Wizards...butchered.

[Archaven]

not only wizard. i feel it's almost all druid, cipher and priest. deadfire is supposingly to be the successor to pillars 1. i'm feeling that the game gimped at this moment with poor choices for each level up. multiclass supposingly should be more fun compared to singleclass options that was available in pillars 1.

 

by going multiclassing/subclassing the choices are even more severely limited. it's such a shame. due to this, i'm feeling first pillars are more fun and more superior than deadfire.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Archaven

[tazntaylr]

not only wizard. i feel it's almost all druid, cipher and priest. deadfire is supposingly to be the successor to pillars 1. i'm feeling that the game gimped at this moment with poor choices for each level up. multiclass supposingly should be more fun compared to singleclass options that was available in pillars 1.

 

by going multiclassing/subclassing the choices are even more severely limited. it's such a shame. due to this, i'm feeling first pillars are more fun and more superior than deadfire.

 

Agree. I wish for the POE1 mechanics on most characters.

[Ryz009]

 

 

Meanwhile, you could just be using a ranged physical multiclass and contributing 10x more to any given fight.  But yeah, sure, those are some of the creamiest Wizard spells on the low tier crap pile.  I also mentioned number of casts, which are not enough.  You aren't going to be doing much of anything with 1-2 missiles, or 1 Eldritch Aim + 1 other tier 1 spell and 2x tier 2 spells.  Really, the only low level spell that's worth casting early is Chill Fog.  Missle is fine later when you have more casts, or you simply can't reliably cast Chill Fog.  Anything else is really wasting limited casts.

 

 

T1 has chill fog and Slicken.

T2 is bleh and I barely use it.

T3 has Fireball for easy AoE comp which is the most effective one atm. Later, use it for Del Alacrity because the +5 dex speed still speed up how fast you cast/recover and it doesn't take long.

 

====

 

T4 has frozen fireball from a certain grimoire you can acquire really early. Sure the cast time is long but you can retarget and it has almost twice the range of normal fireball. Paralysis on hit. The moment I got this, the game lost all possible mid-game challenge even if you are undergear.

T5 is mediocre. Only really use it for Blast of Frost for quick AoE finisher if they somehow survive the fireball.

T6 has Gaze and Deathring. Death ring is insane in this one because it's a giant Foe AoE that can also finish off high DR but low health target with no effort.

T7 has Tayn Chaotic orb and with enemies using Unbending, Wall of Draining

T8 has Wilting Wind. It's a raw damage version of hailstorm which is also busted.

T9 has Missile Salvo and Meteor.

 

I don't see how they are weak. Only T2 is really bad but you get through that really fast since the game quickly boost you to like level 7 in only a few hour. Salvo has the highest DPS potential in the game that it took 70% of the tankiest boss fight health in one spell on Aloth who has pisspoor might.

 

And if you don't have enough cast, then empower yourself for +1 to all tier casting resource. Nothing should survive you throwing 1 or 2 fireball in the early game so wizard early is nowhere near that bad.

 

Edit: Also, if you really want to break the game, just give the Wizard some kind of legendary gear early (you cna easily grab a legendary weapon from Crookspur stealing). This gives them a major accuracy boost to their spells. You can be throwing empowered crit fireball 2-3 hours into the game.

 

 

WW should be tier 8. That should only be for pure wizards.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Ryz009

[evilcat]

Overall system is good. And wizard even if butchered they are still kicking (overall worth party slot alot).

Grimoires switching is good class ability. There could be limitation if some grimoires themes does not exists (there are some like Spark and Fire).

Druids also are fine, since even if you run out spells you could turn into beast.

Priest got shortest stick.

Holy Radiance is meh.

 

Solution: Each deity gives buff to Holy Radiance, like Magran deals even more fire dmg  to enemies, and inspire might to allies. But Wael gives insight to allies but confuses enemies. Stuff like that.

Edited May 15, 2018 by evilcat

[Witness41920]

I keep seeing people suggesting that fine weapons and legendary weapons add to the accuracy of the Wizard's spells but in my testing this doesn't appear to be true. 

 

Am I missing something? 

[Zeitzbach]

I keep seeing people suggesting that fine weapons and legendary weapons add to the accuracy of the Wizard's spells but in my testing this doesn't appear to be true. 

 

Am I missing something? 

 

I decided to test again and turns out it doesn't work so I will admit my mistake on that one. Now I need to figure out what was the cause of the increased accuracy and I don't think it was Xoti devotion buff. Could be the paladin aura because the bump is very small and I was walking around which resulted in the aura going on and off without me noticing. I just happen to changing weapon right at the wrong time and was overjoy to think that weapon actually matters to spell accuracy now.

[Witness41920]

 

I keep seeing people suggesting that fine weapons and legendary weapons add to the accuracy of the Wizard's spells but in my testing this doesn't appear to be true. 

 

Am I missing something?

 

I decided to test again and turns out it doesn't work so I will admit my mistake on that one. Now I need to figure out what was the cause of the increased accuracy and I don't think it was Xoti devotion buff. Could be the paladin aura because the bump is very small and I was walking around which resulted in the aura going on and off without me noticing. I just happen to changing weapon right at the wrong time and was overjoy to think that weapon actually matters to spell accuracy now.

 

Thanks for the clarification but I wasn't trying to single you out for a mistake or anything, I've seen it suggested several times in several places by several people and thought maybe I was the one missing something.

 

Sad to see I was right, actually...that accuracy boost would be nice.

[Zeitzbach]

 

 

I keep seeing people suggesting that fine weapons and legendary weapons add to the accuracy of the Wizard's spells but in my testing this doesn't appear to be true. 

 

Am I missing something?

 

I decided to test again and turns out it doesn't work so I will admit my mistake on that one. Now I need to figure out what was the cause of the increased accuracy and I don't think it was Xoti devotion buff. Could be the paladin aura because the bump is very small and I was walking around which resulted in the aura going on and off without me noticing. I just happen to changing weapon right at the wrong time and was overjoy to think that weapon actually matters to spell accuracy now.

 

Thanks for the clarification but I wasn't trying to single you out for a mistake or anything, I've seen it suggested several times in several places by several people and thought maybe I was the one missing something.

 

Sad to see I was right, actually...that accuracy boost would be nice.

 

 

The magic accuracy is still busted anyway because your level go up to 20. Empower trait allow you to get +20 on them as well so most empowered spells can easily be casted at 110-130 accuracy depending on how many buffs you have. There really isn't that many enemies that can self-boost their defense to be able to dodge everything. The only worry are mages that can have high deflection but then they die to every fortitude and reflex-based spell.

 

The multi-target type really should be mentioned more often. There are tons of enemeis with high deflection (fighter and steel sentinel). Spells like deathring and fireball ends up being really strong while the physical-based struggle to land a hit.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Sanctuary]

 

 

 

Thanks, but I don't know why you decided to list all of the spell tiers, when my first post was talking about how Wizards in general are one of the worst classes up until level 7.  Then they start becoming tied with single class Rangers.  Only mid, to mid-late do they start to pull their own weight and then later screen wipe kings, (which isn't really a big deal with so many other screen wipes from other classes).  The transition from zero to hero is not a smooth one at all in this game.  Offensive casters generally start out weaker in these types of games and then become stronger late game, but it's really exaggerated here.

 

I already covered empower too...

 

 

WIth Blessings of Bereth you can start with main char wizard at level 4, extra gold,+2 all stats and vendor that sells gloves with +2 power level to evocation spells in Port Maje. Mix that with Infuse with Vital Essence Nature Godlike for another +2 power levels and you are probably highest damage dealer at level 4. Chillfog ticking for 37 damage in big aoe that also blinds? I would understand if you called that imbalanced but weak or worst? Nah, you just haven't found enough game breaking **** that make wizard strong. I just hinted you one above. I'm sure there are more.

 

 

So now those blessings, and race are exclusive to the Wizard?  Also, not only have I already mentioned empower, I mentioned Chill Fog.  Twice now, and you can't use it every fight.  Not every enemy is going to bunch up and stand perfectly still for you, especially early on when you're using a tank that can only hold three enemies at most.  Ranged enemies generally don't bunch up with melee either, so you're either hitting melee, or you're hitting ranged, but not both.  It also makes using any class that has a flanking bonus way more obnoxious to micromanage than they need to be if the blind gets resisted, because either they won't be getting their damage bonus, or you risk blinding/damaging them as well.

 

Are you telling me that for every fight, if there's any kind of corner or choke point, you try to draw the attention of ALL of the enemies, and then run them all the way back to that point (if they all happen to aggro, since often when you do that half of them don't move) just to make good use of Chill Fog (and then later Fireball)?  If so, you're going out of your way to set up a scenario that puts the Wizard in a way better light than what actually shines on them right now.  For the time it takes to do that, you could have already killed at least half of the enemies or more through other means.  Things start looking different if you're talking about stacking multiple Wizards, but the same is true for a few other classes too, especially stuff like a Black Jacket/Ascendant or Devoted/Soul Blade, or how about 2x - 3x Barbarians?

 

BTW, those gloves don't affect all spells, only Evocations.  Chill Fog is a Transmutation.  The gloves slightly boost the damage output early on with Fan of Flames (should you bother using it) and Missile, but inconsequentially so.  The best thing about them is the accuracy boost.

 

Edit: Is the difficulty level of the game even being considered here?  Despite it still not being very challenging, enemy health pools scale up a little more on Veteran and then PotD don't they?

Edited May 15, 2018 by Sanctuary

[Kiroen]

I think the problem isn't that the wizards have been nerfed - but that they were OP in PoE 1.

 

PoE 1 Wizard had an exceptional weapon at level 1, +50% attack speed at level 5 , an fast AoE Paralyze with damage at level 9, and so on. In the late game, with a little of help from the priest, the wizard was this. It's sucked for me because I 100%ed PoE 1 with a wizard and the nerf-hammer has hit me hard when I wanted to continue playing with him in Deadfire, but it was something that had to be done.

 

This doesn't mean that the wizard is fine as it is at this moment: it has some useless spells ( Eldritch Aim anyone? ), undertoned ones (it's becoming harder and harder for me to justify summonning a weapon, and lacking in passives (though this could be just me).

 

But it doesn't mean either that it is weak: it's hard and requires a lot of knowledge about what you're doing, but there aren't many classes able to deal almost any type of damage (fire, corrode, slash, freeze, crush, pierce - you name it, and the wizard has something for you), which is important given the DR rework, to target any type of defense, and to cast 5 buffs on themselves in 2 seconds. While other classes excel at a given mechanic, wizards are the jacks of all trades.

[evilcat]

What could help with Wizard/Priest/Druid at early levels is if EO moves some neutral passives to lv 1.

Stuff like defenses, toughtness, weapon dmg, elemental penetration, some fast casting, summoning, fast weapon, etc.

That way You still can cast like 4 spells total, but then you run out of it,  can switch to swinging weapon and it works just fine.

It could also be good for other classes which have 3 class abilities at level 1 and choose 2 (so much choice).

Edited May 15, 2018 by evilcat

[LordBlade]

You know, on the other hand it finally makes sense to even have the possibility of swapping Grimoires - something I never ever did in PoE.

I did it in the first game. Aloth had two grimoires with him. One that was all offensive spells, while the other had buffs.

Admittedly, the game was pretty easy just focusing on offense, but I had the option to switching to buffs, tossing a few out, and then switching back. Which was nice.

 

This new system is just garbage though. Basically, pick the handful of spells you will use all game and that's it. Forget everything else.

[Zeitzbach]

I think the problem isn't that the wizards have been nerfed - but that they were OP in PoE 1.

 

PoE 1 Wizard had an exceptional weapon at level 1, +50% attack speed at level 5 , an fast AoE Paralyze with damage at level 9, and so on. In the late game, with a little of help from the priest, the wizard was this. It's sucked for me because I 100%ed PoE 1 with a wizard and the nerf-hammer has hit me hard when I wanted to continue playing with him in Deadfire, but it was something that had to be done.

 

This doesn't mean that the wizard is fine as it is at this moment: it has some useless spells ( Eldritch Aim anyone? ), undertoned ones (it's becoming harder and harder for me to justify summonning a weapon, and lacking in passives (though this could be just me).

 

But it doesn't mean either that it is weak: it's hard and requires a lot of knowledge about what you're doing, but there aren't many classes able to deal almost any type of damage (fire, corrode, slash, freeze, crush, pierce - you name it, and the wizard has something for you), which is important given the DR rework, to target any type of defense, and to cast 5 buffs on themselves in 2 seconds. While other classes excel at a given mechanic, wizards are the jacks of all trades.

 

The wizard of PoE 1 didn't even feel like a real wizard. If anything, they really were more of a battlemage because what I did to get through PotD was using Dex -> Spear -> The super buff that silence your wizard and it works against every possible content.

 

I think people that feel wizards are gutted are just used to playing their wizard like that with a few CC in some fights from PoE 1 until they unlock all of those. I think Wall of Color was the only CC spell I ever bother to use just to trivialize boss fifhts.

 

In PoE 2,

 

The conjuration type got gutted and I agree that they should get something like a +50% cast time buff.

 

The evocation type is op.

 

Some of the wizards players are likely still figuring out what spell to use and wasting their points when they could be grabbing talents like concentration while also saying how spells like Del speed buff is useless because it's no longer +50% action speed despite it still being an instant cast buff that give the wizard roughly 10% faster cast speed and recovery. If anything, Wizard has way too many high scaling damage spells that be toned down when they buff the weaker non-damage spells.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Zeitzbach

[Starwars]

I think what the Wizards mostly have lost is that special sense of saving up spells due to per-rest mechanics and then just unleashing hell in that one particularly tough combat encounter. Some of that flavour is just lost now that you can unleash everything you got in each combat encounter.

 

They are definitely not weak at all. And in fact, with some of the higher level spells, you can absolutely cheese a lot of the higher level encounters with a wizard. Which... would not have been a sane option if it had been per-rest system since you would have to go back to town constantly if you did it that way (on higher difficulty levels with limited camping supplies at least). But alas... guess that's me whining about the per-encounter vs per-rest stuff again.

 

But yeah, I'm finding Wizard to be one of the stronger classes actually.

[Arnegar]

Evoker is solid for pure damage, but then you're not really getting a traditional wizard, you're just getting a damage dealer. I mean, you can still cast some of the other spell schools, but it just feels weird to use them with penalties. As such, evoker is just a DPS character. If you get the +10 fire accuracy ring, it's definitely legit DPS. If you go nature godlike, it's insane how much damage a spell can do. I've had Fan of Flames crit for like 150 when my wizard was level three. In one of my parties, the evoker has twice as much damage done as the ranger even though I'm often lazy with him and just shoot my rod in easier fights. It's also one of the few classes that feels like it's truly worth single-classing.

 

Chill Fog is such a broken spell that it's difficult to justify a wizard that can't cast it, but once you get up in levels a bit, you really start to appreciate the extreme AoE burst of the evoker. With the nature godlike bonus, the amulet that gives a power level buff once per rest and an empowered spell, you can clear a while pack of enemies in one cast if you don't get grazes. That's really valuable and I don't think any other class gets that kind of AoE damage.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Arnegar

[Zeitzbach]

Evoker is solid for pure damage, but then you're not really getting a traditional wizard, you're just getting a damage dealer. I mean, you can still cast some of the other spell schools, but it just feels weird to use them with penalties. As such, evoker is just a DPS character. If you get the +10 fire accuracy ring, it's definitely legit DPS. In one of my parties, the evoker has twice as much damage done as the ranger even though I'm often lazy with him and just shoot my rod in easier fights.

 

The CC are still good, like Chill fog, Wall of Color and Slicken. The problem is that right now, damage bonus is way too easy to get that it's better to kill something in 1-2 hits than to CC em.

 

The Empowered Mechanic itself is a major boon to this. Empowered stuff get almost twice the damage. Utility stuff? A few more seconds. Who care about a prone hitting when I can be doubling my Death Ring damage.

[Phyriel]

 

 

 

 

Thanks, but I don't know why you decided to list all of the spell tiers, when my first post was talking about how Wizards in general are one of the worst classes up until level 7.  Then they start becoming tied with single class Rangers.  Only mid, to mid-late do they start to pull their own weight and then later screen wipe kings, (which isn't really a big deal with so many other screen wipes from other classes).  The transition from zero to hero is not a smooth one at all in this game.  Offensive casters generally start out weaker in these types of games and then become stronger late game, but it's really exaggerated here.

 

I already covered empower too...

 

 

WIth Blessings of Bereth you can start with main char wizard at level 4, extra gold,+2 all stats and vendor that sells gloves with +2 power level to evocation spells in Port Maje. Mix that with Infuse with Vital Essence Nature Godlike for another +2 power levels and you are probably highest damage dealer at level 4. Chillfog ticking for 37 damage in big aoe that also blinds? I would understand if you called that imbalanced but weak or worst? Nah, you just haven't found enough game breaking **** that make wizard strong. I just hinted you one above. I'm sure there are more.

 

 

So now those blessings, and race are exclusive to the Wizard?  Also, not only have I already mentioned empower, I mentioned Chill Fog.  Twice now, and you can't use it every fight.  Not every enemy is going to bunch up and stand perfectly still for you, especially early on when you're using a tank that can only hold three enemies at most.  Ranged enemies generally don't bunch up with melee either, so you're either hitting melee, or you're hitting ranged, but not both.  It also makes using any class that has a flanking bonus way more obnoxious to micromanage than they need to be if the blind gets resisted, because either they won't be getting their damage bonus, or you risk blinding/damaging them as well.

 

Are you telling me that for every fight, if there's any kind of corner or choke point, you try to draw the attention of ALL of the enemies, and then run them all the way back to that point (if they all happen to aggro, since often when you do that half of them don't move) just to make good use of Chill Fog (and then later Fireball)?  If so, you're going out of your way to set up a scenario that puts the Wizard in a way better light than what actually shines on them right now.  For the time it takes to do that, you could have already killed at least half of the enemies or more through other means.  Things start looking different if you're talking about stacking multiple Wizards, but the same is true for a few other classes too, especially stuff like a Black Jacket/Ascendant or Devoted/Soul Blade, or how about 2x - 3x Barbarians?

 

BTW, those gloves don't affect all spells, only Evocations.  Chill Fog is a Transmutation.  The gloves slightly boost the damage output early on with Fan of Flames (should you bother using it) and Missile, but inconsequentially so.  The best thing about them is the accuracy boost.

 

Edit: Is the difficulty level of the game even being considered here?  Despite it still not being very challenging, enemy health pools scale up a little more on Veteran and then PotD don't they?

 

 

I'm playing solo so I'm not having muchos problemos with wizard friendly fire. You points are valid but they state only that wizards don't work as good in melee centric comps so its more composition related issue than wizard itself. Anyway I don't dig your argument about how bad it for wizard vs other means because he's not equally autopilot class and can't just derp in half of his arsenal like other classes. I'm roleplaying this game to a bigger degree I suppose so I don't mind doing clever even if time consuming things while playing a wizard to make him shine. About your issue with mobs placement, go and experiment with Pull of Eora, its insane in deadfire. 

 

I'm not saying those gloves are best item but they truly made my early game a breeze paired with nature godlike, I just put Infuse with Vital Essence, drop Ray of Fire on some stationary target (archer, caster), kite a bit back and drop chillfog between him and me so melees get blinded and get damage by both chillfog and ray, it sounds complicated by seriously the damage with 4 more power levels early on just makes things die super fast. 

 

Later once you get to Nekataka you can steal/buy grimoire of vaporous wizardry that give damage from spells an interrupt effect and it also gives you more spell uses per encounter. At level 10 now I can use 3x (level 1 -4) 2x (level 5) and got 3 empowers, you can easily abuse Withdraw scrolls to reset many encounters if you run out of juice but I haven't so far. 

 

I honestly don't know how can you say wizards are bad, maybe they don't fit your playstyle cause you like to autopilot on AI more or they just don't compliment your party composition and that would be fair to say but to say they are bad, I respectfully disagree on that bit. Even if you want more autopilot wizard you can build one that is focused on quick cast no recovery selfbuffs that buff up in blink of an eye with veil + infuse + spell reflect and then cast citzal lance + martial power and go ham in melee alongside with your regular barbarians, devoted cleavers etc

Edited May 16, 2018 by Phyriel

[Ryz009]

as someone playing with 2 wizards in the party. The friendly fire is really easily worked around if you have enough int. The yellow border can be quite generous and I usually position my tanks right on the edge while I can still nuke without a care.

 

(later levels I stop caring because the tanks shrug it off but that always happens).

[Maxzero]

Don't forget you buy (steal) a grimoire that gives +1 spell casts per level in Neketaka. There is also a +1 level 1 cast inn bonus too.

 

By level 7 you can have 4 level 1 casts, 3 level 2 and 2 level 3.

 

Way more firepower the you had in PoE1 at the same level plus you can Empower to get more casts.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Maxzero

[Dongom]

Rogue, Priest, Druid are far worse off.

 

Wizard is one of the strongest classes in the game. If not strongest next to Chanter's broken spells. But like any CPRG Wizard class, they are just kind of meh at the starting levels. By level 10 he should be among your top dmg and nigh unkillable. By 19 he should be all you even need 1 shotting the screen.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Dongom

[master guardian]

Im getting it the other way around

 

My wizards are doing the butchering not being butchered

[lersayil]

Don't forget you buy (steal) a grimoire that gives +1 spell casts per level in Neketaka. There is also a +1 level 1 cast inn bonus too.

 

By level 7 you can have 4 level 1 casts, 3 level 2 and 2 level 3.

 

Way more firepower the you had in PoE1 at the same level plus you can Empower to get more casts.

 

To be fair that book has a negative on it, if i recall correctly. Every damage you eat interrupts spellcasting, so you better buff that wizard well or keep him out of harms way.

[klajton]

Don't forget you buy (steal) a grimoire that gives +1 spell casts per level in Neketaka. There is also a +1 level 1 cast inn bonus too.

 

By level 7 you can have 4 level 1 casts, 3 level 2 and 2 level 3.

 

Way more firepower the you had in PoE1 at the same level plus you can Empower to get more casts.

 

Where do you find this inn (with +1 bonus)?

[Phyriel]

 

Don't forget you buy (steal) a grimoire that gives +1 spell casts per level in Neketaka. There is also a +1 level 1 cast inn bonus too.

 

By level 7 you can have 4 level 1 casts, 3 level 2 and 2 level 3.

 

Way more firepower the you had in PoE1 at the same level plus you can Empower to get more casts.

 

To be fair that book has a negative on it, if i recall correctly. Every damage you eat interrupts spellcasting, so you better buff that wizard well or keep him out of harms way.

 

 

Oh that explains a lot;) I thought that it adds interrupt to your damage, but you are right, since I started using that book I was getting interrupted much more, I thought its just regular interrupt that you get occasionally from enemy attacks but I guess i'll be getting rid of that book for now then:P

[Ninjamestari]

The same thing could be pretty much said about Priests. Spellcasting in general is one of the worst blunders of this game.