beta test it and see from there. Im just tired of people bashing something the have no clue about. Far as looks(excluding EQ2 which has everyone beat), mechanics, ideas, new concepts go, DDO is equaling or bettering other MMORPGs currently on the market. So no it doesnt look silly. From the information available it looks comparable to everything else (including Guild Wars). As for the monthly fee arguement. $15.00 /month is a LOW LOW LOW cost for the number of hours of entertainment you can get from a MMORPG. Its less then the cost of a night at a movie. Less then the cost of 3 movie rentals. Less then the cost of many many many one night only activities. So the monthly cost really is a non issue in the topic as no matter how you look at it, its all entertainment and 15.00/month is really inexpencive when compared to other more limited activities. Personally, Im more then willing to pay $15.00/month for something that will give me on average 80-160 hours of entertainment in a month. I consider that a bargin compared to many games that start and end in 20-30 hours and cost $70.00+ from the store. Lets do the math. 25 hours of entertainment for a product that costs 70 = $3.50/hour actual cost. Compared to (lets say 3 months even though most folks play for years) 120(hours per month to be fair) multiplied by 3 months = 360 hours. 360 hours for a product that costed $70.00 (purchase) and $30.00 (monthly, first month always free) = $0.27 per hour actual cost. Heck, even the most die hard casual player only pays 1.66/hour actual cost (based on 20 hours a month playing time) Wow, the numbers pretty much say it all dont they!

LOL, I mean the Student, master, grand master difficulty choice. Wasnt saying JE was harder, just KotOR should have the difficulty setting option like JE had.

LOL, well I know for myself, the first time through game, before he even says a word, he did that bow. From that point on I was looking for and replaying the convo choices in hopes I could kill him (and I was 100% LS Male). Just for that girly bow he did, he deserved to die! His conversations and voice just iced the deal with me. Man I wanted to kill him sooooo badly! Almost as badly as Goto!

heh Meta, thats basically what Steve was saying as well (just you alot more blunt about it). *for the record: dont think of it as catch 22, heh. We both just have differing veiw points I dont think less of Steve or yourself or anyone for disagreeing, this just a topic I have a unbending veiw on is all Neither of us right or wrong really. Reality of it is adoption is legal by a gay person as proven already by some celeb homosexuals. While they hardly the best test subjects because of their celeb status, Im sure they will set the bar for others regardless what I or anyone else says or thinks.* As I said to him, When it comes to adoption, its all about the child. Thats where it starts and ends. Im not a homophobe in any way but if keeping the child safe means a homosexual (or a single parent (in some cases), or a what ever) never is able to adopt. Welp im fine with that to be honest. It starts and stops with whats best for the child and only the child. Nothing else matters. Sorry ( and yes I know my veiw on this topic seems harsh and unbending) but when it comes to children, they are all that matters. I really could care less on who's social values (im not just talking gay people here either) are being steped on, if its for the betterment of the child, step away Your a alcholic, grats!!!!! you cant adopt! Your a Crackhead? let me introduce you to forced sterilization (that should go over well) Above two things not to suggest ANY comparrison to homosexuals and drunks or crackheads, just to stress that when it comes to children its gloves are off. Go to the extreams if need be! Adults can stick up for themselves, can defend themselves, can articulate their opinions and agendas, children cant! So children should never be put in the situation where they are used to promote some agenda or social program. Slightly off topic, but you must understand Im very vocal in wanting the ENTIRE Adoption program in Canada reworked as it is. Just unfortunately I have no real avenues or contacts to do so. One of the agencies that really needs reworking is Foster children homes. For every GOOD foster family out there, there is anouther that is stockpileing the children so they can collect the government subsidy cheque each month per/child. I want to see these foster families have to report with reciepts where that money going each month so the money sent to help support the child is actually being spent on the child. I want to see far far far deeper background checks on would be parents (forget the gay and straight issue, im talking ALL would be adopters). Simple truth is, a child sent to a family with a alcoholic has a better chance just staying in the dang orphanage in many cases. Either way, come 15-16, that child is going to bolt out on his/her own. Thank God they changed the medical History laws so no children can have happen to them what happened to me (didnt know family medical history so a hereditary disease was diagnosed 13 years to late). Now a days you have to include your family medical history when giving up a child for adoption. That law was long over due. Point is, there is STILL many many many things wrong in the foster parent and adoption programs that require ALOT more attention immediately then the topic we discussing here. Its long over due that polititions started drafting laws that benefited the children first and formost. Society can work its own problems out with out placing children on the front lines. LOL, and to go REALLY off topic. I heard something today on Radio that made me kinda laugh and think of this thread. You realize, WE, people with no power or vocal outlet (that Im aware of anyways, guess any of yas could be the President or Prime Minister but Ill go on a ledge and say I doubt it! hehe) discussing this topic and what do I hear on radio? Some member from a Toronto Gay organization (sorry didnt catch names and all that, just background noise while driving) complaining that Gay history is not taught in public and Chatholic schools so they (the organization) have to gather the information and history to teach younger homosexuals about it. I know it off topic but couldnt help but laugh, we seem (all of us) more interested in real topics regarding society then the actual front men/women of the activist organizations!!! LOL, anyways, made me laugh! (snickers) whats next? lets see the women libbers got manhole covers changed to personhole covers in the 80s, maybe this time next year we will have to refer to them as alternative personhole covers!!!!!! Just gotta wonder!!! LOL

Elder, diffinately check out Dungeons and Dragons Online. Alpha application opened right now for folks (or was) and is group orientated PvE game coming soon DDO.com is the website I believe. Also due out in 2006 is Imperator. No alpha/beta app at this moment but should be taking applications with in the next 6 months Id guess. Just head over to Mythic.com to find that games web site.

All in all I thought Part 2 was harder then part 1 was but both were fairly easy. In Part one I only had difficulty with Maloc In Part two I had Major difficulty with the 5 sisters in Telos Academy (even after learning their weaknesses it was still challenging) Between major and normal difficulty with Master on Dant Difficulty with Sion (choose wrong conversations first time through and fought him like 6 or 7 times, which does start to become a problem) Difficulty in the temple on Dunx (first time through only) Difficulty on yauht (first time through before getting PC in group) All in all, gotta say I found part 2 more challenging then part 1. Both had good stories though and thats the main focus for these games. Still though, think KotOR games should have difficulty level like JE has.

LOL Volo, yas on crack if yas think customers dont show loyalty. Really no other arguement to be made other then to say, yes they do. To say otherwise would be false and delusional to be honest.

Have played them all Eldar. Right now (for a new player) I would suggest WoW or wait for one of the numerous new MMORPGs being released in next 2 years. NOW, me suggesting WoW doesnt mean its a good game, its not. However it is MMORPG on training wheels so if your new to MMORPGs, this will get your feet wet and give you a IDEA (only a idea, WoW only scratches the surface of what MMORPGs can do and be) of what to expect in MMORPGs. I however would not suggest you try the older MMORPGs. In many cases the learning curve has passed new players by. Games like EQ, DAoC, EQ2 require aloit of time and effort and contacts. Since everyone already partaking in high end game there, making new contacts can be very hard and very challenging. If your not interested in playing WoW to get the bare basics down, then I would suggest you look at some of the upcoming MMORPGs out there and sign up for the alphas and betas if you can. Dungeons and Dragons Online, Imperator, Warhammer, Vanguard, and others all have upcoming betas in next months to years. Just find which is first and give it a try when you can. As everyone starts at same level you can learn from more experienced players and form contact lists (or just join guilds). Just keep in mind that the experience you will get will depend on WHO the game was designed for and what type of crowd it attracts. While WoW is great for a first time gamer online, dont assume the experience you get there will be the same as elsewhere. Most MMORPG out there do NOT target low Teens and Battlenet players as their subscription base and prefer older more mature players. Think of it like WoW = Bugs Bunny, Other MMORPGs = Ren and Stimpy or The Simpsons. Anouther easy learning curve game is City of Heros (if your into super heros and that sorta stuff). Something to keep in mind, MMORPG players are FANATICALLY loyal to thew specific game they play, until they move to new game and then they are fanatically loyal to that game. So when someone tells you so and so game is the best, take it with a huge grain of salt. Case in point, a poster above mentioned Ashrons Call. Personally I didnt like the game, but AC at its highest point ever, never managed to stay in top 3 4,5 list for popularity unless it was the 3rd,4th,5th choice to be had (there was no other games available). Yet AC players to this day remain the most loyal (and vocal) you could find. Just as a example. heh, and I really have tried them all Started 14 years ago in original NWN (on AOL) and been subscribing, alpha/beta testing them ever since.

See Jouk, right there is the contradiction tho. How do you find out someone in NWN is a bad player? Obviously either someone warns you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you block IP. How do you find out someone in a MMORPG is a bad player? Either someone tells you or you have a problem with said player first hand. So you /ignore them. Problem solved in both cases, so really both genres equal in terms. However in NWN a person can change their IP, in MMORPGs they cant remove themselves from your ignore list. So really, if you get right down to it, MMORPG way is the more efficent solution as it stands right now. Also, welp there is your problem right there. Your playing SWG and WoW. SWG is the worst MMORPG out there in many ways. They have a huge amount of potential and for what ever reason SOE refuses to live up to the potential. I had SWG accounts as well in the past. Its just a terrible game from top to bottom. SOE listens to the wrong people each and every time and rather then become more appealing they refuse to fix areas of the game that would improve the game. Its just terrible. Its like saying you hated Halo (I did but beside point) because you played the Original Castle Wolfenstien. SWG is not remotely similiar to any other MMORPG out there. In terms of players, content, or developing company. I mean its no secret and widely known that any SOE programmers with any talent are put on EQ and EQ2, SOE sends the bottom of the bucket to work on SWG. And WoW. Tell me, would you write a review about a 5 Star Restraunt because you ate at McDonalds? Would you claim to be university educated because you passed grade 1? Because thats exactly what you are doing when you hate MMORPGs because you play WoW. WoW is nothing more then a MMORPG with training wheels. Any experienced MMORPG player can max out in WoW is 2 weeks and literally run out of new content to play in 2 months. WoW was designed for Battlenet kiddies and thats where the bulk of the subscriptions come from. So of course your meeting bad people there, look at who the game was designed for! Sorry, but you are getting exactly what you asked for by playing WoW. You cant really complain about it when you get the kind of gaming experience the product is designed for. My advice to you is start signing up for some betas out there. That way you will try products for free and will see a HUGE difference in the experience you have gotten so far. The mass majority of MMORPGs out there do NOT try for the Battlenet kiddies as customers and do NOT treat their products as disowned redheaded step children. Honestly Jour, right now you are doing what I could be accused of if I only played Unlimited Adventures and then wrote a review about NWN from that experience. Or as I said above, you ate at McDonalds and wrote a review above a 5 Star Restraunt. Sadly you have scrapped the bottom of the Barrel with the 2 MMORPGs you choose, now step up and try quality MMORPGs when they first starting. Many MMORPGs are getting close to having alpha and beta tests, give them a try and you will see a dramatic DRAMATIC difference in quality, maturity, support, design, community, and pretty much every area that is important (and lacking in SWG and WoW). Dungeons and Dragons Online , Imperator (new product in 2006 by Mythic), Vanguard, ect come to mind.

Hmmmm, That interview kinda turned me off of Dragon Age to be honest. I was hoping it would be more along the lines of JE and KotOR style then Balders Gate and NWN. Ahhh well, have to keep watching. Loved that they looking at a possible MMORPG game. Really think Bioware (or Obsidian) could do a MMORPG properly and hopefully they useing JE or KotOR as the template. JE2 what else needs to be said! hehe As for platforms, I hope Bioware remembers the XBox users loyalty and design games for XBox first before worrying about the other platforms out there. I know I hav have no desire to buy Playstations and game cubes and all t hat junk. 1 PC and 1 XBox enough for me

Ill leave rest of post alone as we argued it enough! This quoted section though annoy the hell out of me as its blatently false. Are there bad players in MMORPGs? Sure are. And those same players play mulitplayer games online, post on forums, play NWN, ect. No genre is free and clear of annoying or bad players. In fact, at least MMORPGs have an advantage, dont like a person? /ignore them and you will never hear from them again. In todays MMORPGs with instanted dungeons and quests its not like they can follow you around and harrass you, since quests and such instanted they cant enter your dungeon anyways. Unlike boards where no matter how hard you try to ignore a certain poster you will see their replies now and then. Point is, using players attitudes is just a cop out because there is bad players everywhere. Also, certain games attract certain players. You join WoW you KNOW your playing a game designed for early teens and battlenet kids. So you cant complain when you infact meet up with early teens and battlenet kiddies. DAoC is designed for RVR (player vrs player) so you know the people that like confrontation are going to play that game. EQ2 is designed for older gamers who like questing, so you know your going to meet older players who are interested in questing. Each MMORPG out there is designed for a specific type of player, find the game/player type you interested in and you will have far more positive encounters then negative ones. And the same can not be said for message boards, multiplayer gamers, ect. There is NO ONE type of player that plays MMORPGs. They are made up of many many types of all ages, attitudes, ect. To just lump them all into one catagory just shows your argueing about something you have no knowledge of. What MMORPGs (plural because I have to assume you have played 3 or more for at least 1 year each to validate your excessive opinion about them) did you play? What type of players are your looking for? PS: as for selling online stuff, I wont play a soe game because of it ever again, but I fail to see how a company choice reflects on the players? You do know prior to SOE announcement, EBAY and that japanesse company were doing the same thing for years now, dont you. SOE showed their greed, but how does that reflect on who is playing the game? Are you assuming everyone playing is partaking in such activities? Thats the same as assuming every person that likes Star Wars lives in their mothers basement and has no job. Both completely and utterly false.

Well we disagree there. I found some of the trials very difficult to do (just to open that force sencitive line). And with how badly bounty hunters exploit and cheat, leveling a padawen almost impossible once you have finally finished the trials and associated xp needed. who said anything about repetative quests? I sure didnt. Just make the quests vary between single person and group needed, utilize all the planets available, and you have the foundation for 1000s of specific quests that relate to character. No one said they would be repetative. Also, Jedi is still the pinicale of Star Wars so to those that want to start as a jedi, to bad. There will be more then enough that tough it out. For those wanting instant gratification, they can go play WoW. OK, now your making things up. Lucas couldnt do a damn thing if a player created a Star Wars module using NWN as long as person creating didnt try to charge for it. Might run into copyright laws but simply changing names would fix that. Not a single thing Lucas could do to stop it. As for time, yes it would take a long time to create using NWN tool set. But you would have what you wanted. If it matter enough someone will do it. True, but I did try some of the so called GREAT mods. They played amatuerish to me and I wasnt all that impressed. Back (long time ago) Unlimited Adventures (the original concept for Biowares NWN) allowed players to make computer games in D&D setting (using gold box design tools), same problem happened. Player mods never are as fun or good as professional ones. Player mods lack the storylines, the enviroment richness, and really the balance as well. All the power to them for those that like, I dont! LOL, as for hiring folks. Ever think maybe Bioware saw some potential in those people and under the right supervison they could then (and only then) create worthwhile items. LOL, an amatuer production can show potential, but in the end its still amatuerish! Ill guarentee you those people hired are not given free rein to create what ever they like. Seeing potential is a far cry away from saying those people making professional mods. Or at least I sure havent heard of any new hirlings being given carde blanch to do what they want.

I'm well aware of the history of SWG. Although there are a lot more jedi during the KOTOR time period... There still wasn't a "large population" of them. If there was a KOTOR online, it would be pretty much all jedi. I don't believe that many people would play smugglers or bounty hunters when they could play a Jedi. The only way I feel such an idea would work is if there were a lot more smaller servers instead of a few large ones. That way the player population would be kept at a minimum and it would be more believeable. Then they could have a ranking system for the jedi with the high ranked jedi able to be put on the council. Of course there could only be one sith lord and his apprentice. All others should be fighting for power. I personally would rather see a Star Wars d20 game made using the NWN2 engine/toolset/GM client. This would let us create our own online adventures and persistant worlds. Then everyone could play the way they want to. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Correct me if Im wrong but there is nothing stopping you from creating a D20 Star Wars game with NWN as it is now anyways. Sure you would have to create skins and such but NWN is totally open that way anyways. Just takes a little imagination and alot of effort! FTR: I DONT want a multiplayer KotOR on a NWN system where players make the adventures. I stopped using my NWN because of stupid crappy homemade modules for NWN, dont need to see anouther franchice ruined. I much prefer proffessionally made products. As for to many jedi, once again lets take a statement, expand on it until it screams, then twist it some more for good measure, and then present it back as a reason something is bad. Controling the amount of Jedi characters would be easy. Its already one or the few areas SWG is good in. Their FS trials are demanding, hard, and limit the number of jedis greatly (compared to old way they did it). Just make becoming a jedi very hard and time consumming and you limit the number of jedis in a game. Problem solved. Alternative Jedi System Make a player reach max level for game first as soldier/scout/what ever Make a player complete 100 specific quests to become a padawen. 200-500 specific quests to become a jedi knight. 1000-2000 specific quests to become a master jedi, and you will NEVER run into a problem of having to many jedis. Only those that truely want to be jedis would stay the path. Course those players that play 2 hours a week would complain about system but thats par for course in every game but WoW. And unlike SWG you wouldnt be forced to do stuff you have no interest in (crafting and such)

I think this is a little overdramatic. While I'm sure there is a lot of bullying of kids with gay parents, I don't accept that it is inevitable or that school authorities can't do anything about it. If you're in an area where even the school authorities discriminate against gays, and are allowed to get away with it, then there's a problem. But I think that's becoming rarer. What you think is not relevant though, what you know is. I can make the assumption because I am adopted AND know a fair number of homosexuals and seen the average treatment they get in normal day life. Adding 1 and 2 togather (being knowledgeable in both) is easy for me. School authorities have nothing to do with it. Do you think any school authorities today actively discriminate against race? relegion? ect? Of course not, however that DOESNT stop such discrimination from happening. Your being very nieve in how you look at the world around you. I can understand it, you have never faced those issues so you cant relate to them. I didnt understand racism for many many years as I had never seen it in action. Growing up where I did there was one black family and they were totally and completely accepted by community. Moved to Edmonton and still didnt see racism in action, had a number of black friends. Took one trip to Washington DC and couldnt believe the obvious tension I saw when a black girl moved her stuff so she could share seat with me (had hurt knee so was in pain standing, she made a very nice gester that was appreciated). So I never truely understood racism until I was 35 years old, because thats the first time I ever truely encountered it. But dont confuse lack of knowledge with, thats how the world works, thats a nieve approach to any topic. I'm sorry, but I don't think a white middle class area is necessarily the most tolerant it's possible to get. I'm sorry that you experienced bullying in this way, though. When I taught in Japan, there was a kid whose parents were - shock horror - DIVORCED! This is still very rare in Japan. The girl in question was bullied, but the school fought hard to stop it and succeeded. LOL, Id say a white male growing up in a white demographic is a very fair test model. No outside bias involved. White male in a middle class family growing up in a white middle class area the perfect test area. If it was a black female in a lower class family growing up in a white middle class area, you would have a number of extra factors to calculate in. So Id definately argue with you about the fairness of the situation at hand. Again with the school????? You do realize MOST problems happen off school grounds or away from school presence. School cant solve all of societies problems. Most bias is learned at home, not at school to be fair (not all but most). Oh, and Im just using my example as an example. The trend will change from person to person, place to place. But it outlines the greater issue. If your harrassed for being adopted, added with how society in general looks at homosexuals, that is definately going to add to problems the child encounters. Again, you need actual knowledge for this topic. Opinions are like A**holes, everyone has one. Opinions dont mean squat though, real facts and knowledge do. If the state bans gays from adopting, then it's reinforcing the anti-gay prejudice of some in wider society. It is not a neutral action, it is a damaging action. It is in the wider interest of the child to grow up in a society which is tolerant. You might argue that for one individual you can prevent a gay couple adopting her, possibly making her life a little easier, but reinforcing prejudice. But then if you repeat this a thousand times, you're sending out a powerful, negative message that gays are not suitable parents. It is wrong for the state to do this. Its only reinforcing the anti part if the states says its because gays cant parent. If the states makes it clear the whys to the decision then only the most bias will assume what you just did. And they going to assume that regardless what state does. Sorry, but laws made for the protection of children (and there already is many), people accept as "for the best of the child". Read anymore into that and either your a fanatical participate of pro or against groups on the topic. Your refuseing to look at whats BEST for the child and useing the child to promote your own veiws. Thats exactly what you are doing though Steve. Using the child to promote your own values and veiws. Your values and veiws dont matter in this equation, only whats best for the child matters. Sorry but if you honestly and truely dont think ostracism and bullying is happening in your neighborhood, its either because your own kids doing the bullying or your outta touch. Doesnt have to be about adoption, homosexuals, race, but the ostracising of children by children (usually learned by parents) happens in every neighborhood in every country to some extent. Also, as I said before above, you dont know. You have no knowedge to learn from so you are forced to imagine only. You will never truely understand this topic because you cant learn about it from books. Its like some Univesity bussiness major telling a High School educated Cook (whose been in restraunt feild for 15 years) how to run a restraunt. Its a joke, until that person gets hands on knowledge, he has no clue what hes speaking about regardless of where he went to school. Same thing applies here, either you know or you dont. And when it comes to children, Id prefer people didnt guess to be honest I mean, do you think you know what it was like to be a orphan in 18th century England because you read Oliver Twist? LOL, I spent 4 years in a orphanage and I DONT have any clue what it was like back then. That much I can say for sure.