Please Revert the Might Changes

[Davrial]

Please reverse the Might to Strength change! The fact that it was useful not only for melee people but also spellcasters was extremely interesting and one of the things that set Pillars apart from normal D&D.

It also fit the roleplay aspects better as it meant a high Might made you intimidating in dialogue, because you were powerful, it didnt matter if that power was physical or magical.

Also this change makes Resolve even MORE mandatory than it already was, and it was already extremely important for most builds and even more so for magic casters before.

This puts ad ridiculous amount of focus on Resolve and takes away literally half the use of Might.

 

I've been all for the changes to PoE2 but this one is not good at all, all it will do is make Deadfire less of its own thing and even more "just another offbrand D&D game" which is doing it a massive disservice.

[MaxQuest]

Am neither pro or against this change (at least at the moment), but I do find part of the argumentation a bit odd.

 

It also fit the roleplay aspects better as it meant a high Might made you intimidating in dialogue, because you were powerful, it didnt matter if that power was physical or magical.

Intimidation is more related to the sense of threat. An NPC could be afraid of a mighty brute, resolute inquisitor, or of 2 MIG / 2 RES cipher who could potentially charm/dominate and send him to death.

 

Also this change makes Resolve even MORE mandatory than it already was, and it was already extremely important for most builds and even more so for magic casters before.

Could you elaborate on the 'extremely important' department?

[Heijoushin]

I agree that this makes melee casters less viable and that is unfortunate. But I beg to differ on the roleplaying front. This has been discussed many times before on this board, but the in-game Might dialogues were always written describing physical strength. In terms of roleplaying, I hated seeing my petite wizard lady hurl people across the room with her rippling muscles or headbutt people into submission.

 

And I don't think that this one little change will make Deadfire "just another offbrand D&D game". It has a lot more going for it than that.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I'd also prefer a return to Might.

 

I understand why the change was made (resolve needed something) but I hope they can come up with something else that's useful for Resolve.

 

The main reason I don't like this change, though, is that it makes hybrid builds and hybrid classes a lot more difficult to play and unworkable, for reasons I've gone over in detail previously -- you only get so many stat points at creation, and the more you have to spread them out, the less effective you are at any one thing.  Previously, you could make a front-line priest who was a good damage dealer and a good healer, or a mage who was good with summoned weapons and spells, or a druid who was effective as a shifter and as a caster. Now with this change everyone has to pick something to suck at; it's a lot less possible to make an effective hybrid. 

 

This is, of course, worst for ciphers, who due to the focus mechanic, have to be good at dealing physical damage in order to generate focus to do anything else; this change makes it much more difficult to make a single-class cipher that's good at anything (though part of this issue is occluded by other issues like current casting times). If you put your points in Strength, you can generate focus, but you won't have the points for Resolve and literally half (I counted) of your powers will be much less effective; if you put the points in Resolve, you'll have effective damage powers, but you'll have a much harder time generating the focus to cast them (due to low Strength).

 

Given all that, it seems like a really weird design choice to replace Might with Str/Res at the same time that multi-classing is being added to the game and the party size is being reduced from six to five, both changes that make hybrid characters more relevant and important. It feels like the game is shunting players towards making hybrids and then simultaneously hobbling hybrid builds specifically. 

 

There are some ways they could try to force this fix to work -- for example, giving Ciphers the option to use Resolve for weapon damage instead of Might, etc. -- but they all feel like the game design equivalent of adding epicycles to the geocentric theory of the universe. Yes, with enough special extra rules and tweaks you can make it work . . .  but the elegant, better solution (i.e., in this analogy, Might / Heliocentrism) is right there in front of you.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[AndreaColombo]

Subbing thread.

 

I’m also in favor of returning to MIG as it was before the update.

[JerekKruger]

I really don't like the change and I can't help feeling that it was made to pander to those who don't like "muscle Wizards" even though Might also covers spiritual strength in Pillars. The patch notes state that:

 

From a *~ roleplaying ~* perspective, it feels weird to have muscley wizards casting high damage fireballs because they can bench 350 lbs.

 

Well guess what, from a roleplaying perspective it absolutely sucks having to completely change those fundamental characteristics (attributes) of my imported Wizard in order to have her fulfil the same role they did in Pillars. You can't please everyone, so stick to your original novel concept of a generic Might and find another way of making Resolve tempting. Who knows, you might even find a way that avoids Strength/Resolve being dump stats for Spellcasting/Martial characters respectively, and wouldn't that be better than the current situation where I now can't make an effective muscly Wizard even if I want to.

 

As for non-feely arguments, Hieronymous pretty much summarises my views perfectly. I don't actually agree with the OP, since Resolve is a dump stat in Deadfire right now and was probably the most dumpable stat in Pillars too.

Edited December 22, 2017 by JerekKruger

[thelee]

Please reverse the Might to Strength change! The fact that it was useful not only for melee people but also spellcasters was extremely interesting and one of the things that set Pillars apart from normal D&D.

It also fit the roleplay aspects better as it meant a high Might made you intimidating in dialogue, because you were powerful, it didnt matter if that power was physical or magical.

Also this change makes Resolve even MORE mandatory than it already was, and it was already extremely important for most builds and even more so for magic casters before.

This puts ad ridiculous amount of focus on Resolve and takes away literally half the use of Might.

 

I've been all for the changes to PoE2 but this one is not good at all, all it will do is make Deadfire less of its own thing and even more "just another offbrand D&D game" which is doing it a massive disservice.

 

I don't know what game you were playing, because I don't know who on earth thought Resolve was mandatory. Even when it did more stuff in Pillars, it was essentially a dump stat for everyone other than tanks. The lack of concentration in Deadfire made Resolve even more marginal. It definitely needed a boost.

 

I really don't like the change and I can't help feeling that it was made to pander to those who don't like "muscle Wizards" even though Might also covers spiritual strength in Pillars. The patch notes state that:

 

From a *~ roleplaying ~* perspective, it feels weird to have muscley wizards casting high damage fireballs because they can bench 350 lbs.

 

Well guess what, from a roleplaying perspective it absolutely sucks having to completely change those fundamental characteristics (attributes) of my imported Wizard in order to have her fulfil the same role they did in Pillars. You can't please everyone, so stick to your original novel concept of a generic Might and find another way of making Resolve tempting. Who knows, you might even find a way that avoids Strength/Resolve being dump stats for Spellcasting/Martial characters respectively, and wouldn't that be better than the current situation where I now can't make an effective muscly Wizard even if I want to.

 

As for non-feely arguments, Hieronymous pretty much summarises my views perfectly. I don't actually agree with the OP, since Resolve is a dump stat in Deadfire right now and was probably the most dumpable stat in Pillars too.

 

The justification in the patch notes made no sense to me, because back in PoE a whole lot was made out of the fact that Might was named that way because it meant like spiritual/soul power, and that's why it amplified both physical and magical damage. Some odd historical revisionism happening here.

 

Personally I'm a little ambivalent about the change. Resolve definitely needed a boost, but having Might be *the* damage stat was a nice distinguishing factor for Pillars vs many other systems (notably D&D).

Edited December 22, 2017 by thelee

[JerekKruger]

The justification in the patch notes made no sense to me, because back in PoE a whole lot was made out of the fact that Might was named that way because it meant like spiritual/soul power, and that's why it amplified both physical and magical damage. Some odd historical revisionism happening here.

 

Indeed, that's why I suspect it was done to please the anti-muscle wizard crowd.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Subbing thread.

 

I’m also in favor of returning to MIG as it was before the update.

 

 

Roughly speaking, yeah. Might is preferable to Str/Res; give Res something else new.

 

That said if we're talking a little more specifically Might would need some further tweaks; MaxQuest lays out an excellent argument for what those tweaks should be here (essentially,that Might should be additive with other passive damage boosts like soul whip, and then that total boost should be multiplicative), but that's getting into more detail than we maybe need in this thread right now.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

The justification in the patch notes made no sense to me, because back in PoE a whole lot was made out of the fact that Might was named that way because it meant like spiritual/soul power, and that's why it amplified both physical and magical damage. Some odd historical revisionism happening here.

 

Indeed, that's why I suspect it was done to please the anti-muscle wizard crowd.

 

 

 

Nah, everything I've seen the obsidian guys post indicates it was just "we need to give Resolve something, this is something, let's try it", but they also thought it would make the D&D Heritage folks happy because so many people come into Pillars from earlier games and just expect the Strength stat to be useless for casters. Not so much "muscle wizard hatred" as "this confuses new people because it isn't what they expect."

 

Which is actually another reason I prefer Might over Strength: it's a very clear and stark and up-front indication, to anyone who bothers to actually read the screens in character generation, that this isn't just a D&D reskin; it's a different system and you're in a different universe and nothing's gonna be quite what you're used to. In a way it's almost a branding element worked into the character creation screens, an up front advertisement that things are a little bit different. 

 

And in the long run I think that helps new players because there are a lot of different ways these games aren't Dungeons and Dragons and it's good to emphasize that right away with the very first number they see. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Wormerine]

The justification in the patch notes made no sense to me, because back in PoE a whole lot was made out of the fact that Might was named that way because it meant like spiritual/soul power, and that's why it amplified both physical and magical damage. Some odd historical revisionism happening here.

 

 

I don’t know how “might” was pitched originally as I wasn’t following development of PoE1, but “might” has never been tied to soul power within the game. It is clearly described as a stat describing physical strength and spellcasting capabilities + scripted interactions clearly tied this stat to physical strength.

 

Looking forward to creating:

 

1) cipher

 

2) high strenght and low resolve mage

 

and seeing if those characters are as useless as some people suggest.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

The justification in the patch notes made no sense to me, because back in PoE a whole lot was made out of the fact that Might was named that way because it meant like spiritual/soul power, and that's why it amplified both physical and magical damage. Some odd historical revisionism happening here.

 

I don’t know how “might” was pitched originally as I wasn’t following development of PoE1, but “might” has never been tied to soul power within the game. It is clearly described as a stat describing physical strength and spellcasting capabilities + scripted interactions clearly tied this stat to physical strength.

 

Looking forward to creating:

 

1) cipher

 

2) high strenght and low resolve mage

 

and seeing if those characters are as useless as some people suggest.

 

 

 

You could probably make a high Strength autoattack weapon mage and do alright. Not great, but alright. Try dual wands. 

 

Similarly, multiclass melee soulblade ciphers can still be pretty effective, mostly because you just ignore most or all of the cipher powers and just spend your focus on bonus melee damage.

 

One big problem you'll run into with testing this change is that there's a confounding variable -- the extroardinarily long cast times on all powers and spells right now -- so testing out pure casters is just kinda blaaaaah regardless, and almost any hybrid you play right now tends to default towards weapon damage anyway.  It's hard to test out a melee wizard right now for example because the summoned weapons have such long casting times that by the time you've finished summoning your weapon most of the fight is over. 

 

 

That said I don't want to imply that any build is "useless" even with the new changes; I'm pretty sure you could theoretically solo the first game using a character that hadn't taken any stat points at all at character creation, just left everything at ten. It'd be frustrating, but still possible. The game design is pretty flexible and lots of stuff is possible, it's just a question of how much pain is involved in making it possible. The difference between an effective character and an ineffective character isn't one of useful vs useless, it's one of how many times you feel like reloading.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[dragubaba]

"Spiritual strenght" is pretty stupid concept anyway. Sounds like something taken from oriental religious heritage. Or anime. Now resolve however is strenght of character. Stuborness and perseverance, something you'd think would enhance the effectiveness of mental-derived damage.

[Wormerine]

You could probably make a high Strength autoattack weapon mage and do alright. Not great, but alright. Try dual wands.

 

Similarly, multiclass melee soulblade ciphers can still be pretty effective, mostly because you just ignore most or all of the cipher powers and just spend your focus on bonus melee damage.

 

 

Sure, but I am interested more in spells which make use of strength. If strength based mage wont use spells much, that will be disappointing.

 

In PoE1 I mostly used Cipher as weapon DPS/crowd control character, so for that build resolve is not,helpful anyway. There is now choices to be made between weapon and spell damage but in my opinion it’s a boon not a problem (at least in theory).

Edited December 22, 2017 by Wormerine

[JerekKruger]

"Spiritual strenght" is pretty stupid concept anyway. 

 

Not really, particularly not when you consider the importance of souls in the setting.

 

Sounds like something taken from oriental religious heritage. Or anime. 

 

And that makes it stupid why?

 

Now resolve however is strenght of character. Stuborness and perseverance, something you'd think would enhance the effectiveness of mental-derived damage.

 

And it makes sense that a Wizard with high Might would be mighty.

Edited December 22, 2017 by JerekKruger

[dragubaba]

Not really, particularly not when you consider the importance of souls in the setting.

 

Well you have a point there with soul stuff. But just as well you can have a resolute soul and claim the same benefits than with a mighty soul. In this context they are almost synonyms.

 

 

And that makes it stupid why?

 

In this world every person claiming to have "spiritual strenght" have turned up to be a determined and charismatic individual with lots of time to spare. And anime is for children.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

You could probably make a high Strength autoattack weapon mage and do alright. Not great, but alright. Try dual wands.

 

Similarly, multiclass melee soulblade ciphers can still be pretty effective, mostly because you just ignore most or all of the cipher powers and just spend your focus on bonus melee damage.

 

Sure, but I am interested more in spells which make use of strength. If strength based mage wont use spells much, that will be disappointing.

 

In PoE1 I mostly used Cipher as weapon DPS/crowd control character, so for that build resolve is not,helpful anyway. There is now choices to be made between weapon and spell damage but in my opinion it’s a boon not a problem (at least in theory).

 

 

 

You could make a strength based mage that used buffs and CC and so forth, it'd just be the damage powers that you'd avoid; your dps would all come from autoattacking with your equipped weapon, whatever that was.

 

Similarly you could still make the classic might/dex/per/int Cipher that dumps resolve, you'll just need to avoid all the damage powers. That's about half the power list, and includes things like Silent Scream that combine debuffs and damage, or Pain Block that combine buffs and healing.  You'll be locked into a much narrower selection of powers and a much tighter role than you were before. (You'll also run into the issue that all CC powers blow right now because they take longer to cast than the expected value of their durations, but that's a separate confounding variable, the rock to this change's hard place. ).

 

As above . . . the problem isn't so much that a given build is impossible or sucks now, as that there's less freedom in character building. You have to specialize, and to the extent that you don't specialize, you'll be penalized.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Davrial]

Wow, I honestly didnt expect this thread to get so big so quickly.

 

I'm glad to see so many people agree that the change doesnt fit.

 

 

On the note of people disagreeing with me tho,I saw many people didnt agree with my comment on Resolve being mandatory, and that's fair. It was a minor complaint that I threw in, as I was impassioned when I was writing that and was failing to take into account how my personal preferences affected my playstyle, and I personally used Resolve a lot as I liked the dialogue interactions with it and it was good for not being interrupted (and I hate having my combat being interrupted no matter what class I play)

[Davrial]

Oh and I forgot to mention in that comment:

 

I wasnt even thinking about it, but others pointed it out and yeah it strikes me as extra bad timing considering they are trying to implement Multiclassing and this is pretty much shooting that in the foot by forcefully separating a generally-applicable stat into 2 far more niche stats.

 

That's actually a main part of why I liked Might so much: In most D&D based or similar games, Strength is useless if you're a mage, but in Pillars the same stat that made you a strong mage also made you strong overall.

[deneweth]

If we're suddenly policing muscle wizards, then I call shenanigans on the brainbarians.  Oh and just so you guys know dragons aren't real either.

[Olauron Mor-Galad]

To be fair the new system is much more engaging both mechanically and from roleplaying perspective. Wizards can still invest in Strength if they use conjured weapons or orbs (like Kalakoth's Blights). 

[drgonzo]

I like the change. I never liked soul power and physical strength being combined into one stat.

[Sedrefilos]

I'm pro old style might too but this has been discussed so much and Obsidian have already made up their minds about this build so let's just see how it plays at least.

 

PS. I don't know where they got the idea than most people wanted strength instead of might though. There were so many complaints about the change which make me think: where do they get their feedback from?

[Sedrefilos]

To me, being strong = you cast stronger spells sounded nice. I never thought might was spiritual strength and the rest. And I don't know why smarts = better spellcasting should be the norm and why so many people can't think outside that. It's magic, it works however its designer feels like.

[drgonzo]

To me, being strong = you cast stronger spells sounded nice. I never thought might was spiritual strength and the rest. And I don't know why smarts = better spellcasting should be the norm and why so many people can't think outside that. It's magic, it works however its designer feels like.

Im ok with that too, although I think the game/lore was a bit unclear about this.