[ENDING SPOILERS] The ending of Deadfire and what it means for The Lore

[Shadenuat]

Not complaining but I find it surprising. Either writers became disinterested in their first iteration of the setting with souls and believed they didn't achieve much with it (what was the most memorable things with souls and what did they achieve? killing baron with young lass maybe, dragon twins, what?), or it was always the plan to break the cosmology, or they were searching for some AWESOME TM event to outdo the previous game and create EPIC TM Baldur's Gate feeling and ended up with kinda dumb statue and player having 0 control over main plot.

 

Either way the main plot is probably the least interesting part of Deadfire, even Nemnok is more interesting character than Eothas.

The idea of undefeatable antagonist is quite elegant of course, but the lack of control over story is very un-Obsidianish. Most of their games had player play an interesting or important role in the events somehow. But not in this one. Arguably even Throne of Bhaal (some people hate the writing in this lol epic D&D action comedy) aknowledges better your choices, your companions, love interests etc. and has more endings.

Edited May 23, 2018 by Shadenuat

[Guest Blutwurstritter]

I was also wondering what the point of the main quest was. The watcher achieved nothing in regard to his assignment to stop Eothas from destroying the wheel, i.e. the main quest would have played out the same even if the main character wasn't there. The only parts where he changed something was the interaction and the side picking between the factions, but none of this would have required gods and souls whatsoever. 

[Sarakash]

My personal take on the story: 

• Something clearly existed before the Engwithans, and to speculate according to the timeline our races lived for about 19,000 Years - The Engwithans lived before that and there is no information. Let's assume they had AT LEAST as much so another 19,000 years.

   

  This alone, is enough evidence to me, that there was clearly something before the wheel was created by the Engwithans and it can't be as dramatic as the gods make it out to be, or it's an armageddon scale holy end of the world in hundreds of  thousands of years. @Aramintai   mentioned there were no gods before the Engwithan ones, that is not true. The game only says that the Engwithans were arrogant enough that if they didn't find the gods, then there must be none - that's another take on how arrogant they were.

Now my take on all that is, the Engwithans just simply did not like that life was uncontrolled and caused chaotic civilizations ( As Thaos said also ), they wanted all nations to work together and form a civilized united Eora striving for advancement, and so their plan started - to control life.

 

Without typing too much non-sense:

 

1. The gods are programmed beings - they talk according to what aspects they have been programmed for, such as Rymrgand will always say death is coming and it will take everyone, as that is his being. He is forced to say that bull**** - and through the years of lies and arrogance, they made themselves believe that if the wheel get destroyed, life ends with it aswell. Obviously Berath will say the Wheel is important since it's practically Berath himself, she is a machine, she can't say anything that is against her own nature. ( This was in Pillars 1 I clearly remember being said that the machines are not super AIs and they have programmed personalities. )
2. Eothas realized the lie they have been feeding themselves and decided to end the arrogant rule of the Engwithans as they have made a huge mistake by thinking they can control life and it must end, so that people can realize themselves it is not the way - and from the fear of being destroyed the other gods fell even more into their delusions and told the same to the Watcher.
3. Eothas is the God of Rebirth, which also symbolizes to me more that he is seeking to end the rule of gods so that current Eora can bloom to a new life, without being shackled by the wheel and the gods, so that people can learn that the wheel is not necessary.
4. My final recognition - The ending credits did not mention, not even by 1 word that something chaotic happened after the wheel got destroyed, life did not change by any means, emphasizing to me even more that it was just a final cling to their ''life'' by the Engwithans.

 

The TLDR for me and how I look at this story : It's the story of the final downfall of the Engwithans and the destruction of their legacy on Eora. 

 

I hope the story will get more clear later, for now this is my story.

 

Thats what I figured as well. To eloborate on your first point, the gods in PoE 2 even admit outright that they can´t act against their nature. It´s during the scence where they argue amongst themselves and you confront them about it.

 

They are not all knowing beeings, they are designed as an incarnation of concepts. I d even argue that giving the gods knowledge about how the cycle worked before their inception would be a detriment to function how the Engwithans envisioned them. From how the gods were presented during both games, I am not inclined to take everthing they told me at face value.

 

@Blutwurstritter: While I am agreeing on your point that the player isn´t fully in control, your personal quest for getting your life back is resolved. Eothas restores you in the end and frees you from Berath influence. I understand why people might have a problem with the overall resolution of Eotha´s plot, but I wasn´t concerned by it to much. All in all, I had wished for a more informed decession regarding the consequences of the wheel´s destruction. If its true that dialog was cut, I just hope they add it back in at some point.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Sarakash

[PatrioticChief]

I almost feel like the writers had an idea for a setting and then realized another setting would be better so they set out to create it through POE2. 

[Taevyr]

My take on reincarnation goes like this:

 

imagine the reservoir of souls as a large "lake" of souls, with souls being able to flow to Eora from the lake (rebirth) and from Eora to the lake (death). The lake is perfectly natural as are the connections to Eora, but it can take a while for said souls to flow through either way or even find said connections. Reincarnation is messy and unorganized, but it works.
 
In comes the wheel: I imagine it as a series of sluces/dams controlling the flow to and from the lake, with the "in-between" in particular being an area artifically separated "between Eora and lake", so the gods have some time to deal with souls coming through. Reïncarnation is streamlined and under strict divine control.
 
In comes Eothas, smashing the sluces, dams and everything that streamlined the flow. Sure, the machinery's broken, but it's still connected to the system, and it's usually not exactly helpful when there's a smashed-up, utterly wrecked ruin of a sluce somewhere along your canal. In other words: the flow's still there, but the system that used to "help" it has now become a burden, clogging up the flow of souls. Eothas causes a "Rebirth" of the rebirth system this way, which must be like Nirvana for a god of Rebirth.

 

One thing I also noticed is that, in the Rymrgand ending, things don't go apocalyptic until "Eothas' doubt spreads to the Luminous Adra", whatever that may mean. In other words, Eothas destroys the world by infecting something that wasn't part of the machinery, meaning it was probably there before it was built.

 

It's all damn unclear though, and i hope they won't end up actually retconning anything, since that usually ends badly and makes a mess out of continuity. Though it may be too late for that.
 

Why does Sawyer think he can rip off the wheel of Saṃsāra and present it as something original? Things were better when they used refined settings like forgotten realms and not tried "to invent the wheel".

 
Complaining about the re-use of known concepts in games is ridiculous, though i do agree it could be fleshed out a bit more. And while "the wheel of reïncarnation" is somewhat overused, the idea of people building said wheel is quite an original concept in my experience. Also, the sheer irony in using the metaphor "inventing the wheel" is beautiful

 

Some ideas are used and re-used a lot because, unsurprisingly, they're good, useful and easily understood ideas to build a story/philosophy/nation around. And as they say: one source is plagiarism, a hundred's research. There's hundreds of cultures throughout history who use(d) the symbolism of a wheel/snake eating it's tail/other circular things for reïncarnation, because it's the easiest way to symbolize it. And it's quite believable that the Engwithans, being scientists and engineers, would use one of the earliest achievements of science/engineering as a symbol for their masterpiece.

Edited May 27, 2018 by Taevyr

[Shoitaan]

Just throwing a random thought into the sea of speculation here given none of the devs/writers are coming online to provide any form of clarification:

Perhaps the wheel itself functions as a dynamo for Engwithans systems whether it be the fake gods or something else they have happening. Maybe the souls are 'taxed' as part of the cycle or maybe the symple flow of souls is enough to power the dynamo - who knows. The gods sure don't seem to and if they do, they're not letting on. Too busy infighting.

 

If this is the case, I hope whatever happens next won't follow the path of the Mistwalker trilogy where one crappy system/god is there to hold back bigger ancient menaces/gods and now with the wheel destroyed, the Adra-Cthullu is going to emerge and go upside the Kith's heads. 

 

Also if there is a third game coming, whatever happens next may not involve the (current) watcher. The romance ending slides had a sense of finality to them but maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

Has Obsidian confirmed other DLC as part of the season pass beyond the 3 announced?
 

[Wormerine]

Also if there is a third game coming, whatever happens next may not involve the (current) watcher. The romance ending slides had a sense of finality to them but maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

Has Obsidian confirmed other DLC as part of the season pass beyond the 3 announced?

 

No, nothing what was said by Obsidian suggested that there is anything else planned other than 3x$10 expansions.

 

But....

 

Gog release announcement said:

Or plan for the future with the Obsidian Edition, which also grants you access to the Season Pass, that contains the first three pieces of planned DLC.

 

First three? Surely that means there is more to come.

 

On a more reasonable note: I doubt gog would know anything at that point, anyway. I would really really like if those 3 expansions would be a build up to a large, after main campaign content, but I would be really really surprised if that was the case.

[Slotharingia]

It's mind blowing to me the writers didn't realise that editing out what makes the story make sense is a bad idea, especially since most of the convos with Eothas don't involve anything of substance being said o.O

[HooAmEye]

Well, that is pretty much the entirety of PoE2, isn't it?

[FecklessFool]

It's mind blowing to me the writers didn't realise that editing out what makes the story make sense is a bad idea, especially since most of the convos with Eothas don't involve anything of substance being said o.O

 

Totally with you there. It's why, to me, what JS said about them taking stuff out felt more like a hastily cobbled excuse for all the contradictions (also known as retcons). Take out main quest dialog content when the main quest dialog is already very sparse and unsatisfying? Why? 

 

I would prefer Xoti didn't exist and they just focused on polishing the main quest content.

 

And I'm singling out Xoti because I got tricked into dragging her along for the entirety of my first playthrough because I was waiting for a chance to go, "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW XOTI?!" sometime during the main quest. 

 

But nope. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by FecklessFool

[drchocapic]

I would prefer Xoti didn't exist and they just focused on polishing the main quest content.

 

 

Any reason to end Xoti's existence is a good reason.

 

Another thing that bugs me in the main quest is the fact that Eothas is so hell bent on revealing the true nature of the gods as if it would change anything.

 

So your gods were "manufactured" thousands of years ago instead of just plopping out of nowhere eons ago : it doesn't change the fact that they're freaking gods, with godlike powers, that can inhabit a giant freaking unstoppable adra statue or drop a moon on your head if they don't like you.

 

Being "real" gods or "manufactured" gods doesn't change the fact that Ondra quite obviously controls the oceans, so fishermen and sailors would still pray to her and so forth with the other deities.

 

If your "manufactured" gods are as powerful and influential as "actual" gods would be then I don't really see their origin mattering that much.

 

Eothas is acting like revealing the truth is going to stop everybody from worshipping the gods but how is that going to stop Magran from popping a volcano right under your butt exactly? If scepticism towards the gods doesn't shield you from taking a tsunami to the face, I doubt it would become that popular of a hobby to be honest.

 

If anything, it seems more likely to me that revealing the true nature of the gods would only invite some Concelhaut-level maniacs to try and ascend to godhood on their own, which is obviously going to end great.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling, the more I think about the main quest, the more I realize how much I disliked it.

[Heijoushin]

Ekera. Same issue as PoE1. Religion is a sensitive topic in real life because there are believers and non-believers. In a world where gods actually interact with mortals and we know so much about the afterlife, I don't think "religious scepticism" is a great theme.

[Tarlonniel]

In a world where gods actually interact with mortals and we know so much about the afterlife, I don't think "religious scepticism" is a great theme.

I was hoping for much more on that topic in this game - what it means to be a god, whether it really matters if the gods were created or (in whatever sense) natural, how the various religious sects would respond to revelations about the gods' true nature. Next game, I guess?

[parnashwind]

Eothas is acting like revealing the truth is going to stop everybody from worshipping the gods but how is that going to stop Magran from popping a volcano right under your butt exactly? If scepticism towards the gods doesn't shield you from taking a tsunami to the face, I doubt it would become that popular of a hobby to be honest.

 

If anything, it seems more likely to me that revealing the true nature of the gods would only invite some Concelhaut-level maniacs to try and ascend to godhood on their own, which is obviously going to end great.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling, the more I think about the main quest, the more I realize how much I disliked it.

 

 

I am also very disappointed that the Watcher does not get to question Eothas about his logic. Reveal the true nature of the gods, break the wheel and then leave the kith to their own devices? Is Eothas the God of stupidity?

 

Crazy and sour people like Pallegina and the Republic will definitely try to create their own "gods" to serve their interest. It will definitely create a "Gods Race" to see which nation or people could succeed first in creating new Gods. 

 

Concelhuat is a saint compared to the Engwithans. He just wanna become a Lich, he largely leaves other alone or he leaves the majority alone. Unlike the Engwithans who combined their collective stupidity into the God known as Eothas. 

 

Also, I get a feeling that the writers are constantly trying to cast Animancy is a positive light in the name of progress. Harvesting and sacrificing the souls of hundreds and thousands and refine their essence of stupidity into Gods is anything but progress... it is congress.

[Slotharingia]

I would prefer Xoti didn't exist and they just focused on polishing the main quest content.

 

And I'm singling out Xoti because I got tricked into dragging her along for the entirety of my first playthrough because I was waiting for a chance to go, "WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW XOTI?!" sometime during the main quest. 

 

But nope.

Not a great fan of Xoti myself although she's quite handy as a pure monk, but I don't hate her. What annoys me the most about her isn't her religious babble per se but her narrowminded attitude. Considered a kind of heretic herself, she'll be all uppity about people who don't believe in the gods although The Watcher and Pallegina already know the gods are fake. Then Aloth's nauseating and imo non-senseical compulsive approval of her also really irks me. It'd be okay if it was only pro Leaden Key Aloth doing it, but it's not. I'd have been pro getting rid of some of the really boring interactions with the other gods and especially the repetetive bell ringing blablabla and replacing that with meaningful interactions with Eothas. Honestly I just want to skip through all of that, lol.

 

Anyway, I read a comment somewhere yesterday when I was falling asleep (cannot find anymore) about Adra. In POE1 Adra is described as the veins of Eora, making Eora alive (reminding somewhat of lyrium in Dragon Age). So what if Adra used to be responsible for reincarnation and the Engwithans essentially broke that in order to be immortal? Could that mean that ultimately keeping the wheel would end all things? I'm prolly way off here but the whole thing about gods creating the wheel and Eothas breaking it to "make things better" just won't fit in my puny brain xD

Edited May 29, 2018 by Slotharingia

[bugarup]

 

Another thing that bugs me in the main quest is the fact that Eothas is so hell bent on revealing the true nature of the gods as if it would change anything.

 

So your gods were "manufactured" thousands of years ago instead of just plopping out of nowhere eons ago : it doesn't change the fact that they're freaking gods, with godlike powers, that can inhabit a giant freaking unstoppable adra statue or drop a moon on your head if they don't like you.

 

Being "real" gods or "manufactured" gods doesn't change the fact that Ondra quite obviously controls the oceans, so fishermen and sailors would still pray to her and so forth with the other deities.

 

If your "manufactured" gods are as powerful and influential as "actual" gods would be then I don't really see their origin mattering that much.

 

 

This very thing is what turned "the big reveal" of PoE into tiny fart for me. No, lady, they are real, and the word you are looking for is 'artificial'. It also helped me to ignore the main quest of Deadfire better - "bah,who cares what that giant droid wants, I have things to do, political schemes to navigate". 

 

Still, I liked the gods and will be sad to see them gone. They are an interesting bunch -- while mostly habitual archetypes (sea/moon, trickster god, reaper), they had peculiarities here and there to make them less cliche -- like fertility associated with birds or Skaen being basically the god of sadistic schadenfreude. I loved those divine interjections they did (great voice and sound there) and how annoyed they were when the Watcher tried to actively participate. Come on, guys, it's my head you're holding this conference in, some courtesy would be nice. 

[flamesium]

It's still quite a big deal for everyone to suddenly have incontrovertible proof that the 'gods' were manufactured and that they've been deliberately misled for generations. I think most would be less inclined to worship a construct of a previous civilisation than they would a 'natural' God.

 

The destruction and subsequent study / replacement of The Wheel may also reveal a weakness in the 'gods' that can be exploited. It's likely the gods have been maintained by skimming off the soul energy passing through The Wheel. This may ultimately lead to Kith having to decide whether they want to keep the gods, limit the gods, or get rid of them entirely.

 

The gods themselves may have to decide whether to ensure their survival by justifying their continued existence to Kith as they rebuild/replace The Wheel, or by throwing down on Kith and forcing them into it. This would no doubt lead to a split in the pantheon of the gods, as well as among the various Kith factions.

[Modron217]

Who's to say that the Engwithans didn't just alter and hijack a natural occurring resurrection cycle? There had to be some existing framework that allowed them engineer it towards their own ends.

To create a more peaceful existence, they created the Gods. Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if the Engwithans that designed the gods had a some additional machinations in mind that they kept hidden those who proselytized the faith later. It wouldn't shock me that either the original designers or the gods themselves pulled the wool over Thaos' eyes for their own needs. Clearly the gods in PoEII, sans Eothas, seem to be far more worried about their own existence more than anything else. Maybe a gods are a small codrie of powerful Engiwthans who wished to increase their strength with souls, but had their minds altered by the process. Could a small part of the wheel given a small cadre of Engiwthans true immortality where their souls would not wither and they'd have full recollection?

If the series is meant to be a trilogy, then I could see the final installment on how the kith had been hoodwinked. A few notice that some souls are coming back, while who haven't seen it that are wallowing in what they believe are their last lives, all while secret groups and the gods make their last plays to retain their power. I do feel like there is a reason for the plot railroading with the wheel being broken, as much as it feels like a bit of a downer to be far more of an observer.

[Skazz]

Still, I liked the gods and will be sad to see them gone. They are an interesting bunch -- while mostly habitual archetypes (sea/moon, trickster god, reaper), they had peculiarities here and there to make them less cliche -- like fertility associated with birds or Skaen being basically the god of sadistic schadenfreude. I loved those divine interjections they did (great voice and sound there) and how annoyed they were when the Watcher tried to actively participate. Come on, guys, it's my head you're holding this conference in, some courtesy would be nice.

 

See, this is exactly why I don't like them. They seem to be having a bit too much fun playing games and being petty. Two-thirds of Deadfire content could be summarized as "people get desperate because a god (typically Ondra) doesn't give a damn". And if a god doesn't care about their worshippers, then I don't see a reason why a worshipper should care about their god. Sure, souls may be just a resource to them, and the gods may have been created to keep things both orderly and stale, but that also means they were created to be in charge of things. They should take responsibility.

 

To whip out one of my favorite Discworld quotes of all time:

 

 

What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

Edited May 29, 2018 by Skazz

[bugarup]

 

See, this is exactly why I don't like them. They seem to be having a bit too much fun playing games and being petty. Two-thirds of Deadfire content could be summarized as "people get desperate because a god (typically Ondra) doesn't give a damn". And if a god doesn't care about their worshippers, then I don't see a reason why a worshipper should care about their god. Sure, souls may be just a resource to them, and the gods may have been created to keep things both orderly and stale, but that also means they were created to be in charge of things. They should take responsibility.

 

To whip out one of my favorite Discworld quotes of all time:

 

 

What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

 

 

Well, Woedica had a lot of responsibility once, got dragged down fast. Abyddon also tried to care, caught a moon with his face. And we all remember what happened to ol' Waidwen on that bridge. No wonder the rest of them stay put. Or maybe they've been programmed this way -- if one gets involved with kith too much, the others are compelled to squish it. Then it appears someone forgot to code in "One of them goes after the Wheel" situation, and voila, we have what we have.

 

(One of my own favourite sir Pterry's quotes is Nanny Ogg's about two kinds of opera, so frivolous being as I am I don't mind the gods playing games and bickering instead of tending to their duties    )

[wRAR]

And if a god doesn't care about their worshippers, then I don't see a reason why a worshipper should care about their god. Sure, souls may be just a resource to them, and the gods may have been created to keep things both orderly and stale, but that also means they were created to be in charge of things. They should take responsibility.

 

To whip out one of my favorite Discworld quotes of all time:

 

 

What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

 

 

 

 

One good life. One extraordinary life. What levy must be paid for such a thing?

If the gods won't answer, it's for us to decide.

[Palas]

.Anyway, I read a comment somewhere yesterday when I was falling asleep (cannot find anymore) about Adra. In POE1 Adra is described as the veins of Eora, making Eora alive (reminding somewhat of lyrium in Dragon Age). So what if Adra used to be responsible for reincarnation and the Engwithans essentially broke that in order to be immortal? Could that mean that ultimately keeping the wheel would end all things? I'm prolly way off here but the whole thing about gods creating the wheel and Eothas breaking it to "make things better" just won't fit in my puny brain xD

Well, in the prolog in PoE1 the caravan leader tells you, that Adra once was growing (today it isn't) and that the vains reach to the heart of the world. It could be superstition, but who knows?

 

Luminous Adra is only find in deadfire near the wheel. Could it be, that once all adra was luminous?

 

In Port Male i found an ancient stone from the engwithans. Its tell about his people and the Huana were friends und they are working to make the incarnation more reliable.

 

Still, much speculation. Created the gods not onlythe wheel but the inbetween too?

[Insolentius]

 

 

See, this is exactly why I don't like them. They seem to be having a bit too much fun playing games and being petty. Two-thirds of Deadfire content could be summarized as "people get desperate because a god (typically Ondra) doesn't give a damn". And if a god doesn't care about their worshippers, then I don't see a reason why a worshipper should care about their god. Sure, souls may be just a resource to them, and the gods may have been created to keep things both orderly and stale, but that also means they were created to be in charge of things. They should take responsibility.

 

To whip out one of my favorite Discworld quotes of all time:

 

 

What can the harvest hope for, if not the care of the reaper man?

 

 

 

 Or maybe they've been programmed this way -- if one gets involved with kith too much, the others are compelled to squish it.

 

I recall some form of pact between the gods being mentioned in both Deadfire and in the original Pillars... or maybe I'm confusing the two with another game.

[Insolentius]

Did the game ever account for the Ngati/Ondra conundrum?

 

I mean, the Huana living on Ukaizo entered into a covenant with Ngati (and enjoyed the protection provided by her three guardian dragons) before the Engwithans arrived on the island. The problem here is that Ondra didn't even exist at that point in time and that she, according to the Guardian, created/activated Ondra's Mortar soon after the Engwithans vanished (i.e. ascended to godhood). The ancestral watershaping form can be found on Ukaizo, so it must mean that they acquired that ability from Ngati (who can't be Ondra) before the cataclysm.

[Tarlonniel]

The only explanation I can come up with requires a significant time gap between the creation of the gods and the cataclysm. Ondra comes into being, talks to the Huana as Ngati and gives them knowledge and a bit of her power in exchange for them becoming the Glanfathans of the Deadfire. Then the gods decide that isn't enough and cause mass destruction too. This has the side effect of weakening the watershapers, but Ondra/Ngati doesn't seem to care because her purpose has been accomplished.

 

I'm a little hazy on the guardians. I believe the watershaper dragon says it wasn't even born when the cataclysm happened. The guardian of Ukaizo has a lot of knowledge about what happened before the gods came into existence, but is that because it was created before the gods, or was it given the knowledge afterwards, when it was put there as a guard after the destruction?