Kalfear

I personally think Volo just been drinking heavily! heheh Yas should have seen one of his/her posts on Bioware forums!!! *grins, Volo knows which one, LOL* Seriously though, While I dont always agree with Volo, he/she definately isnt some rabid fanboi either. He/she makes you actually "Think" when you debate with him/her. Not just spout nonsence. Course having said all that, K2 is still more mature then JE

ROFLMAO! Beleive it or not, YOUR NOT the biggest fanboi around (sorry volo, yas just going to have to keep working at it, LOL). Most of your stuff (except the obvious jabs you make) are based in reality. For example, I know for a fact you think having 2 party NPCs in JE2 would be a step up! This means you actually see areas to improve the game! Right there you lose ultimate fanboi status. Or you admit you played game completely with in 30 hours. The Ultimate Fanboi reads the 1000s of posts saying that and then replies with "Game took me 40-50 hours because I explore everything and enjoy Biowares writing". IE: they make things up at random so they can try and ignore any faults. LOL, sorry Volo, you have aways to go to become the ultimate Fanboi (and its not something Id suggest to actually try for to be honest!). and exploding drunken rats IS mature? ROFLMGDAO!!!!!!!! KotOR2 more mature then JE Just accept it! Yas know yas wanna!

LOL, sorry Yann, Of the 50+ I knew that were playing it, not one remains in there at this point in time. That alone kinda tells the tale though doesnt it?

Proof is in the forums Volo. If you wanna wade through all those old posts be my guess Im sure not going to at this point in time! LOL LOL, did I say EVERY BW fanboi. Nope I didnt! Thus ends your statement. But its still more mature then K1 or JE

I dont think KotOR2 sucked. Frankly I enjoyed it more then part 1 because the plot and storylines were not as appearent as part 1 was. However, regarding the KotOR2 Sucked posts, I think thats because of a few things (some beyond Obsidians or anyones control). 1) No Revan. I prefer the exile, I find him to be far more an interesting character then Revan was, but fact remains people grew fond and attatched to Revan so his lack of presence was obviously going to rock the boat right from the get go. 2) Obsidian made rather then Bioware made. I personally think this is the "MAIN area of contention (even though very few will actually admit it) regarding KotOR2 sucks threads. Bioware (and Blizzard) have a unique problem that im sure many other companies wished they had. They attract a almost fanatical crowd of fans who think they can do no wrong. Im not joking what so ever when I say, if Bioware put out the EXACT same product rather then Obsidian, the complaints would literally drop in half. Thats not to say there wasnt issues with the game (there was), just that Obsidian could have put out the most finished, greatest ever made, unbelievable RPG, and as long as Bioware remained the makers of KotOR1, Obsidian didnt stand a chance at a fair shake or treatment. I was around here from the start of KotOR2, and the mass mass mass number of people that stated loudly and consistantly that KotOR2 would suck because its not Bioware making it (before it even went on sale) would make your head spin. Those folks had their minds made up long before the product ever hit the shelves. 3) Not enough changes in game. Obsidian needed to make enough changes to make people see this is their franchise now. KotOR2 (while the better game IMO) was still far to similar to KotOR1 that many players wouldnt give it it's proper due because they see it as a copy rather then a truely new game. Obsidian could have done some things to change this by addressing the complaints from the first game. IE: Larger areas, more areas, ect ect ect. The biggest changes in KotOR2 from part 1 came in the party influence area. And while I think they were excelent changes, they were not enough of them to be able to distance themselves from comparison (which was going to happen regardless, but they still could have tried to minimize it more). In the end, I honestly think that the mass majority of complaints come from a comparrison battle that Obsidian cant win at this point in time. The game had a few bugs sure (I myself encountered less bugs in part 2 then I did in part 1, neither game had game stopping bugs though) but those bugs were greatly exagerated and used to exploit weaknesses not really there. The biggest draw back to KotOR2 (and the one that hurt them the most (of things they COULD have controled)) was the ending. It was a poor ending no matter how you look at it. People make assumptions it was LA rushing them (and it could very well have been but none of us know for sure) and all that, but in the end, Obsidian needed to have a far better ending to the game. Same ggoes for the cut content, it needed to be in game. These are things that were in Obsidians control and should have been dealt with. In closing, I hope Obsidian is doing part 3, partly because I loved part 2 even more then part 1 (which is saying alot because I loved part 1 as well) but if its yet anouther new developer, the poor folks of who ever will not stand a chance in hell. No matter what quality the product is. Anyways, thats my take on it Im sure more then a few wilkl object to what I just posted but there nothing what so ever I can do about that other then to say prove me wrong by actions rather then words. Right now the actions (IE: complaints and stuff) say otherwise. PS: Question Grunker (not meant as a flame). You state your a role player. Im seeing this statement more and more on the web now aday for single player games. What exactly do you do in game that makes you a roleplayer? See in a MMORPG roleplayers play a role and interact with others incharacter. In P&P you play a role and interact with other people incharacter. In a single player RPG you DONT interact (which is the fundemental aspect of roleplaying) with other players because, well your alone! Hense why its called a single player game. Sure you play a role, every single person that plays the game does, with in the paramenters of the game design. But to hear folks now adays, you dont consider every single person that plays game to be a roleplayer. So my question is, what exactly do you do that makes you a role player rather then a player like everyone else in a single player game? As I said, this not meant as a flame, im seriously wondering how you get the distinction. Im an old MMORPG Role Player (back in oNWN on AOL in 1990). There I role played a drow by learning to speak the special language, writting stories, and trying to stay incharacter during impromptu conversations and situations while ingame. I played the role and interacted with others. So as a true Role Player from many years ago, the obviously new classification confuses me and Im just looking for someone to explain it to me please. Thanks

I have not yet played FO or PST although I now own the games and hope to be playing them sometime this year. I am currently going through BG1, though. And, if there is NPC (party member) influence there, I must have missed it. It is certainly not an essential part of the game. I have logged many hours with Morrowind. Morrowind has influence...you can flatter, bribe, etc and you actually get to see the influence rating you have with that NPC right on the screen! No, we are talking about apples and oranges here. To have influence so intricately and yet subtely woven into the actual dialogue tree was an ambitious undertaking. This was something that, had they gotten it right, would have turned the cRPG upside down. They didn't quite get it but they came close. I sure hope that whoever does K3 perfects it. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Plano's right here Volo. I know we go back and forth on alot of issues but JE influence isnt anywhere close to KotOR series (1 or 2) influence. Influence in JE is romance and evil game (trying to lessen the amount of party PCs that turn on you for binding Deaths Hand. However, you dont need to influence them in any way to get their back stories. While other games might have some influence, its not as required a conponent as found in KotOR 1 or 2. I wish it was but it wasnt. For all characters not involved in romance line, all you needed to do was talk to them alot. Your action or how much you adventured with them didnt play apart in those talks.

Hod do you know Volo's female ? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I dont honestly. Her posts just have some general female tendancies to them (as Volo and I post back and forth at each other a fair amount Ive noticed it over time) and well, she has never complained about being refered to as her (which more then myself have assumed in the past). So just going on educated assumption is all. So its her because either its correct or Volo doesnt mind the assumption and has let it continue of her/his own accord. Besides, him or her, its not a negative comment in any way. My question to you, why does it matter?

LOL, Bastila has nothing what so ever when compared to Visas tho!

repetative killing of creatures for the simple sack of killing them with no reasoning involved. All MMORPGs have grinding to a degree, but SWG pushs it well over the levels of what even I can tolerate (and im known for tolerating grinding in most of its forms).

Combat redesign system (from what I hear as I quit SWG while ago) is a little better but still doesnt fix or even adress some of the major flaws in design regarding the game. The new Force Sencitive system is better then the old holocron system but its still dedicated on senceless mind numbing grinding. The biggest failure of SWG (and remains so to this day) is the lack of quests and story inside the game. It truely is UO in space. PPS: The link Baley gave you is from AFTER the jedi system was revamped but before the combat revamp. So it addresses the issues regarding how current jedi system works and runs. All they did in combat revamp really was eliminate the 3 bar system and create the standard health bar system. They didnt actually fix or change the game beyond damage style you take and damage style you give. All the grinding, all the exploits, all the bugs, all the lack of storyline, all the lack of quests, all the all still exists.

I think Vrook killed Master Vandar in his sleep and then just blamed what happened at Katar as an excuse! hehe Vrook is a sith! See more proof!

Absolutely true, the planets would be traveled much faster! But that was sort of my thought. I was considering swoops only if the area restrictions were to be removed, wich I truely think will happen, as an alterate means of travel. It's just not very up-to-date to have those kinds of restrictet areas in a RPG thes days. And on an other thought I really don't think it would be a question of age, I mean I wasn't talking about turnig the game into an Action Adventure of any kind. Swoop bikes would just make an interesting side aspect, that's all! But in the end if the story holds up to the previous standard I could do with out that gimmik any day. By the way, even though I'm probably not one of the older players, I would consider myself (27) out of the action driven age. I basicaly only play non-action RPGs, but still a little action now and then will hopefully keep artheritis out of my joints for a few more years! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> heheh Saber, by older I meant SWG players that started SWG when game hit retail. Swoop bikes were added 1 year after SWG was in retail in that game. So for the first year players had to rely on stationary shuttles or walking. Many of those players complained after swoops were introduced as suddenly crossing a world took 10 minutes rather then the previous 50-60 minutes (if walking), making the the worlds seem alot smaller then they were entended as. Also planitary shuttles (from city to city on same planet) became rarely used (which since SWG is a MMORPG meant citys also became ghost towns, a place to throw up a house and leave). Swoops really effected the ambeaunce (sp?) of the game negatively. Wasnt a reference to player age I thought your post was very well written and showed a maturity that some players lack online (regardless if they are 15 or 80 years old in real world).

Kalfear, I agree that having Swoop Bike travel on some planets but not others could adversely affect the overall "feel" of the worlds that do not have it. However, I think there are other things that could be done to compensate. For instance, you could have some worlds that have a land speeder shuttle service--kind of like the Stilt Strider in Morrowind. You don't actually watch the travel, the screen fades out and you are already at the other city, etc. That sort of thing could be used on the worlds that don't have bike quests. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oh that would be fine, but I got the impression for other post that the poster wanted a speeder to ride in around the lands. Im fine with quick travel (return to Ebon Hawk, build the speeder in nar shaddar, module transporters in Taris, ect) but actually getting into a speeder and controling it as you zone around is detremental to feel of game is all im saying

You just can't conceed anything here, can you? You are one of the only non-munchkin gamers here who does not think K2 is better had it not been rushed or, at the very least, had a modicum of QA. No, his ideas do not suggest he is drunk. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Psst Plano, just tell her KotOR2 was a more mature story! Works every time *grins*

LOL MT, Sorry, her roleplayer comment and my reply was just quick joking jabs at each other based off a thread on bioware boards. (a poster (on bioware boards) posted that I was a powergamer and he was a true roleplayer because he took over 40 hours to complete JE where as I came in at the low end of the normal time spectrum for players at 20 hours. My reply was, "a true roleplayer? ummmm you do know this is a single player game, you CANT actually hold a conversation with Dawn Star.") Inside joke is all, dont take what either of us said regarding Roleplaying serious

Nope they dont It just goes to show more that contrary to some folks desire, Revan was male LS in original story, and then story was adjusted to allow DS and female revans.

I never thought it was that simple! Thank you very much. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> careful, she has a temper and is easily jealous

I always saw it as the more powerful you become in the dark side, the larger price you pay in appearence. In Star Wars (original movies) Palpatine and Vader both were disfigured from the darkside. Sure Vader had many mechanical parts but he was still disfigured as well. I personally LOVE Biowares and Obsidians good and evil looks. One of my favorite aspects of the KotOR series. I was disappoint that JE didnt have something similar in their game concidering the lotus assassins were disfigured like Darkside PCs from KotOR1 and 2. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You seriously like those? I can't even stand even looking at them! Ugh. I like the reskins a guy made for the hispanic heads, their DS heads beat everything else in the game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> yuppers I did, I thought it added flavor to the game I mean it wasnt awsome to look at or anything but if fit the mood of the game you were playing so well.

Aye, I was very impressed when I got coin and spirit gems for destroying vases and headstones! and lets not forget health power ups from kicking lapdogs in JE! Wait, are you saying haveing the choice of picking where you go is important? but Im confused, you have no choice in JE, you got from 2 rivers to tiems to imperial city to palace to dirge to palace (with a quick stop at Lord Laos furnace) every time! You cant sway from that route what so ever! So that limits player freedom by your own words doesnt it? *grins* Maybe, but KotOR2 is still a more mature story! dont worry, we wont hold it against you that your not a REAL roleplayer. at least your not trying to have real conversations with Dawn like Blackfriar is from Bioware boards!

I always saw it as the more powerful you become in the dark side, the larger price you pay in appearence. In Star Wars (original movies) Palpatine and Vader both were disfigured from the darkside. Sure Vader had many mechanical parts but he was still disfigured as well. I personally LOVE Biowares and Obsidians good and evil looks. One of my favorite aspects of the KotOR series. I was disappoint that JE didnt have something similar in their game concidering the lotus assassins were disfigured like Darkside PCs from KotOR1 and 2.

I like Jotabe's idea But "IF they had to make official versions. The storyline dictates clearly (based on the continuity and flow of story lines) both Revan and Exile would be LS Male.

Just a quick reply to sabre regarding riding swoops over land. It might sound cool but it really hurts a game. Many older players of SWG feel that game really deminished with the introduction of swoop bikes (even though they cheered when it was added thinking it a great idea) because the actual effect on game was it made the planets seem 1/100 the size of what they use to be. With KotOR games having such small areas to begin with, this would really hurt its over all feel and atmosphere.

First off, thanks to all for keeping this post in the vein it was meant ( a mature discussion, not a free for all kiddy thing). Actually I kinda got my answer to my question in Jade Empire to be honest. With bioware adding mf, mff, ff, and mf romances along with the kissing cinematic cut screen, it seems the industry is in fact starting to push the envolope now to see what and how far they can go (or get a way with). I obviously dont expect it to come from a Star wars product but I wouldnt be to to surprised to see nudity or profanity (actually isnt there already profanity in Grand Theft Auto game????? (I never played it but swear I read there was somewhere) in RPGs in the near future. I just hope companies use their heads with content like that if they add it. Allow us to filter nudity and profanity out if we so choose and not force alternative life styles on people or in game (leave it as an option, if you want it you can open it, other wise you never run across it). Again, thanks to posters for posting responcibly on this topic. I was very hesitant to create it because it could so easily get outta control and abbused. Very happy that my fears were not made real

Oh, no, I wasn't implying that they would be party members again. Not at all. I don't expect--or even want--any of the old NPC characters to be playable. I was just saying that those particular characters have an ongoing part in the story. Through video sequences, they can show what's going on in other parts of the galaxy, which will help the conclusion all come together. I agree with you on the scripting. My Exile and Revan are always LS males. But others' mileage varies, which is a game convention that probably will be upheld. . <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL, oh okies. For some reason I read it as you saying needed characters would include T3, HK, Canderous, Bastila, and Carth. I just couldnt figure out the "why" part of the statement

He is an admiral in the Republic Fleet. If a defense needs to be mounted on Revan's return, as was implied by Canderous, someone in charge needs to coordinate it on the Republic's end. Candy, of course, was told to gather the clans and wait. There's only one reason Revan would need every Mandalorian Canderous could lay hands on... whatever Revan's plan was, he/she and Exile quite possibly will be chased back by some pretty po'd Sith folks. T3 and HK are fixtures. I somewhat agree with regard to Bastila (if Revan was female), but we don't really know what she's been doing in the meantime. Her appearance in K2 kept her in the picture, at any rate, and I'd expect at least a brief cameo if Revan was male. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So, you have a quick cameo of him and thats that. Still doesnt warrant Carth as a party npc if only selected old npcs used. T3 needed as hes the only one that actually know where Revan is if you follow part 2 story. HK needed as the HK factory was left out of part 2 so that loose end needs to be tied up. Canderous needed because Mandalorians are still to play their part in this story. Beyond that, none of the KotOR1 or 2 party members truely needed. They have played their parts so to speak, give them breif cameos and thats it. *for the record though, I want to be able to make my party from a selection of ALL previous party npcs. I understand Carth is a favorite of many (not mine, way to freaking whinny) but being a favorite is not reason enough to include if just including those that are still apart of the ongoing story.* Carths part has come and gone. More so then actually a number of other characters from part 1 or 2. Carths part was tied up nicely and completely. Hes one of the few that actually DOES have finality in his storyline. PPS: KotOR 1 and 2, unlike JE, were written with Revan and Exile as male characters. Both Bioware and Obsidian obvious drew up the story with male heros then added the female aspects later. Hense why key things dont flow as smoothly when playing a female (IE: the love story with Bastila which was paramount for the story. Adding in the Carth love story was a nice touch but didnt read or play out anywhere as completely). While Bioware did ALOT better job on JE in regards to not making it obvious what sex/alignment the PC was meant as (I honestly cant tell and have played it completely 5 times now as both male and female, OP and CF), KotOR series doesnt have that luxery, so for story continuity, expect part 3 to be written as a male lightside lead once again. Of course it will have the lightside/darkside, male/female option, but lets not kid ourselves what the real story of the franchise was and is. People can debate as much they want, the truth of the matter lays in the scripting, and sorry but that parts obvious.