Kalfear

LOL, to understand the problems of todays MMORPGs, you need to first understand the problems with todays gamers. Gamers demands have created much of the issues and if you speak out against bad ideas expect to be flamed badly. One of the biggest mistakes MMORPGs made in more recent time was giving in to the concept that ALL content should be available to ALL players. At first glance you think this is fair and great but the effect it has is anything but. In traditional MMORPGs, players earned reputations (good and bad) by how they handled obsticles and challenges. Games made many challenges from the easy to do to next to impossible to do. So when a gamer dedicated enough time and energy, and then used his/her earned knowledge to successfully defeat a next to impossible challenge, players heard about it and reputations were born. Be it PvE, Role Playing, PvP, heck even Trivia, those that sacraficed the time and energy to learn about something or become skillfull in something rised above others. Much like a skilled warrior in ancient times to studied harder then his neighbor. Traditional MMORPGs understood that not all players are equal, everyone is given the same starting setting and goods and then those that worked towards their goals rose above others who approached the game more casually or sparatically. As long as there was content available for all players, everyone was happy. Today thats not the case, today people think EVERYONE should be able to experience ALL content regardless of effort or skill in MMORPGs. This very basic principle is what has really hurt recently released games. All gamers are not equal, there is no other way to put it. To design a game thinking they should be means to design a game for the lowest common denominator. Thats not a insult btw, but if you design a game so a person who plays 5 hours a week can keep up to a player who plays 100 hours, the 100 hour player will grow bored and disenchanted with the game. Also there will be no special acheivements because everyone can do it. Something is only special if everyone cant do it. The less that do succeed, the more special it becomes. Todays games lack this very basic and easy principle. But this is what the players want so to speak. Yes they also want things to feel special and to seperate each other from each other, but they also want it with minimal effort or dedication. You cant have it both ways though. So to answer your question, what wrong with MMORPGs today, simply put, is its players. This downward spiral will only stop when a developer finally figures out to ignore the masses and create a quality product NOT based on the masses demands. Make a quality product and it will sell, yes even to those impatient people screaming its up to designers to give them everything rather then earn anything. Sure there is many many many more issues to go along with this topic, but none of those mean anything until develeopers stop pandering to the uneducated and focas on product over flash and sizzle. Dont truely expect that to happen until lowgrade products like WoW run their cycle and fall outta favor. Until then, flash and sizzle rather then concept and design will be the name of the game (baring some rich billionaire making something as a pet project sorta thing).

Fixed. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ROFLMGDAO!!

Fixed gender doesnt bother me in games but after playing through as male I gotta admit I do replay the games that offer female options. KotOR1 and even more so K2 varied the story enough to make the replays entertaining and fun. JE missed the mark here. All in all a fun option.

LOL! Ill just give you this link to different thread. Good discussion on MMORPGs (SWG in specific). http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=34162

show me where in the constitution one group trying to push their values on another is the government's mandate. Thats a dumb reply Taks. Civil rights, womens rights, childrens rights, the right of free speach, the right to choose your own religion, freedom of the press, all these issues at one time or anouther were solved and enforced by the governments and are in the constitutions. Gay Marriage is just anouther item in that list and the government is the ONLY body able to pass law regarding it. So who do you suggest tackles this topic? The churchs? Already did, their answer DOES in fact trample gay peoples rights. Maybe the gay community? Well their answer tamples the right of religion. So who do you suggest handles this topic. Im sorry but just because something not SPECIFICALLY listed in the constitution, doesnt mean its not a issue for government. Both sides are indirectly protected by the constitution though. Is the government suppose to just ignore that? No matter how you spin it, the constitution does include these people (gays and religious). By what your saying, one could argue that Blacks civil rights should have been left up to the people to openly inturpret by themselves. Thats a great idea because many racists were doing such a good job of it before the government steped in werent they? (that was sarcasm btw). This is an issue about civil rights and about freedom of religion, plus more. Of course the governments have the right to step in. again, show me where this is even constitutional. i made my point quite clear, the idea of marriage is NOT the government's responsibility. tax breaks for married folks is an unconstitutional reach into our lives by the government. Well totally agree with you here, Tax breaks (or penalties) just because your married dont make a whole lot of sence to me either. If the government wants to encourage child birth then those tax breaks should appear when a child enters the scene, not before. Regardless if the "parents" hetrosexual or homosexual. However, its short sighted to say the government shouldnt rule because they shouldnt be involved WHEN THEY ALREADY ARE! Yes the government shouldnt be involved, but when they gave tax breaks based on the subject and empowered NONE religious figures to create marriages, they BECAME involved. Your ignoreing the fact the governments have been involved in marriages already so YES, now they have the responcibility to see that involvment to the end. And again, even if you took away the right of non religious figures (judges, boat captains, justices of the peace) to do marriage ceremonies, the government would still have to deal with the civil rights and freedom of religion issues as THOSE ARE IN THE CONSTITUTION! who cares? if the government got out of it all together, it wouldn't matter. As I said above, government has a responcibility to be involved no matter how its looked at, no matter what side of arguement you on. Long as civil rights and freedom of religion involved government involved. same point i've already made a half dozen times. Yup sorry dude, but where, again, in the constitution is the "right" of marriage granted? all people have equal rights, gays, straights, whatevers... marriage is not one of those. no, it doesn't. it should be out of the business all together. find the clause in the US constitution that says marriage is a federal mandate. find the clause that says gays, or straights, or some ethnic minority should have their rights spelled out more clearly than the rest of ours. taks <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Blacks rights, womens rights come to mind immediately. Those two examples of people who had to have their rights spelled out more clearly because others didnt look at them as people prior to that. See I think you entering the issue that gays are treated like everyone else already. And in some areas you would be correct, but in others they definately are not. For example, a justice of the peace has the right/authority to marry people who do not wish to be married by a specific religion. So does a justice of the peace have the right to NOT marry a couple? Personally I dont think he/she does. I think a JoP has to marry ANYONE that comes to them long as they meet the countries laws of marriage (have a licence, are of age, ect). Sexuality should not play a role in the choice. HOWEVER, I do beleive ANY minister, rabbi, preist, shaman, what ever, has the right to REFUSE to marry a couple that do not stand up to the churchs belifs and standards. Its up to the church if they do the ceremony, not the couple getting married. Personally Im all for gay marriage to be honest, just not at the expence of religious freedom and not at the cost of adding untold more couples into a broken and outdated tax shelter. Fix the tax exemption issues (canada) and insane marriage prevliges (for example: a 30%-50% drop in insurence rates the day your married. Like getting married makes someone a better driver??? I been driveing for 24 years now, never had an accident, no tickets, and my insurence is higher then a 20 year old who just got married! Figure that one out! oh and yes, that insurence break is government mandated...like insurence companies ever give a break that not forced on them, lol). Fix those things first then by all means marry away! adding more people to problem/broken systems NEVER turns out good or works. PS: To other poster. Geeee if Martin was that clear as you make him out to be 34 of his party members wouldnt be up in arms about it now would they? Gawd I hate liberal fanbois! Use some common sence man. Blind devotion always leads to problems! Read the freaking bill and NOT Martins press clippings for the facts before you speak. Why take the word of a known criminal and liar over the actual writting on the bill. (for Americans: Sadly Watergate has nothing on our current Canadian Government..sad time for Canadian Politics). And besides, nice of you to bring up Alberta and NOT mention that regardless what the federal government mandates, Ralph Klien has already said clearly and with out any political double talk Martin famos for that he will use the NOT WITHSTANDING clause of the Canadian Constitution to VOID any and all marriage rights for gays in Alberta. So in Alberta its a non issue anyways as Gay marriage, civil union, what ever will not be recognized as legal plain and simple and gay couples will not be able to get married there. As has 2 other provinces in Canada (maritime provinces). Hold a freaking referendum, let CANADIANS themselves decide and be doine with it all is what I say. PPS: Attomic Space Vixen Well there you go, you just said it yourself. You said you dont want this forced on churchs yet you then turn around and say this? TRADITIONAL marriages are preformed IN CHURCHS!!! So you dont want or accept civil union, WHAT DO YOU WANT??????? The churchs dont want you, you dont want JoPs and such, where is the middle ground?????? (shakes head) this is why (RESPOINCIBLE ) government is required (which Canada doesnt currently have so this issue will come back regardless what Martin forces on people) to come to the solution. Anyways, Im done with topic,. This thread shows why this topic so hot everywhere. People just look past facts and create fiction to try and validate their own opinion. ASV is such a clear example of "forget logic, give me what I want" its scary to me. Terrifying really.

perhaps the government should just get out of arenas that are not within its mandate to regulate? seriously, why does government have to sanction any marriage? why? in the case of the US, exactly where in the consitution is this a power granted the federal government? btw, in case any of you didn't know, up till bush's repeal of the "marriage penalty," it really was NOT a good idea to be legally married if both spouses worked (well, at least if the 2nd wage was a significant portion of the total income). i got crushed on taxes the first couple years. of course, it does not matter anymore as my wife stays home with the manchkin. the same goes for the whole concept of "equal rights." we all have the same rights in the US, as stated by the consistution. nowhere is there an explicit right to a job, which is the primary focus of equal rights legislation. the government is unnecessarily messing in the lives and functions of private citizens and businesses (even publicly traded companies are "private" in the sense that they are not owned or run by the government). given today's more open society (a good thing IMO), any company that blatantly discriminated would be beat up on the marketplace. that would be their punishment, not government sanctions. taks PS: yes, i realize bush didn't actually do the repealing. congress did. bush just proposed it. either way, it was his baby. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well I can answer this part anyways. Government is required to be involved because you have one group discriminating against the other and the other group trying to push their own values on the first group. Left to either side of the conflict, no answer will ever be found. Thats why government is required to step in. Also, since "Marriage" (in Canada or the USA) entitles the married couple to provencial/State and federal TAX EXCEPTIONS, you need the government to step in because they are the ones in charge of taxation laws. So I DO think its up to the governments to come up with solutions on this topic because neither side is willing to compromise and the effect of the topic will have an impact on government sanctioned taxation laws and regulations. And yes Taxation is a HUGE part of the whole gay marriage issue. Ill use Canada as a example (honestly just dont know enough to comment fairly or correctly on USA taxation laws). In Canada, "Marriage" entitles the couple to MAJOR tax breaks and additional exceptions mandated by the government. Many of these tax break were put in during the 1970s by Trudeau to promote child birth by married couples. These same tax breaks do NOT apply to common law or civil unions. *side note: This doesnt include adoption, as adoption tax laws are covered under adoption laws, so the fact anyone (gay or straight) can adopt is a non issue in regards to the marriage tax laws issue* In Canada the gay population REFUSED the civil union option that was MASSIVELY (meaning basically common law union preformed by a justice or time spent togather under same roof) supported by a astonishing majority of Canadians because they would not get the tax breaks that hetro sexual couples enjoy. Regardless of them being pysically unable to achieve the literal meaning for the tax break (that being getting pregnant from their spouse). Instead they have pushed for the not widely supported "Marriage" which suggests it must be done by a church representative or justice of the peace. However, the questions come up, outside of the taxation stuff. Do you grant this right and at the same time ignore the right of others to freedom of religion??? Fact is not all churchs support gay marriage and what is being asked for by the homosexual communities in Canada (as verified by Paul Martins latest bill about the subject) is that these people would have no other option but preform the ceremony or be charged for discrimination. *side note: Our government in real danger currently because Martins own party members (who support Gay marriage but with restrictions regarding impact on religions...."They basically saying a preist can refuse to preform ceremony if such union against church beliefs", which BTW I think is totally fair to all sides. One liberal party members has already quit his party and whole government in danger of lossing a "no confidence vote" and being dissolved* If we do that however, where do we stop? Should we force Jehova Witnesses to take blood transfusions regardless of their religion? Should we tell siek women that they are not allowed to cover their faces in public regardless of their religion? List goes on and on, from religion to religion. So yes the government does have to step in and act. A responcible government would hold a referendum on the topic during an election but neither Canada or the US has a responcible government at the moment. Bush says no, Martin says yes, and neither willing to actually listen to THE PEOPLE of the countries they suppose to represent! (sorry mild rant on irresponcible government). Point is, the best solution on gay marriage would be for NO ONES rights to be trampled. But since the religious organizations and the gay communities are not mature enough to comprimise to ensure all parties are met in the middle, we do require our elected officals (IE: Governments) to deal with the arguement. Sad thing is, no matter what the government decides, you just know the losing side will appeal in the courts anyways!

I disagree. Richard Garriot was one of the premier RPG designers, and Ultima Online failed to deliver a true RPG experience. Most MMO designers will tell you that they are trying to capture the single-player RPG experience, in adding a story with depth. But it's hard to script a story for 100,000 players. I was a story-teller in an international LARP game with thousands of players. Running a table-top game for your friends is far easier than crafting a story for a game where 80 players might show up, and you don't know what characters will be in play. MMOs face the same problem on a bigger scale. In KOTOR, you were Revan. You were the main character, and you were at the center of the action. Games like the Matrix Online are trying to allow players to get enough fame and reknown to eventually impact major plots in the Matrix universe. But single players in a game that scale will likely never get the same experience as they did when they played a single player game like KOTOR. MMOs have their strengths, and their weaknesses. I'm sure you can make interesting quests, and do more to improve MMOs, but I don't think an MMO will ever capture the true cinematic Star Wars experience. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL, Garriot was a hack, but we obviously disagree on this point! I alpha/beta tested UO and knew from the get go it was going to fail soon as their was real compitition to it (which happened immediately when EQ came on the scene) because it was designed as FFA PVP game. The cancelled accounts got so bad after EQ came on the scene that Garriot ran away with his tail between his legs and a mirror copy of the UO world was made and coded as totally non pvp. Soon as that happened the PvP areas became barren, rarely visited, ghost areas to the point that Origin had to create UBER drop Champion Spawns in the PvP areas just to get some of the adventures to re enter the pvp areas. UO from day 1 was plauged with exploits, bugs, corrupt GMs, and just about every other problem you could imagine. Its no wonder that today MORE people play on FREE Player created and run shards then subscribe to UO. It took these players YEARS to break and copy and learn the UO coding but they did it so they could play on non Origin (no idea who bought it from origin) run UO worlds. Thats how ground breaking Richard Garriot was. Heck, even in offline games, SSI's gold box games were ten times the game Ultima was, for me anyways. But I digest! No game, be it offline or online will ever capture the effect of a Original ran movie (IE: Movie came out first). But MMORPGs can if designed correctly capture the exitement and continuing feeling of adventure found in offline games. Sure you wont be Revan, who cares? In a MMORPG you can be GREATER then Revan, Greater then the Exile, Greater then Darth Vader, but you have to EARN that status. Unlike in a offline game where you have a cutscreen of NPCs cheering you, you have to earn the deeds so the other players cheer you. And that does actually happen when a game is designed correctly. Sure that will not happen in WoW because that game is designed so EVERYONE can do EVERYTHING, there is no seperation, nothing is overly special. Going back to EQ, when the first person (not me) finished all 10 stages of the giant quest it was known across the server and for a period of time that player was famous to his peers (others that played the game). So Im sure he had the same exileration you find in a offline game. Throw in a well made cut screen movie for the end of quest and he could have had the NPCs cheering him as well. But unlike a offline game, hes NOT finished, he can continue on a fter that and let his reputation grow even more. Anyway you look at it, thats an accomplishment. Speaking for myself, 15 years ago I played Neverwinter Nights on AOL. I was totally addicted to PvP an unlike todays pvp it was set up in a matter of contests. We ran a pvp ladder, you would start at the bottom and work your way up through defeating those above you in pvp contests. I did fairly well on the singles ladder but was apart of one of the top 3 teams on the doubles ladder. I can say with no exageration, I earned a great deal of recognition in that game because of this. To the point that 14 years later I logged into a player run version of it and my name was still recognized as one of the more known old time players of the original. That made me smile and added some jump to my step, so to speak. So yes you can capture a wide range of emotions from a MMORPG just as you can from a offline game. Either if well made can capture the same emotional responce. Only true difference is the offline game ends. The MMORPG continues on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}> Strange, I think WoW is the very absolute bottom of the barrel. An MMORPG on training wheels, sorry no thanks, I prefer substance over flash!

When did I do that? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> not you Phantom, NCR made a post in different thread spreading his "wisdom" about how SWG was ruined because there was so many jedi running around (blatently false statement that anyone who has played knows). Sorry, I should have been more clear in my question.

But Ender, you do the fatal flaw. You say what MMORPGs are and NOT what they could be. There is ABSOLUTELY nothing stopping a developer from designing a MMORPG with what you asked for. You can have the soundtracks, you can have the grandiose storyline, story archs characters in MMORPGs. Its ALL been done already. Just developers thus far are to lazy or ignorant to the concepts to add them. FFXI had the cut screens EQ had the grandiose storyline (you should check out their giants quest, 10 stages of fantastic story and adventure) There has been a MMORPG that allowed you to hire NPC character to travel with you. Rather then one story arch you have have multiple story archs in MMORPGs. And yes you can add pvp, crafting, leveling and all that as well. Point is, you CAN have it all in a MMORPG. Just companies like Blizzard and SOE (most blatent companies as of late) refuse to give what the communities have been asking for and force THEIR versions on you. Just because its been done wrong thus far doesnt mean it cant be done RIGHT in the future!

Why wouldnt you rent games? It's always better to find out things first hand and for the minuscule ammount it costs seems like a bargain. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Just dont like renting (im terrible about late fees and such). So I go by the code "either im buying it or im not". Also, 99.99% of the time I know if I want a game or not. This game just fell into that .01% margin because of the TV ad. Prior to the TV ad I had no interest what so ever in it. Just personal choice is all. We all have our own little personality quirks. heh, also only places to rent around here are Blockbuster and Rogers video. I stopped supporting Blockbuster 3 years ago when I was overcharged for movie returns (actually got them back on time for a change and works left them in drop box till next morning causeing me a 5 one day late charges and wouldnt erase the charges). As for Rogers, I refuse to rent anything from them until they lower my cable bill (I currently pay $36.00/month more for the exact same services a friend has from a different cable company with no option to change companies because of them having a monopoly! They get enough of my money as it is!)

what the major change was they removed the 3 bar (health, stamina, mind) system and made a 1 bar system similair to what you find in other games out there. Why this was needed was in the old system there was special attacks that targetted a specific bar. So you could just repeatibly hit the same special attack over and over killing your oponent. For instance, a player could have 1000 health but only 200 mind. This would be similiar to say playing a barbarian in D&D. Physically strong but mentally weak. So a player could walk up and hit his mind attack 3 times and kill the opponent making the players health totally void. New system goes on health and removes the special targetable attacks so that armor and such matter more. Also in the old system stats decreased with the more armor you wore making buffs mandatory and everyone ran around in the same uber style of armor. New system limits armor types to specific classes. So BHS can wear Composite, TKA cant wear any, ect. No idea about protests but the end effect of the Combat Upgrade just made Bounty Hunters the FotM class, so the mass majority of people now play BHs. So while it fixed one problem it created more problems then it fixed. Of course ALL these issues were Fore told by the players and SOE ignored them because SOE only listens to a set group of players that are pro PvP and have 20+ million credits in their bank accounts and DONT represent the majority of the player base. So I wouldnt be surprised if protests where happening as SOE is once again shuning its players which is hardly a new development. I did hear that the latest expansion finally had a strong quest system in it that SWG has been lacking since day one. But since thats only 1 planet and the other planets from original game still lack any type of storyline or immersion its not a big selling point. SWG is a great game poorly designed and even more poorly upgraded and maintained. There is a ton of issues that need to be addressed drastically for the game to dig itself out of the deeps. Question back to you: if you have never played the game why are you posting in other thread about the amount of jedis running around? Obviously you have no clue what you were spoeaking about (as I guessed when I replied to you). Dont you think you should have actual knowelge about a topic before posting something as fact to others??????

While I wont argue that the time period SWG used has hurt the game (as that time era is to stringent and really less exciting then the KotOR time frames) I, having played SWG on 2 different occations now for over 6 month periods each time, really get bored with the false assumptions that jedis are so common and hurt the game. Lets go over the actual facts on what hurts SWG: 1) Time Frame. Its boring to be rather blunt. The time frame is the same one used in ANH for the most part and it lacks the factions needed to create a truely engrossing game. All there is (for players) is rebel or Imperial. KotOR time frame adds a much greater amount of feasible factions so you are not forced into one or the other. 2) Classes. One of the greatest draw backs to SWG is 2 specific classes. A) Creature Handlers: This class plays NO PART in Star Wars enviroment and really is only apart of the game because it was a favorite of the designers from UO. It comes as no surprise that its also a GREATLY overpowered class because of that fact. B) Bounty Hunters: While people will argue (and rightfully to some extent) Bounty Hunters do play a great part in Star Wars history, the fact of the matter is BHs in SWG are used ONLY as a excuse to FORCE pvp on unwilling players. Currently BHs reknown for useing a exploit to get newbie padawens listed on the BH terminals so they can then use their BHs to get the bounty (even though newbie padawens suffer a HUGE xp loss and are as powerful as a newly rolled character...IE: no challenge what so ever). With out a complete redrafting of Bounty hunters classes, they will remain the number 1 class that ruins SWG for players. Should also be noted that BHs almost NEVER attack a Jedi Knight or higher because there is a very good chance the Jedi Knight will win (as one would expect) so in effect all the BH class allows is PKING of newbies. Just like those idiots that farm newbie zones in all PK games/shards. It not that its a challenge (its not) its just the fact they can ruin someone elses day by constantly farming them over and over with ZERO chance of being defeated themselves. That folks is NOT a good design for a class or a game EVER! Every game to date that has gone with this rule set has failed and either gone bankrupt or changed their rules to allow save adventureing zones. Every game that supports all PK shards/worlds/servers has close to the lowest population (or actual lowest population) for that shard/world/server. That also doesnt even start to address the problems SWG encounters from having a class that is allowed to PK unwilling or unagreeing players. Forced PvP is proven (unconsentual pvp) to be the biggest game breaker for a MMORPG through out the entire history of MMORPGs. Anyone that argues that FACT is either point blank lieing or totally and completely uninformed regarding the issue. The history doesnt lie and is there for anyone who spends the moments needed to understand the issue. 3) Broken Economy. SWG tried, and failed, to go with a player run economy where the players create EVERYTHING. This failed as it created such a high cost enviroment that new players will never be able to afford goods and old players will always have the advantage in regards to equipment, be it armor, speeders, weapons, what ever. Their attempts just outright failed. 4) Lack of quests. SWG has missions that are generic and uninteresting. The NPC quests you can get are identical copies of the different missions and fail to create any type of story, enviroment, or interest. Also terminal missions rewards are much better then the existing quests meaning the only other reason (better loot) is non existant as well. 5) Time sinks. Many players in EQ, DAoC, AC, Lineage, ect complain about leveling time sinks yet ALL of those games pale in comparrison to the unneded/unwanted/boring time sinks SWG makes you do. There leveling system while intellegently hidden is just your basic leveling system found in any other game really. The leveling itself tho is 100 times more boring. Its just a bad system over all. But so was Ultima Onlines and since SWG is nothing more then UO enhanced and with a Star Wars shell, its no great surprise its bad. I could go on into lag issues caused by people leaving a barker droid in a city causeing you lag as they shout the same thing over and over annoying people. How jumbled up the party system is in game, how speeders HUGELY hurt the game, and more. All these issues are major things that break SWG. How many jedi there are just isnt even in the top ten. Its just a exagerated excused used by those that have never played the game or failed to acheive a jedi of their own in the game. For as much as its complained about one would think its a HUGE issue BUT ITS NOT. SWG has a ton of problems that a KotOR MMORPG could address easily and fairly (frankly other then the time era setting, SOE could (if they wanted to) could also address). Jedi are just quite frankly not one of those issues and anyone with ANY knowledge of MMORPGs in general and SWG in specific would know that. Sorry for rant but tired of reading stupid stuff like this. Its stupid posts like this (saying to many Jedi) that has caused many of the problems in SWG as SOE has taken them serious over the years and made changes only to see their subscription rate drop lower and lower and lower (The jedi Revamp made it actually harder to get a jedi then before and it came as no surprise to experienced players that it failed to stop the bleeding regarding cancelled accounts). Just like this lastest combat upgrade change. It has failed to attract people back because it only addressed problems from a bias area and NOT from those that posted why they were leaving. If SOE spent more time reading why people leave rather then listening to those only interested in improving game for themselves they would be in alot better condition. No surprise that of those leaving game, to many jedi never seems to get mentioned EVER! (and why should it when in a 8 hour period of playing you "MIGHT" see 2 maybe 3 jedis total anyways, and they never interacting with you anyways usually as jedi take a xp penalty for grouping with non jedi) Its just a urban legend excuse. Just like those that say SWG is EQ in space. If those that said that actually played SWG and EQ they would know the two games are about as opposite as 2 games can be on every aspect. Now, lets look at what a KotOR MMORPG (useing same style engine as offline games ) could achieve right outta the box. 1) Grouping. The engine and design used in KotOR 1 and 2 makes grouping and targeting much freindlier then the style SWG uses. Since FFXI uses a similiar engine this is already PROVEN FACT. Remember, im not speaking about the forced grouping design of FFXI but about grouping in general. 2) Time Frame. Being the Old Republic, this means a MMORPG could have different factions a person could join. Be it the republic, the sith, czerka, trade federation, Hutts, what ever. Since there really is no great one all mighty commander (republic there but its reach is short at best). Players could join any of these factions and quest and adventure based on their choices. Or they could join none and hire themselves out on a job to job status. Imagine going through the Sith Academy trials to become a sith. Or jedi trials on Corosaunt or Dant to become a jedi. The options are endless. 3) More Jedi. I say this just because some people like to bitch and moan that ANH era isnt suppose to have jedi. Honestly its just a case for suspended disbelief and anyone with common sence knows that but what ever. Use this time frame and people can stop nit picking the most literal reading of the setting. Yes there is such a thing as being totally anal and this topic is one of them IMO! What the "*whaaaa* there to many jedi *whaaa*" posters fail to realise is JEDI SELL! Its the jedi that are the reason the mass majority try Star Wars. Remove the jedi and you remove its NUMBER ONE selling point. 4) Economy. Having seen the negative effects in DAoC and SWG they could avoid totally player run economies (all items worth anything created by players) and go back to a EQ style (but instanced to avoid the wait times and respawns that caused problems in EQ) of questing for best items. 5) PVP Entire planets that are pro pvp. Planets like Malacor V could be pvp enabled where as planets like Dantoine are not. This allows for the faction vers faction much like you find in DAoCs RvR. You know adventureing on Malacor V you are agreeing to pvp there for eliminating the unconsentual pvp that ruins pvp in many games. The could place temples and such on Malacor that would give specific factions and/or guilds/alliances special SMALL bonuses in pvp (sorta like holding a Relic did in DAoC). While the majority of planets would be totally non pvp, they could have outter rim planets that are pro pvp. Those interested in pvp could go there, those not could stay in known space. 6) Quests!!!!!! Star Wars should be about quests in my opinion. Thats all the off line games are, stories being told inside a setting. This is where SWG fails. Goto the Ewok villiages, not a single quest to be found. When you do find a quest its boring, its kill off a set number of whatever of find and escort a npc back. Quest should be much more involved and tell a story. 7) Cut Screens. FFXI proved that cutscreens DO WORK in a MMORPG. So we could have the same thing in a KotOR MMORPG which would greatly improve the enviroment of the quest/mission your on. Fact is, Star Wars hasnt been done correctly yet. For as many good things as SWG has (housing is great but overdone like UO), its negatives far outweight the positives. A KotOR MMORPG could fix all those things and create a great experience for all players. There truely is no need for a nwn style game because its already been done. Its called NWN and with a little work and imagination you could easily create a Star Wars module useing the NWN tool set. There is NO copyright laws stopping you, onlything stoping you is YOUR imagination and dedication. If you dont have time to make a Star Wars module from the existing program, you wont have time to create a star wars module if they released the game specifically for star wars anyways. Either way alot of programing will be required.

the exile is a mute?! how about revan!! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, because if you switch between characters in KOTOR at least Revan says things like "Yes?" or "What?" and he/she grunts and yells and such during battle, which I believe added a nice affect. KOTOR2.... mute. Exile fights, Exile dies, Exile makes no sound. Exile = mute. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Im sorry but thats the stupidest arguement ive ever heard. Youyr picking one game over the other because the PC says "What" and "Yes"? ROFLMAO! Please tell me you have more reasons then just that! !!!!!! To funny!

I think the games are more interesting because of the time period involved. I REALLY like the Old Republic more then the time period used for the original 3 Star Wars Movies. In the prequals there was some sights and hints of the old republic and that made the prequals interesting as well. On the flip side though, as others have said, K1 really was just ANH in a different time frame so storywise they about even. K2 however really got more involved in the jedi stuff and Old Republic stuff more so then any of the movies (1-6) so K2 was more interesting for me. All in all, Id love to see some movies made useing the Old Republic time era, its just way more interesting then the time eras used in the SW movies currently IMO. Still cant wait for K3 though K2 was awsome and I want the story to continue so badly

What you seem to miss is that this game was never intended to be an RPG. It is and has always been an action-adventure game designed with a sci-fi story in mind. Personally, as I said earlier, I absolutely loved it. And in my opinion, judging the quality of a game based on the developer's ability at rhetoric surpasses stupidity. Skill at one task is not to be judged by a deficiency in an unrelated aspect of life. I suggest you try it at least by renting it before completely writing it off. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually Arch, if you listen to the designer interveiw they flat out admit they brought whats his name in to beef up the characters and storyline. So yes, they are trying to be a FPS with heavy RPG as well. So nope, didnt miss that what so ever, just went off what the designers said, plain and simple. And nope, I dont rent rent games (only buy the ones I really want) so its written off for me. When designers fail to build my interest in their own game, thats a bad sign from the get go. I usually dont put much stock in reviews (as they are either so bias or bought and paid for) but gotta admit gamespots review seemed to cover the game pretty well (for a change). Game just doesnt hold any interest for me, I will give them credit for making a great TV ad about it though. Game is written off from this consumer, hopefully Other companies out there will start making RPGs along the lines of KotOR or JE style so I dont have to wait so long for good RPGs in the future.

I saw an ad on tv for this yesterday and it caught my eye, but after listening to the designer interviews I pretty much wrote it off as those two guys I found to be TERRIBLE speakers and didnt instill any convidenc e about there game itself. After watching the actual review of game gotta say Im going to pass. Whole thing SEEMS to be a rpg trying to pass itself off as a FPS style of game. Hated Halo and this game ranks about the same for me to be honest. Its a shame, I was hoping people would notice the success of KotOR franchise and JE and start making quality RPGs again.

Took me around 35 hours total playing time. I felt it was still a short game (longer then K1 but still short) but after playing JE and its 20 hours of content I cant really complain about a game with 35 hours of content.

Voted maybe. If they come out with KotOR3 or a RPG of the same style then yes. If they continue to stick to FPS and RT combat games, then no. Simple as that.

You been told correctlly, As long as you are not making it for distribution of any type, copyright laws dont effect you. Best way would be to contact Lucas Arts and ask them. The chances of them giving you permission are next to none though. Again, you only need to worry about contacting them if you plan to distribute the game. Assuming that you even get their attention and get in the door to make your plea (which is rare but has happened in the past) You would want to create a bussiness presentation detailing your ideas, where you are going with them, projected earnings, ect. Basically you need to have a bussiness model ready for them covering all aspects of earnings and ideas and such. You would definately want to speak to someone that has experience in this area to help you along with a lawyer or 2 so your aware of how the copyright laws affect you in the country you live in. Many copyright laws change from country to country so I wont even hazzard a guess of how strict or loose English laws are compared to Canadian and American copyright laws. Well obviously you will need to find people interested in design and programming first off. Since you stated you dont plan to release this, you will also want to make sure you can trust these people to NOT turn around and release it behind your back anyways when finished. A good place to look for these will be when you goto University/College. There you will find others of like mind and interests. LOL, at age 16 I would imagine that you would have trouble finding folks. Thats not a insult btw, just making a game takes a huge amount of dedication and sacrafice in todays games. Long gone are the days where one or 2 people can sit down and design a complete computer game. Today it takes teams of many people. Best bet will be to write down your ideas for future reference and when you enter university or college to find other people of like minded interests. Well, wish I could give you a more possitive reply but in todays market (not just gameing) Ideas no longer get you in the door many times. Your still very young though and you have a passion, so expand on that passion, get training in that feild and make contacts from that training. University and College are SO important in todays markets that they have become mandatory aspects. Go out and get that training, dedicate yourself to it. After your trained, earn experience in the feild and work your way up. Once you hit a certain plateu, then you cna start to get notice for your ideas (this is the safe route). If your not into the slow but steady route you can always try for a bussiness loan, hire some friends (contacts you can make in many cases by going to school) and take a chance that your idea will sell. Its more risky but the up side is, if your right and your product does sell, you only have to answer to yourself and have 100% control over your own creativity. What I said probably not what you want to hear, but in todays markets, education and training are the way things get done. Your 16 so your a step up right now because you know what you want to do. Keep a journal of your ideas though so you can come back to them at any time in the future. As you grow you can expand on them. Also, just a FYI thing, while you might plan to make a star wars game. If you tweak it enough (names and such) and avoid using copyrighted material (lightsabres, ect) you can change your SW ideas into Sci Fi ideas. And if its sci fi, Lucas has no control or say over it what so ever.

hmmm you killed Carth on the Star Forge did you? thats pretty amazing as if you go DS Carth doesnt even make it to the Star forge (runs away from you on the planet below).

Lets look at what you just said: Samuel Jackson: Excellent actor who is terrible misused in the Star Wars movies. BTW, thats a pretty common statement across the board from general people and critics (one of the VERY few times I agree with Critics btw). His character lacked any real dialog in any of the movies. So how you think he was awsome in these films is beyond me, go look at some of his other work out there to see what he is capable of. Christopher Lee: Again great actor with no real scenes other then two main fighting scenes (in which a body double was used because his arthritis is so bad he could barely hold the lightsabre hilt). Sorry but two fighting scenes does not a great actor make. Ewan McGregor: AWSOME actor. the one REAL shining point in the Star Wars movies. If it wasnt for Ewan these films would have crashed and burned (well him and CGI flash and all that). Hayden: ROFLMAO! You cant seriously be saying Hayden in the same breath as the above three names. Thats just insulting! Hayden lacked depth in any of his preformances in the movies. And well you obviously have a love affair going with Ian so Ill not comment there. Other then Ewan, none of them truely stand up to the preformance Harrison did. Harrison took his limited material and pulled you into his character so you cared. Carrie Fisher was basically a Padami character so Ill not go into that. Point is, just because episodes 1,2,3 had more recognized actors doesnt mean they were used or able to use their abilities. They were not! For the record I liked episodes 1,2,3 more then 4,5,6. But this wasnt grand acting and anyone that says it was is totally out to lunch. This was escapism pure and simple and the effects in 1,2,3 were so top notch that it made the escapism worthwhile and fun. Story wise though, pretty much any sci fi TV series has better storylines and demands more of their casts. Just watch and enjoy the movies for what they are. BTW Nu, bet yas any amount of money none of the actors get nods for best actors and Lucas doesnt get nod for best director! Why because none of them deserve it plain and simple!

heheh thats cool Eldar. Hope you like it I didnt like AO myself but I firmly beleive that there is a MMORPG out there for everyone. Dont like one try anouther, you will find what you like eventually and play it more then enough to warrent the monthly rate as a non issue! Just for the love of god remember, no MMORPG out there is better then any other one, they all have their pluses and minus, and different people will like different MMORPGs for different reasons. Biggest problem IMO in MMORPGs IMO is the unbending fanbois out there that think their game is better then everything else. If you like a game great, if you dont...thats fine to, but for god sakes, please remember to actually have some semblance of actual real information about the game your speaking about other then "my friend told me who heard it from some other friend who heard it from someone they never met that.....". Message boards would be so much more pleasent if people did that rather then rant away about some product as being the 2nd coming just because THEY are playing it.

Not when you visit Kashyyyk first then spend the next 10 hours of the game waiting for the the rest of the universe to catch up. Bioware did exactly the same thing in Jade Empire. Its either that subtle storytelling is beyond them. They are intentially writing for stupid people who dont pay attention to what is going on, or they are so proud of their plot twists that the feel the need to illumiate them with "neon signs". The fact that KOTOR II dosnt rely on any sort of twist is one of the things that makes the story more interesting. Plot twists are one off devices which even if they work well, and done well they can certainly enhance a story "Luke I am your Father" but you will never get that same shock value subsequently. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> SP, I dont think Bioware is incapable of writing subtle storytelling, I think they write to their audience. Which is a good bussiness practice to be honest. I know (other then being Revan) nothing in KotOR1 surprised me and NOTHING at all in JE surprised me (By the start of chapter 3 I had guess ALL twists in the plot correctly). Yet you visit Bioware boards and you see never ending posts from people claiming they WERE surprised. Then you look back at these boards when K2 was originally released and you see the never ending threads from players who didnt understand parts or all of the story lines. LOL, there was endless posts about K2 being bugged when in fact the answers to peoples questions were in the storyline if they paid attention. It just becomes appearent the many many players out there DONT want to be challenged or forced to think far as storylines goes, they want it all layed out clearly with no forshadowing what so ever. So Bioware is writing to their customer base. I agree its fustrating to not be challenged and not have to think, but many players only skim read rather then actually read whats being said in todays linear games. Thats how they want it. I still rank K2 as better then K1 or JE because it was NOT written for the reading impaired but when you look at the shear number of posts you have to realize people just dont want to be challenged in their games today. Its just a said truth to todays gaming, if it challenges you beyond combat its bad. You see it over and over in many titles. Those that said Halo had a good story (its story was written like a freaking Jack and Jill book), those that hated K2 storyline or claim it was less detailed then K1 story, those that say K1 or JE wasnt linear or predictable. Heck, just look at this poll itself and how many "THINK" K1 storyline was better. Anyone who reads even casually knows K2 was better written, but K1 was much much much more direct in its writing style. I agree with you, but afraid we in the minority on this one.