The upcoming paladin change - needed or too much?

[KDubya]

In the next Beta update Priests are getting bonus spells based on their deity choice (which looks to be a good idea) and Paladins are losing their malus.

 

Paladins have a great core class ability in Faith and Conviction, which when modified by Deep Faith becomes a +20 defense buff to everything. This is arguably one of the best core class abilities and blends well with any class with multi-classing.

 

In addition each Paladin Order gets a bonus ability pick such as 'Lay on Hands' or 'Flames of Devotion', plus they get an Order specific bonus such as Bleak Walkers having extra corrode damage on their FoD which also imparts sickened, Kind Wayfarers get 'White Flames' which heal nearby characters when using FoD and so on.

 

Paladins also get an Order specific malus such as Bleak Walkers having -30% healing received and given, Goldpacts miss out on Auras and so on.

 

It was a big penalty but Paladins gained a lot as well, not to mention that it was very thematically appropriate and gave real distinction between the Orders. A Bleak Walker who heals or a sneak attacking Kind Wayfarer just doesn't fit well.

 

Now in the next iteration Paladins get to keep all the bonuses but lose the penalty. This to me seems entirely too powerful.

 

I think they need to keep the penalty for both balance and to promote roleplaying.

 

Agree or not?

 

[dunehunter]

I don't think the penalty is OK for pal, I personally prefer if they keep the penalty but remove the paladin/priest multiclass restrictions.

 

Some paladin subclass' penalty is pretty minor compare to others. For example, the penalty of shieldbearer to not able to use LoH on self is a very minor penalty, and in exchange their bonus is not that huge. Removing the penalty might cause some balance issue which favor certain paladin subclass.

Edited December 16, 2017 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

The multiclass restrictions are there to make sense with Dispositions. I think they should be kept.

 

I’m OK with the Paladin’s penalties, though I also understand why they’d remove them. Honestly fixing casters (and especially Ciphers), as well as making stacking rules consistent, is a lot more of a priority for Deadfire but apparently Obsidian beg to differ on this one.

Edited December 16, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[Boeroer]

I find the multiclass restrictions kind of stupid. Now I can't do a Bleak Walker/Priest of Berath because their dispositions clash a bit - but it's totally ok to pick a Priest of Berath and play him cruel/aggressively.

I will just get weaker disposition bonuses which could be removed with Untroubled Faith.

 

Why can't I do the same with said multiclass options? If I pick Bleak Walker's/Berath I should get punished by weaker disposition gains. Then I could pick Untroubled Faith at some point to remove the restrictions if I wished. This could also mean that I have to take it once for my paladin class to remove the maluses for my paladin abilities and a second time to remove my maluses on the priest abilities.

 

This would mean that there is some hefty drawback when I choose uncommon combos - but we wouldn't have "forbidden" combos (which I don't like).

Edited December 16, 2017 by Boeroer

[KDubya]

If the Devs are worried about someone picking a Paladin -Priest combo that is diametrically opposed they can have a warning pop up that advises against it and detail why.

 

I'd rather have the freedom to make something crazy like a Skaen Priest/Kind Wayfarer than to have it blocked. 

[JerekKruger]

I felt that some of the Paladin penalties were a little too steep and should have been changed to make them less so, but on the whole I don't think they needed to be removed altogether.

 

I find the multiclass restrictions kind of stupid. Now I can't do a Bleak Walker's/Priest of Berath because their dispositions clash a bit - but it's totally ok to pick a Priest of Berath and play him cruel/aggressively.
I will just get weaker disposition bonuses which could be removed with Untroubled Faith.

Why can't I do the same with said multiclass options? If I pick Bleak Walker's/Berath I should get punished by weaker disposition gains. Then I could pick Untroubled Faith at some point to remove the restrictions if I wished. This could also mean that I have to take it once for my paladin class to remove the maluses for my paladin abilities and a second time to remove my maluses on the priest abilities.

This would mean that there is some hefty drawback when I choose uncommon combos - but we wouldn't have "forbidden" combos (which I don't like).

 

Agreed. Throw in a warning when you select this combo if you're worried that players won't realise the risk, but don't disallow it altogether.

[dragubaba]

From what I understood removing multiclass restrictions with a mod is probably possible.

 

I'm all for removing the penalties. Seems troubling you have one melee class where every choise comes with a penalty most other class choises don't have (if you choose the non-subclass variant). I'd still keep them for priests and wizards though.

Edited December 16, 2017 by dragubaba

[L4wlight]

I'd like to see the 2-extra-perks-per-order-system from PoE1 to return while keeping the penalties. That'd differentiate the orders even further, while buffing orders that lost a lot in PoE2 (like Darcozzi Paladini). The second perk (things like Inspiring Liberation) could come with the cost of an ability point.

[Gromnir]

 

Now in the next iteration Paladins get to keep all the bonuses but lose the penalty. This to me seems entirely too powerful.

 

I think they need to keep the penalty for both balance and to promote roleplaying.

 

Agree or not?

 

agree. at the moment, with the penalty, paladins are powerful both as a single class and multiclass option.  one can current choose to play the single-class paladin as tanky, tanky-support, or even dps-- considerable options and variety.  converse, with the current build, one o' the best multiclass options is paladin/anything else. faith and convictions is indeed quite powerful, and sworn enemy/rival imparts both a damage and accuracy bonus which, if utilized with tactical awareness, effective lasts a large % o' any combat encounter.  healing. aoe blindness. numerous enhanced damage talents. so many advantages.

 

you want the +4 armour o' a goldpact knight, then given all the other benefits o' the paladin, foregoing auras don't seem like such a big deal. the current penalties hardly cripple the paladin orders, and the malus does require the player to make hard choices.  the priest school prohibitions (which is being lifted in the next build) could effective limit a priest to a choice between 1-2 spell options during level-up, with neither o' those two options being particular appealing.  lifting the priest prohibitions is the correct choice, but is a cure for a much different problem than what paladin faces.

 

the removal o' the malus is fixing a problem which don't actual exist.  one o' the few classes we had few complaints 'bout is being improved with the wrong kinda fix.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[MaxQuest]

Now in the next iteration Paladins get to keep all the bonuses but lose the penalty. This to me seems entirely too powerful.

 

I think they need to keep the penalty for both balance and to promote roleplaying.

 

Agree or not?

Not sure that penalties will promote roleplaying, but yes I do agree that orders should keep penalties.

All subclasses have them and it's generally nice to sit and have to weight all the pros and cons. But the penalties could be lessened though. For example:

- Bleakwalker: lesser healing reduction, like -15% instead of -30% (or how much it is there now?)

- Goldpact Knight: cannot upgrade their aura - instead of not being able to use them at all

- Kind Wayfarer: if the blow would kill the target if it was a crit - it automatically crits. But auto-attacks no longer benefit from Sneak Attack damage bonus.

 

Also there were mentioned paladin-priest restrictions. I like Jeker's suggestion and would prefer a warning shown to the players that would mention this. And generally (if kept) these restrictions could be lessened to something like:

- Bleakwalker: Cannot multiclass with priests of Eothas, Berath, or Skaen.

- Darcozzi: Cannot multiclass with priests of Berath, Magran, or Skaen

- Goldpact: Cannot multiclass with priests of Magran or Wael.

- Kind Wayfarer: Cannot multiclass with priests of Berath, Magran, Wael, or Skaen.

- Shieldbearer: Cannot multiclass with priests of Skaen, Magran, or Wael.

Edited December 16, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Well, one difference is that other classes can choose not to take a subclass, but paladins and priests cannot. So I can see the argument for not forcing players to take a negative when they just want to Paladin.

 

I feel like a lot of the subclass penalties are too harsh across the board.

[Gromnir]

Well, one difference is that other classes can choose not to take a subclass, but paladins and priests cannot. So I can see the argument for not forcing players to take a negative when they just want to Paladin.

 

I feel like a lot of the subclass penalties are too harsh across the board.

gonna disagree.  no surprise. the subclasses is not s'posed to be superior to the base class.  am thinking the folks who believe penalties is too harsh for many/most subclasses is ignoring the fundamental goal o' keeping subclasses balanced with the base class. w/o harsh penalties to balance powerful benefits, the reasonableness o' choosing a base class diminishes precipitous.  

 

once again, the true problem is ignored/reversed. already too many base classes is losing appeal relative to subclasses.  to simple make paladins more (unnecessarily) powerful to account for lack o' a generalist option ignores the real issues.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

gonna disagree.  no surprise. the subclasses is not s'posed to be superior to the base class.  am thinking the folks who believe penalties is too harsh for many/most subclasses is ignoring the fundamental goal o' keeping subclasses balanced with the base class. w/o harsh penalties to balance powerful benefits, the reasonableness o' choosing a base class diminishes precipitous.  

 

once again, the true problem is ignored/reversed. already too many base classes is losing appeal relative to subclasses.  to simple make paladins more (unnecessarily) powerful to account for lack o' a generalist option ignores the real issues.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I'm not sure where we're disagreeing. Paladins don't even have a "base class" to compare the subclasses against. 

 

Right now a lot of subclasses are just flat out worse than the base class (for example, cipher's Ascendant, or Fighter Black Jackets). I didn't say all subclass penalties were too harsh, I said a lot were, i.e., "some", not all. It's just easy to forget the crappy subclasses because nobody plays them.

 

You are correct that some subclasses are too powerful and are distracting from the base class. It's two sides of the same coin; lots of subclasses need balance tweaks vs. the main classes and vice-versa.

[Madscientist]

I hope that they keep bonusses and penalties the way they are now. Each order gains something and loses something else. This makes the choice between them more significant.

 

I think that they should reduce the muliclassing restrictions between priests and paladins.

Having different dispositions means that each choice will make one class stronger and the other class weaker. This would make some combinations weaker than others, but it is your choice if you want to play such a char or not.

It does not feel good to me that every class can multi class with every other class and only between two classes are heavy restrictions.

[theBalthazar]

Paladin was pretty bad in POE1. I never took it for this reason.

 

I am happy to see this is not the case in POE2.

 

Malus was a little bit problematic because you can't chose base paladin like others classes. So, to me, it is a good choice.

 

Goldpact knights with auras. Good.

Heal with +25 % corrode damage. Good.

 

Paladin is not god tiers, so it is a good choice to expand inspiration for a players who want a class but dislike the penalty.

 

So, Hieronimous is right. Be careful to the ratio Bonus / Penalty. Some classes are worthless because of that.

Edited December 16, 2017 by theBalthazar

[Gromnir]

lot

lät/Submit

pronouninformal

1.

a large number or amount; a great deal.

"there are a lot of actors in the cast"

synonyms: a large amount, a fair amount, a good/great deal, a great quantity, quantities, an abundance, a wealth, a profusion, plenty, a mass; More

 

and

 

"to simple make paladins more (unnecessarily) powerful to account for lack o' a generalist option ignores the real issues."

 

so, once again h. alloy fails to read and suffers curious myopia and/or inversion.  not see where is disagreement?  *chuckle* yes, the paladin lacks a subclass.  already observed such difference as can see from quoted material. such is no reason to give'em more relative power, particular when paladins already are having current significant value as both a single class and multiclass option.  also, "alot" is an indicator o' much, more, many.  so, a couple subclasses which has limited value?  ascendant can be useful but need take advantage o' a few small weapon and multi-class exploits.  am personal not a fan o' extra weapon sets, but now that you cannot get the extra set for free with a racial choice, am suspecting a number o' build monkeys will find a way to squeeze juice out of 'em... not to mention the additional proficiency point will no doubt be even more valuable in the upcoming build.  regardless, either being hyperbolic or misleading when suggesting a lot... which is nevertheless beside the point as the paladin subclasses is not suffering such a handicap.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Yeah, I'm really not going to get into a semantics debate or go through and count exactly where I think all forty-odd subclasses fall on the relative power scale for you. There are a lot of subclasses and a lot of them have balance problems. :shrug:

Edited December 16, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Gromnir]

Yeah, I'm really not going to get into a semantics debate or go through and count exactly where I think all forty-odd subclasses fall on the relative power scale for you. There are a lot of subclasses and a lot of them have balance problems. :shrug:

probable a good idea.  the paladins obvious aren't underpowered.  neither are the druids, barbarians, chanters, etc. the nalpazca is kinda underwhelming, and a few o' the wizard specialists, while clear not underpowered, suffer from extreme paucity o' choices at a few levels-- as with the priests, the specialist wizards need an adjustment or two. the rest?  additional complaints is o' the munchkin variety. so, hardly a lot.

 

oh, and you are correct in observing how a lot of the subclasses have balancing issues.  is far too many subclasses which render the base class irrelevant. 

 

bass ackwards.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps the following should also be axiomatic, but am betting it isn't: do not use subclasses to compare the relative efficacy/desirability o' subclasses. shattered pillar and helwalker is extreme useful subclass options which likely need nerfing.  is little reason to choose vanilla monk save for a few multiclass options.  as such, don't use helwalker and shattered pillar (and paladin subclasses) as some kinda benchmark.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Gromnir

[dunehunter]

 

Yeah, I'm really not going to get into a semantics debate or go through and count exactly where I think all forty-odd subclasses fall on the relative power scale for you. There are a lot of subclasses and a lot of them have balance problems. :shrug:

probable a good idea. the paladins obvious aren't underpowered. neither are the druids, barbarians, chanters, etc. the nalpazca is kinda underwhelming, and a few o' the wizard specialists, while clear not underpowered, suffer from extreme paucity o' choices at a few levels-- as with the priests, the specialist wizards need an adjustment or two. the rest? additional complaints is o' the munchkin variety. so, hardly a lot.

 

oh, and you are correct in observing how a lot of the subclasses have balancing issues. is far too many subclasses which render the base class irrelevant.

 

bass ackwards.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I disagree that nalpazca is underwhelming, nalpazca is perfect for a defensive monk focusing more on control than doing damage. It works perfect with arcane veil + dance of death. It’s a ideal subclass for monk/wizard.

[JerekKruger]

Paladin was pretty bad in POE1. I never took it for this reason.

 

 

Paladins were great in Pillars. Perhaps not so much pre-WM1, but after that they were a really good class.

Edited December 16, 2017 by JerekKruger

[Gromnir]

 

 

Yeah, I'm really not going to get into a semantics debate or go through and count exactly where I think all forty-odd subclasses fall on the relative power scale for you. There are a lot of subclasses and a lot of them have balance problems. :shrug:

probable a good idea. the paladins obvious aren't underpowered. neither are the druids, barbarians, chanters, etc. the nalpazca is kinda underwhelming, and a few o' the wizard specialists, while clear not underpowered, suffer from extreme paucity o' choices at a few levels-- as with the priests, the specialist wizards need an adjustment or two. the rest? additional complaints is o' the munchkin variety. so, hardly a lot.

 

oh, and you are correct in observing how a lot of the subclasses have balancing issues. is far too many subclasses which render the base class irrelevant.

 

bass ackwards.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I disagree that nalpazca is underwhelming, nalpazca is perfect for a defensive monk focusing more on control than doing damage. It works perfect with arcane veil + dance of death. It’s a ideal subclass for monk/wizard.

 

fair enough.  so scratch the nalpazca from the list o' subclasses needing tlc.  a lot just became a wee bit smaller.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Erik-Dirk]

Rather than remove the penalties why not add in the base class paladin? You can also choose your role playing disposition in this case.

 

In regards to potential lack of synergy between priest/paladin perhaps one classes devotion could scale with level as happened with companions in POE1

If the Devs are worried about someone picking a Paladin -Priest combo that is diametrically opposed they can have a warning pop up that advises against it and detail why.

 

I'd rather have the freedom to make something crazy like a Skaen Priest/Kind Wayfarer than to have it blocked. 

A Priest and Skaen/Kind Wayfarer would work pretty well RP wise as well: Your an ex-slave miner that has been used as a Vessle of Skaen, you have wiped out the overlords family and joined a caravan in order to hunt down a cousin who financed the mines. Your get caught in a biawak weakening the possession then exorcised when your sole is awakened...

 

[KDubya]

Rather than remove the penalties why not add in the base class paladin? You can also choose your role playing disposition in this case.

 

In regards to potential lack of synergy between priest/paladin perhaps one classes devotion could scale with level as happened with companions in POE1

If the Devs are worried about someone picking a Paladin -Priest combo that is diametrically opposed they can have a warning pop up that advises against it and detail why.

 

I'd rather have the freedom to make something crazy like a Skaen Priest/Kind Wayfarer than to have it blocked. 

A Priest and Skaen/Kind Wayfarer would work pretty well RP wise as well: Your an ex-slave miner that has been used as a Vessle of Skaen, you have wiped out the overlords family and joined a caravan in order to hunt down a cousin who financed the mines. Your get caught in a biawak weakening the possession then exorcised when your sole is awakened...

 

 

 

I'm not sure what a 'base class Paladin' would be? All Paladins belong to one of five (?) specific Orders. Each with bonuses and penalties. Except soon the penalties will be removed.

 

When I contemplate building a Multi-class, Paladin is at the top of the list. They bring roleplaying (one of two classes that actually gain or lose power based on roleplaying choices), defensive power (Faith and Conviction and Triumphant Defense) offensive power (FoD and Sworn Enemy), team buffs (auras) and healing (Lay on Hands) plus a bunch more. And we've only seen the low level abilities. Their bonuses were more than enough to make up for any problems caused by their penalty. Not to mention that they get an additional free ability at character creation to go along with Faith and Conviction.

 

Paladins are like ketchup, they make everything better when added

 

My fear is that next there will be calls for nerfing Paladins. I'd much rather keep the interesting penalties they have now then face some future nerf bat which will do who knows what.

 

I agree with your Priest/Paladin comments that all should be possible. A Skaen/Kind Wayfarer would be rich for roleplaying and backstory. Throw in a pop up warning at creation with specifics on how their preferred reputations will conflict and let the player make the call.

[dunehunter]

 

Rather than remove the penalties why not add in the base class paladin? You can also choose your role playing disposition in this case.

 

In regards to potential lack of synergy between priest/paladin perhaps one classes devotion could scale with level as happened with companions in POE1

If the Devs are worried about someone picking a Paladin -Priest combo that is diametrically opposed they can have a warning pop up that advises against it and detail why.

 

I'd rather have the freedom to make something crazy like a Skaen Priest/Kind Wayfarer than to have it blocked. 

A Priest and Skaen/Kind Wayfarer would work pretty well RP wise as well: Your an ex-slave miner that has been used as a Vessle of Skaen, you have wiped out the overlords family and joined a caravan in order to hunt down a cousin who financed the mines. Your get caught in a biawak weakening the possession then exorcised when your sole is awakened...

 

 

 

I'm not sure what a 'base class Paladin' would be? All Paladins belong to one of five (?) specific Orders. Each with bonuses and penalties. Except soon the penalties will be removed.

 

When I contemplate building a Multi-class, Paladin is at the top of the list. They bring roleplaying (one of two classes that actually gain or lose power based on roleplaying choices), defensive power (Faith and Conviction and Triumphant Defense) offensive power (FoD and Sworn Enemy), team buffs (auras) and healing (Lay on Hands) plus a bunch more. And we've only seen the low level abilities. Their bonuses were more than enough to make up for any problems caused by their penalty. Not to mention that they get an additional free ability at character creation to go along with Faith and Conviction.

 

Paladins are like ketchup, they make everything better when added

 

My fear is that next there will be calls for nerfing Paladins. I'd much rather keep the interesting penalties they have now then face some future nerf bat which will do who knows what.

 

I agree with your Priest/Paladin comments that all should be possible. A Skaen/Kind Wayfarer would be rich for roleplaying and backstory. Throw in a pop up warning at creation with specifics on how their preferred reputations will conflict and let the player make the call.

 

 

They specially mentioned in the recent video that they like to adjust things little by little so they don't need to roll back the changes which most ppls hate.

[Erik-Dirk]

 

Rather than remove the penalties why not add in the base class paladin? You can also choose your role playing disposition in this case.

 

In regards to potential lack of synergy between priest/paladin perhaps one classes devotion could scale with level as happened with companions in POE1 

 

 

 

I'm not sure what a 'base class Paladin' would be? All Paladins belong to one of five (?) specific Orders. Each with bonuses and penalties. Except soon the penalties will be removed.

 

 

New players may be put of by the idea of selecting a penalty at character creation which is probably the reason the devs are making this change.

A base class paladin could be done two ways:

• Create another option where alignment is selected and a more generic pool of talents are available.
• Probably a more preferable option would be to take the 5 orders and split them into followers and zealots (I know better terms can probably be found) 

Zealots would be the current paladins with full bonus/penalties.

Followers would take a lesser version of the orders bonus without any penalty