Maxzero

That's kinda awful actually. Thanks for finding out.

So Sorceror (Druid/Wizard) would be far better off throwing Bombs in difficult fights then using their spells because there explosive skill would be sky high? Druid +2 Wizard +2 Blessing +2 Scientist background +1 Multiclass -1 Nature Godlike bonus? +1 Starting explosive skill = 6+1 by level 3 you can have 8+1 explosives and +50% damage to Cinder Bombs/Grenades. Cast Chillfog then throw a Grenade at them.

Not attack spells. At the moment Wizard is used for: A) self buff armour/def spells and then melee B) Chillfog on target so you can then melee People laugh at the idea of a Sorceror and I don't blame them. Look at the screen shots above at the big Ogre's defences. Targetting Will or Fort is going to much harder then just meleeing it to death.

Well look at Wizard, Cipher, Priest and Druid now. Thats exactly what we are going to get. The only spells that get used are support spells.

I'm not looking down on noobs I am saying don't balance PotD difficulty (which noobs don't play) around them. At the moment the balance in this game is a complete joke. Almost every single build is basically a auto attack base which may or may not have some magical support. Only two builds attack attack through spells: Chanters and Ciphers. Even then its only indirectly. Guess what people are calling nerfs for? Chanters and Ciphers. So all we end up with is 10000 Barb/Monk/Pal clone builds that just auto attack. Man that sounds so exciting.

"We" don't balance anything. Obsidian does. And they would be stupid if they didn't balance around new or one-time players because that's the vast majority of their customers. That's not true at all. They have to decide if they go ranged or melee, if they pick a single damage weapon they are screwed against immune foes and if they find an awesome weapon which isn't one they are devoted to they bite themselves. Troubadours just switch the Brisk Recitation modal on or off how they please to get the best out of every situation. Not much - as I said the nerf is to harsh. But it's also nonsense to say that Beckoner is worthless now. By the way the people who nerfed the Beckoner and me (who complains about Troubadour) are not the same persons. Since we are not connected via telepathy there are no common logical thoughts between us. Come on the only place where the difference between Beckoner and Troubadour will be noticed is PotD and noobs are not playing PotD. Again on classic this makes no difference at all. Immunes? Don't make me laugh. Since when has that stopped Devoted? The -10 accuracy only matters at the start (and accurate weapons getting +5 base halves that loss anyway) and you won't find any immunes early on anyway. Devoted for all intents and purposes does not have a downside. That why every man and his dog started with Devoted in 1.0 with no meta knowledge and didn't have a care in the world. Now the meta knowledge is out now anyway (hint go swords) Devoted downside matters even less. Actually the Beckoner is useless for summoning compared to Troubadour. Either way no doubt Obsidian seeing this will nerf Troubadour so it's worse then the Beckoner and then we can all roll melee beatsticks and auto attack our way to victory. I can't wait. There is such a thing as too much balance. It's probably why I am finding the Pathfinder RPG beta character building much more fun and creative at the moment (despite half the content not being implemented yet). The difficulty curve makes much more sense too.

That's one of the worst examples for logic thinking that I ever saw - because there's no logic at all.It's like saying "Because Bill is smarter than his older brother Ted I also have to be smarter than my older brother Pete." By the way: the Devoted gets -10 ACC for non-proficient weapons. That is a significant drawback especially if you have no meta knowledge. The Troubadour has longer linger time than a vanilla chanter and pays +1 for invocations. That would have been balanced (or that is at least an approach to balance, albeit a weak one because the +1 drawback doesn't scale well at higher levels and becomes negligible). But he can also decide to switch to double phrase accumulation speed on top - which makes the +1 invocation cost as counterweight really laughable especially at higher levels where you need more phrases. All in all the flexibility that is provided with the modal which helps you to easily circumvent the disadvantage is what tips off the balance. Also several people noted in beta and after realease that there's zero reason to pick vanilla Chanter over Troubadour. Just because you didn't read or hear about that doesn't mean that this is "suddenly" the case. It was always that case that the Troubadour is overpowered (at least when compared to a vanilla Chanter). And that is not how subclasses are supposed to work. They should be equal in power like Josh planned them to be. So in my opinion: if the Troubadour is a better summoner than the Beckoner AND there is no reason to pick a vanilla Chanter over a Troubadour then the blancing issue lies with the Troubadour, not the Beckoner. And that's logic. Since when are we balancing around noobs? Do you think noobs gives a hoot about phrase modals and such? This stuff only matter in PoTD anyway you can finish normal difficulty by rolling your face on the keyboard. It's not even close to significant drawback. It never comes into place at all. Devoted get +2 Pen and crit damage for free. Troubadour has to give up half his phrases to get the extra invocations. And considering how people carry about the fire lash chant and the healing chant (to the point both got nerfed) that actually is a significant downside that is completely unavoidable (unlike Devoted's). What's logical about overnerfing the Beckoner's summoning ability then comparing it to Troubadour's summoning ability and complaining that Troubadour's summoning is OP because it's now stronger then Beckoners? It's like crushing a Ferrari with a car crusher then complaining how the Civic now looks better.

But it's not a noticible one. Devoted has a penalty to use other weapons but why would it ever? +2 Pen means you pretty much never have to switch. Just pick swords and you will always have a cutting edge weapon and another +2 pen on demand. About as many people pick base Fighter as pick base Chanter/Cipher: none. Where did u get the statistics that how many people use base fighter, how many people use base chanter/cipher? I’m curious about that. It's not stats but logic. If there is no reason to take base Chanter over one of the sub classes what reason is there to take base Fighter over one of it's subclasses? If Troubadour is a problem because it outshines base Chanter then Devoted is also a problem because it outshines it's base class too. A drawback that has no impact is not much of a drawback.

But it's not a noticible one. Devoted has a penalty to use other weapons but why would it ever? +2 Pen means you pretty much never have to switch. Just pick swords and you will always have a cutting edge weapon and another +2 pen on demand. About as many people pick base Fighter as pick base Chanter/Cipher: none.

Considering that the Troubadour wasn't changed in the patch and no one thought he was OP before yet he has become OP post patch is interesting. What drawbacks do Paladin or the Devoted sub classes have? Is there any reason to take a base Cipher over Ascendant? The nerf was bad because it make the Beckoner bad at the very thing it was supposed to be good at. It would be like Devoted getting +2 Penetration with their favoured weapon but also +15% recovery with said weapon (ala Sharpshooter).

But Skeletons who haven't spawned yet (due to phrase cost) don't have any engagement. 24 second 'recharge' and a 8 second or so base duration (times whatever you Int bonus is probably 50%). That's beyond awful.

Work in progress. Makes the early game much harder. Midgame and lategame basically unaffected.

How about they worry about a DoT being overpowered when we actually see a DoT that's overpowered? Because at the moment it's all about direct damage.

This is correct. You can summon a lower PL Summon straight away since initial phrase count equals your highest current Invocation phrase cost so getting Ogre summon would give you four initial phrases so you could summon base Wyrms or Skeletons straight away). Troubadours are great in this situation because they only need 3 seconds to get that extra phrase whereas Beckoners become clunky as hell.

Nature is still okay if you are primarily a caster. Its one of the few ways to boost spells.