I noticed that a lot of useful spells take 6 sec to cast and has 3 sec recovry time. My wizard companion can only cast one spell before combat ends, sometimes he gets interrupted or CC and the spell never goes off. The spell casting is so slow that it makes some spell useless, why would I spend 6 sec cast time + 3 sec recovery X armor multiplier to cast a spell that paralyzed enemy for 6 sec ( cipher's mental blinding ) / 10 sec (wizard's fetid caress) ?

 

It seems an offensive/CC caster is useless without heavy investment in Dex, but that's 8 attribute gone and there's not much left for Might and Int. And the weapon attack build just seems much better, 6 sec is enough for my Lv6 psyblade to swing his great sword twice dealing 100+ damage while my caster just finish an average spell. 

 

This needs to be fixed by either reduce cast time or greatly increase spell power to make spell casting more efficient. Right now the spell is good, but it isn't worth the time.

 

 

Here is an incomplete list of 6 sec cast time spells, most of them are only "average cast time" spells in POE1

 

Wizard: Slicken, Parasitic staff (used to be instant in POE1), Curse of blackened sight, Fetid caress, Rolling flames, Necrotic lance, Chill fog, Ray of fire, Delay of motion, Noxious burst, Kalakoth's minor blights, Crackling bolt, Fireball (fast in POE1), Confusion, Wondrous torment, Torrent of flame (fast in POE1), Bitter mooring, Form of helpless beast, Spirit lance ......

 

Cipher: Whisper of Treason, Eyestrike, Recall Agony, Mental Blinding, Soul ignition, Puppet Master ......

 

 

agreed!

Yup, agree

Just made a wizard in the beta and I totally agree. It feels incredibly frustrating to cast spells, to such a level that  I quit the game after the first few battles.  I much more preferred the way spells worked in the first pillars game.

Cast times really make my summoned weapon wizard/devoted fighter concept not-fun to pay.

Cast time for a spell that potentially hits tons of enemies with added effects- 3-6 seconds with 1.5 sec recovery. = 4.5 - 7.5 seconds. (But of course, there are also .5 second cast time spells and some spells with 0 recovery time.

 

Time to hit with a 2hander on a typical warrior- .7 seconds swing time, 3 seconds recovery + 50% armor penalty = 5.2 seconds. (worse for heavier armor) (worse for weapon model)

 

 

The issue with spellcasting is NOT the time but the accuracy and penetration. When they tweak the gains for power levels and spell levels... mages will be fine.

Edited November 20, 20178 yr by TheC

The cast time *is* a problem for the specific "summon weapon fighter" build.

I actually like the longer cast times, if spells are sufficiently powerful to warrant them. The whole cast time/interrupt mechanic is good, but spell damage, the length of effects and penetration need to be revised. So far, I haven't had any difficulties either with the retargetting, it works (for me) fine.

 

My 2 cents

The numbers for both standard and empowered spells is way too low, that's the issue not the casting times themselves which I think makes the combat interesting, protecting your casters and interrupting the enemy ones becomes an actual concern but only if the pay-off for such long casting times are kept up. 

Can you speed up casting by multiclassing? In PoE 1 Frenzy and Bloodlust sped up spell recovery time... could be other combinations in PoE 2.

 

What about the PoE 1 tactic of casting while in stealth/invisible? Then you don't break stealth until the spell is actually cast, right? So even if + attack speed only improves recovery time, your next spell comes out faster.... Meanwhile, your tanky characters are absorbing the enemies' per-encounter abilities and reducing mobs. So tanking still has a role even if engagement is less powerful?

 

Illusionist has that instant mirror image when first attacked too. 

Part of the problem is that you can't use the autopause for spell complete and spell almost done since they go off on every ability and attack. Hopefully when that's fixed it'll be easier to aim spells and thus feel better when playing with long spells.

 

Also, the new spell cast times seem to screw over ciphers, since they no longer have "Oh ****" buttons.

I would be okay with long cast times if they were accompanied by long effect times but they usually aren't.  Having a spell last 10 seconds when it took 6 to cast is stupid.  

Cast time for a spell that potentially hits tons of enemies with added effects- 3-6 seconds with 1.5 sec recovery. = 4.5 - 7.5 seconds. (But of course, there are also .5 second cast time spells and some spells with 0 recovery time.

 

Time to hit with a 2hander on a typical warrior- .7 seconds swing time, 3 seconds recovery + 50% armor penalty = 5.2 seconds. (worse for heavier armor) (worse for weapon model)

 

 

The issue with spellcasting is NOT the time but the accuracy and penetration. When they tweak the gains for power levels and spell levels... mages will be fine.

 

This. I liked that in IE games the spells too had often long cast times but their impact on combat was always noticable. Now in PoE2 the spell power of many of the spells is not good enough to justify the hassle to cast them and get them through the various defenses. 

Edited November 21, 20178 yr by Tanred

Tested it, yes, you don't emerge from stealth until the spell is finished being cast. And many spells can be cast without leaving stealth. Including buffs, weapons summons, and even the priest's Seal spells.

 

Also, most defensive self-buffs get cast extremely quickly (0.4 seconds). So the obvious implication is buff yourself first so you don't get interrupted, then cast... sure it's a slower playstyle but I don't mind. 

 

On casting spells faster:

 

There's a potion that grants +50% action speed. The beta's fighter companion has two of them.

 

Enchantment spells Fleet Feet and Alacrity of Motion both add +5 dex, but I guess they don't stack? +15% action speed... too bad all the level 1 and 2 enchantment spells are self-buffs. Still not a lot by itself. Not enough to make up for the 20% addition to recovery time for non-enchantment wizard spells.

 

Barbarian Frenzy adds +25% action speed and Bloodlust adds +20% per kill. Monks get +20% action speed with Swift Strikes, it's not clear whether the update to Swift Strikes adds another 20% but I doubt it. Either one seems to go well with Enchanter if you're going to self-buff. Haven't tried out the Evoker yet but if their special ability procs often enough a Barbarian - Evoker could be best for fast casting offensive spells.

 

All the scrolls I've seen so far have a very short casting time---1.3 seconds for Binding Web scroll, compared more than 6 seconds for Wizard to cast Binding Web. It would be hilarious if one of the best casters were a Barbarian-Monk speed scroll and item user (though Barbarian-Rogue would be better for damage scrolls)?.... 

Edited November 21, 20178 yr by SaruNi

If you guys haven't seen elsewhere, apparently most one-handed melee have been accidentally set at a higher attack speed than they should have been, which makes many melee fighters much more powerful than they should be, leaving casters in the dust. This is will be fixed in the next patch.

Edited November 21, 20178 yr by cheesevillain

Yes, let's wait an see how that turns out. The difference between 3 secs recovery (should be) and 1 sec recovery (like it's now) is huge.

Edited November 21, 20178 yr by Boeroer

I've just tried running a party without a Wizard and guess what? Game was a lot easier. If nothing else because I didn't have a completely useless party member either getting interrupted all the time, or casting one single spell before the encounter was over, which hit nobody because it had low Accuracy.

 

As with many other things, with casters too I believe the devs correctly identified the issues from the first game, but unfortunately applied several fixes for the same issue, thus moving too far in the opposite direction.

 

A few suggestions that have been scattered in other threads and I think would work:

 

• Casting times should be slightly shorter across the board. I don't mind their being longer than PoE's in general, but 6 seconds is a drag.
• Buffs should be fast cast (those that aren't already.) For this purpose, summoned weapons should count as buffs.
• Spells should be able to graze right off the bat. Damage spell would graze like weapons do; CC spells would last shorter and apply a lower-ranking CC (e.g. stuck instead of paralyzed.)
• All casters should have access to spells that give Concentration from level 1. It could be one spell every two levels with increased duration and ancillary effects as we progress through the level ladder. These would count as buffs and should be fast cast or insta-cast.
• Casters with no access to Grimoires should be given more spells (e.g. 1 extra spell per level) to pick to make up for it and encourage a bit more experimentation. Right now you're forced into picking the must-have spells as there's no room for any other.

 

This should suffice; I'd rather experiment with spell grazes before suggesting that spells be given some inherent Accuracy bonus again (and if I did, I'd advocate for a smaller bonus than it was in PoE.)

Edited November 21, 20178 yr by AndreaColombo

I also think that it's ok to remove graze from weapon attacks if you are a martial noob. But when I think about a fireball and how it's supposed to hit the ground and explodes... at least those AoE spells should always have graze. It's silly that it's hit or miss with them. Same with grenades/bombs and so on.

Edited November 21, 20178 yr by Boeroer

Considering casters didn't get any talents, I feel like some of the issues with caster's at the moment could be solved with talents.  In the same way a fighter get's weapon specializations, why can't a wizard get spell school improvements?  "Increased accuracy with evocation spells"  or "Evocation spells can graze" or  "Evocation spells have a 20% reduced recovery time".  Perhaps talents that give concentration in some way or another, like "casting protection spells grants the caster concentration".  There are surely tons of less generic ideas that could be used as well.

 

Also, by using talents you can limit what they can do.  You don't want hard CC to be able to graze?  Then just don't give a talent option for that to happen with CC schools.

 

Order it in a way so they can't just take all of the above, but that they still have room for improvement and specialization. 

I remember a tumblr post from Josh saying some spells apply different status effects on a graze, e.g., Whisper of Treason grazes to a Confuse effect. Has anybody seen these happen?

I remember a tumblr post from Josh saying some spells apply different status effects on a graze, e.g., Whisper of Treason grazes to a Confuse effect. Has anybody seen these happen?

 

I remember that post too, but now it's not happening. Maybe this will be added later to replace the POE1 graze system.

Tested it, yes, you don't emerge from stealth until the spell is finished being cast. And many spells can be cast without leaving stealth. Including buffs, weapons summons, and even the priest's Seal spells.

 

Also, most defensive self-buffs get cast extremely quickly (0.4 seconds). So the obvious implication is buff yourself first so you don't get interrupted, then cast... sure it's a slower playstyle but I don't mind. 

 

On casting spells faster:

 

There's a potion that grants +50% action speed. The beta's fighter companion has two of them.

 

Enchantment spells Fleet Feet and Alacrity of Motion both add +5 dex, but I guess they don't stack? +15% action speed... too bad all the level 1 and 2 enchantment spells are self-buffs. Still not a lot by itself. Not enough to make up for the 20% addition to recovery time for non-enchantment wizard spells.

 

Barbarian Frenzy adds +25% action speed and Bloodlust adds +20% per kill. Monks get +20% action speed with Swift Strikes, it's not clear whether the update to Swift Strikes adds another 20% but I doubt it. Either one seems to go well with Enchanter if you're going to self-buff. Haven't tried out the Evoker yet but if their special ability procs often enough a Barbarian - Evoker could be best for fast casting offensive spells.

 

All the scrolls I've seen so far have a very short casting time---1.3 seconds for Binding Web scroll, compared more than 6 seconds for Wizard to cast Binding Web. It would be hilarious if one of the best casters were a Barbarian-Monk speed scroll and item user (though Barbarian-Rogue would be better for damage scrolls)?.... 

 

The problem is by the time you're done casting all your buffs you get to cast like one more spell and then spend the rest of the combat auto attacking.

This is an issue without a one size fits all answer. Spells need an across the board rebalancing. Cipher powers especially are all kinds of messed up right now; many of them have cast + recovery times equal to their durations, plus the lack of grazing hurts ciphers doubly, since they miss while building focus then miss again while casting. Net result is that most spellcasters can dump their whole spell books in the time it takes a cipher to land one or two effects.

 

I've also had a weird thing happen sometimes where the cipher power rebounds and hits.my caster instead of the target. Not sure what causes that.

Spells need an across the board rebalancing. Cipher powers especially are all kinds of messed up right now; many of them have cast + recovery times equal to their durations, plus the lack of grazing hurts ciphers doubly, since they miss while building focus then miss again while casting.

So true.

 

I'm deeply disappointed by the current state of ciphers tbh. After having 4 out of 5 MCs being ciphers in PoE1, I must say that my favorite playstyle of highdps + hard cc ciphers is pointless in Deadfire, because of:

- doubled and in some cases quadrupled cast durations

- lack of reliability. In PoE1 if you had acc by 15 higher than your target's defense - you could be sure that your cc will land and you will disable the enemy completely. While in Deadfire lack of grazes on spellcasts + might/dexterity/intellect resistances severely devalue hard cc powers. Now couple this with the already mentioned slow casting times, and you get to the point where you'd be better straight auto-attacking.

 

P.S. Here are few power casting + recovery durations for reference:

 

 

P.P.S. It's funny now how I was finding Ringleader cast time being simply not worth it, and as result have used it only 3 times tops across all the runs.

Edited November 24, 20178 yr by MaxQuest

Yeah, I feel like currently you have to pick either a DPS or CC cipher build, you can't do both any more (and you can't really do much CC at all). Partly it's the greatly restricted power selection -- with only one power slot per level and the fact that some of those slots have to go for supporting passives (not to mention having to choose between biting and draining whip), you just have a really restricted "spell book."

 

It's also a lot harder to gain focus now than it used to be (partly due to the grazing mechanics, partly the armor penetration system, partly the absence of the general open talents like marksman and gunner etc). 

 

But even once you get focus there's not much to use it on. Mental Binding has a cast time of six seconds, a recovery time of three seconds, and a duration of . .  . six seconds. You're functionally paralyzing yourself more by casting it than you are the target.