Josh Sawyer's tweets and teasers

[injurai]

Proficiency points perhaps, but not talents.

 

 

Not sure what my opinions are on the frequency. Delaying gives you more time to make decisions, while more frequent ones allow you to shift around a bit as needed. You can delay spending points in Deadfire right?

As far as I know u cannot delay any point in beta, talent, proficiency, skill point, all no.

 

 

For a beta it makes sense to force someone to spend their points, otherwise they may report some odd experiences. But I feel the player should be left to spend points at their discretion. Of course the former argument applies to balancing the release builds as well. This one might have to be a mod.

[theBalthazar]

There is an other point of view.

 

Indeed, if you can increase your proficiency, there is a risk of stuck on this weapon and stay only soulbound/unique of this kind of weapon.

 

But also, sorry but, there is the pleasure of the build.

 

I choose 5 finals weapon for my 5 party members, and I increase proficiency in fonction. 5x2 weapons is already a big number. And nobody prevents to use a spare weapon with this system (what I did already in POE1 ... without equal proficiencies...)

 

All 4 levels : 7 proficiencies points. 2 at the start + 5 each 4 levels. In my system 3 points for a fully upgraded proficiency : so 3x2 = 6. (So 6 VS 7, one point left) Two proficiency is WIDELY enough for 99 % of players.

 

So... variation is already here. And like Boeroer said, there is respec possibility. For me it is more interresting to create a perfect build. There is more replayability.

 

If in NWN 2, all was available directly like proficiencies, not sure not sure I would have spent so much time trying it.

 

Increase a value is a powerful mental bias in RPG (positive in a sense). Not using it for proficiency is, in my opinion, a mistake.

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

Profiency systems work if you have enough teammates to cover most if not all weapon types. For example Wizardry 8 with a 6 man team plus 2 NPCs did a fine job in that regard. Limiting the team to 5 makes it way more frustrating when you find the Pollaxe that rocks...

Not a problem for people like me who always switch party members. There were 11 companions + the player character in PoE1, so I had plenty of use for most of the good weapons I found. I'll do the same in PoE2.

Good point. I found I had a ton of non-usable weapons in PoE1 by end game because of my build choices. But I didn’t mind it as it did leave open many more runs for use of those extra weapons.

[Archaven]

 

Profiency systems work if you have enough teammates to cover most if not all weapon types. For example Wizardry 8 with a 6 man team plus 2 NPCs did a fine job in that regard. Limiting the team to 5 makes it way more frustrating when you find the Pollaxe that rocks...

 

Not a problem for people like me who always switch party members.  There were 11 companions + the player character in PoE1, so I had plenty of use for most of the good weapons I found.  I'll do the same in PoE2.

 

 

good for you but not everyone. i seems to get discouraged switching party members due to the level gap in xp gain. if not mistaken to maintain everyone at the same level by party switching is quite a tedium. plus i like the idea of different party combinations in different  playthrough as part of replayability.

[Wormerine]

good for you but not everyone. i seems to get discouraged switching party members due to the level gap in xp gain. if not mistaken to maintain everyone at the same level by party switching is quite a tedium. plus i like the idea of different party combinations in different  playthrough as part of replayability.

Companions in your keep still gained XP, no? I remember leveling multiple levels at once after picking up companions from Stronghold.

[Juodas Varnas]

 

good for you but not everyone. i seems to get discouraged switching party members due to the level gap in xp gain. if not mistaken to maintain everyone at the same level by party switching is quite a tedium. plus i like the idea of different party combinations in different  playthrough as part of replayability.

Companions in your keep still gained XP, no? I remember leveling multiple levels at once after picking up companions from Stronghold.

 

Yeh, they gained a decreased percentage of XP you gained.

 

But they could also gain XP from the stronghold adventures (and if i recall correctly, my Pallegina, whom i did not like one bit and used as a Stronghold Adventure bot, ended up outleveling my Watcher by like half-a-level).

[Mannock]

I agree that it can be an "Awww man!" moment when you find a cool weapon that nobody of your party is proficienct with (if it's a more impactful sort of proficiency). That's why I find retraining useful. On the other hand those things made me replay BG and Icewind Dale.

Not everything needs to be a given instant and easy choice.

 

For example, Carsomyr +5 in BG2. You basically needed to be a Paladin to wield it or have Keldorn wield it for you. It was a very powerful weapon but you had to make some strategic choices to be able to put it to use by your party. That was an awesome aspect of the game.

 

Games like PoE2 shouldn't be catered to people who want instant gratification. That's moving away from the essence of the sub genre that this game belongs to.

[AndreaColombo]

But those strategic choices could only be made with foreknowledge of the weapon’s characteristics and the fact it was there. If you specced your Paladin to use long swords and ran into Carsomyr, you felt like the game punished you for lacking meta knowledge. At that point you either had to restart the game from the beginning (which isn’t pleasant when you want to continue with the story) or keep going with what you knew was a subpar character for no fault of yours. That’s unfair and frustrating.

Edited February 19, 2018 by AndreaColombo

[Mannock]

But those strategic choices could only be made with foreknowledge of the weapon’s characteristics and the fact it was there. If you specced your Paladin to use long swords and ran into Carsomyr, you felt like the game punished you for lacking meta knowledge. At that point you either had to restart the game from the beginning (which isn’t pleasant when you want to continue with the story) or keep going with what you knew was a subpar character for no fault of yours. That’s unfair and frustrating.

I can't say I really have sympathy for your point of view. You are basically saying you want everything and all, without consequence. The plague of instant gratification.

 

So I say, yes, the game should punish you. It would be pure luck in BG2 if you made a character that was able to wield Carsomyr +5 in your first playthrough. But even so, the game was kind of nice to you, in that you could recruit Keldorn to wield the weapon for you. But that meant of course you had to pick Keldorn as a companion instead of someone else (strategic choice).

 

Point being; No, you can't have everything. That's what makes a game like this meaningful and interesting in the long run.

[Boeroer]

But those strategic choices could only be made with foreknowledge of the weapon’s characteristics and the fact it was there. If you specced your Paladin to use long swords and ran into Carsomyr, you felt like the game punished you for lacking meta knowledge. At that point you either had to restart the game from the beginning (which isn’t pleasant when you want to continue with the story) or keep going with what you knew was a subpar character for no fault of yours. That’s unfair and frustrating.

 

Edit: Hey! I photoshopped this all by myself AndreaC - cut me some slack and give me a like!

Edited February 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Carsomyr +5 was a reason for me to drop the current run and restart with a paladin. In which part was that +5 two hander for evil paladins you could find in some pile of junk? Same thing basically.

 

I also restarted in Icewind Dale once I found that spear and the halberd I forgot the names of. 

 

However - I had the time to do that. Nowadays most fans of CRPGs are not teenagers anymore and maybe they can't afford to replay a game over and over again. So retraining seems to be a sensible solution for those people without watering down the mechanics too much.

[Mannock]

Carsomyr +5 was a reason for me to drop the current run and restart with a paladin. In which part was that +5 two hander for evil paladins you could find in some pile of junk? Same thing basically.

 

I also restarted in Icewind Dale once I found that spear and the halberd I forgot the names of. 

 

However - I had the time to do that. Nowadays most fans of CRPGs are not teenagers anymore and maybe they can't afford to replay a game over and over again. So retraining seems to be a sensible solution for those people without watering down the mechanics too much.

I have full sympathy for having a limited numbers of hours for gaming. It's like that for me too. But knowing what weapon is best is something you won't know until when you've finished the game anyway (and maybe not even then if you haven't found every weapon in the game).

 

In my opinion people need to settle with the thought of not being able to have everything during a single playthrough.

[Lord_Mord]

 

Nowadays most fans of CRPGs are not teenagers anymore and maybe they can't afford to replay a game over and over again.

 

I don't know, if there are more people like me, but I choose my games very carefully and if I found one that I like, I play it over and over again, sometimes for years, as I don't have much time and often don't touch it for weeks. My last BG playthrough (together with my wife) lasted 2 years (We installed every possible mod, that wasn't cheesy). Since PoE came out, I didn't play anything else and I like it that way. What I expect from PoE2 is even more content and a high replayability (Which is part of the reason, why I will always prefer variety to balancing). I have no interest in other than IE-style games and that is unlikely to change.

[Boeroer]

I have full sympathy for having a limited numbers of hours for gaming. It's like that for me too. But knowing what weapon is best is something you won't know until when you've finished the game anyway (and maybe not even then if you haven't found every weapon in the game).

 

In my opinion people need to settle with the thought of not being able to have everything during a single playthrough.

Yes, but I can also understand the frustration once you discover that the designers of the game put a +5 great sword in it but not a +5 sword. So either retraining or balancing the unique weapons better (so every proficiency has unique weapon of somewhat equal power) to counter that frustration.

 

I personally have no problem with a C+5S (Carsomyr+5-Situation ), but I can understand others who have. And that also means that I can accept solutions that are not necessary for me, but may bring more joy to others playing that game.

 

I don't retrain a lot in PoE actually. But I'm glad you can. At the same time I don't like the proficiency system in Deadfire because it's too shallow and doesn't need any commitment.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

 

Nowadays most fans of CRPGs are not teenagers anymore and maybe they can't afford to replay a game over and over again.

 

I don't know, if there are more people like me, but I choose my games very carefully and if I found one that I like, I play it over and over again, sometimes for years, as I don't have much time and often don't touch it for weeks. My last BG playthrough (together with my wife) lasted 2 years (We installed every possible mod, that wasn't cheesy). Since PoE came out, I didn't play anything else and I like it that way. What I expect from PoE2 is even more content and a high replayability (Which is part of the reason, why I will always prefer variety to balancing). I have no interest in other than IE-style games and that is unlikely to change.

 

That's why I said "maybe". I know there will be a lot of examples where this is not the case. But the fans of BG and BGII and such are grown ups or even old geezers nowadays (look at me ). So I guess it's a fairly educaded guess that most people who play CRPGs nowadays have less time than they had when they were young - and at the same time thay maybe don't want to restrict themselves to one game like you (and I as well) do.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

But those strategic choices could only be made with foreknowledge of the weapon’s characteristics and the fact it was there. If you specced your Paladin to use long swords and ran into Carsomyr, you felt like the game punished you for lacking meta knowledge. At that point you either had to restart the game from the beginning (which isn’t pleasant when you want to continue with the story) or keep going with what you knew was a subpar character for no fault of yours. That’s unfair and frustrating.

I can't say I really have sympathy for your point of view. You are basically saying you want everything and all, without consequence. The plague of instant gratification.

 

So I say, yes, the game should punish you. It would be pure luck in BG2 if you made a character that was able to wield Carsomyr +5 in your first playthrough. But even so, the game was kind of nice to you, in that you could recruit Keldorn to wield the weapon for you. But that meant of course you had to pick Keldorn as a companion instead of someone else (strategic choice).

 

Point being; No, you can't have everything. That's what makes a game like this meaningful and interesting in the long run.

 

 

How is it that when someone says "you are basically saying", what follows is some outlandish point of view that has nothing to do with what anyone else has said?

[DexGames]

Restrictions are already there in Deadfire :

• Certain Armors are Vailian, Huana... Only.
• Soulbound Weapons are Classes Restricted. [Dagger in Backer Beta]

In a sense, the "Carsomyr Case" is already there.

So I don't see why Weapon Proficiencies don't follow the same Path / Logic.

Edited February 19, 2018 by DexGames

[Boeroer]

Good point

[Mannock]

Restrictions are already there in Deadfire :

• Certain Armors are Vailian, Huana... Only.
• Soulbound Weapons are Classes Restricted. [Dagger in Backer Beta]

In a sense, the "Carsomyr Case" is already there.

 

That's music to my ears.

 

So I don't see why Weapon Proficiencies don't follow the same Path / Logic.

Well, since it's been proven that all proficieny slots will easily be filled by the party, why have proficencies to begin with? Why have choices when they don't matter?

 

I think that is the point of the critique.

[Boeroer]

A side effect of that many proficiencies (1 every third level) is: of what use is the increased number of proficiencies the Black Jacket has?

Edited February 19, 2018 by Boeroer

[Mannock]

A side effect of that many proficiencies (1 every third level) is: of what use is the increased number of proficiencies the Black Jacket has?

Indeed.

 

I'd rather see a system where you can put several points of proficiency into a certain weapon type (3 or 5 points in total for example), which would increase your bonuses with the specific type of weapon. That way you wouldn't be proficient with all weapons during a playthrough and the Black Jacket class proficiency bonus would be meaningful.

[Boeroer]

That's exactly what Balthazar and I have mentioned before.

[DexGames]

Well, since it's been proven that all proficieny slots will easily be filled by the party, why have proficencies to begin with? Why have choices when they don't matter?

 

I think that is the point of the critique. 

 

 

Well yeah, that's what I'm wondering too ! 

That's why I showed how the current Proficiency System would end in previous post.

 

Yup Mannock, I've been calling for Ranks & Commitment to certain Weapons since the System has been revealed.

Then Josh decided to go from picking a proficiency every 1/4 Level, to 1/3 Level.   

Edited February 19, 2018 by DexGames

[theBalthazar]

Yes ! With a better system you can do :

 

Black Jacket

 

- Increase the bonus with the first point, and decrease the malus directly with the second point. (Two points spend rather than three (see my system previously))

 

Or/and, if we are crazy (because black jacket is actually one of the worst subclass) :

 

- Remove malus of a proficiency fully upgraded.

 

------

 

Normal Character

1 Acqusition (Like now in Beta 1-3)

2 Increase the bonus (Variable)

3 Decrease the malus (/2 ?)

 

Black Jacket

1 Acquisition of the proficiency. Bonus already increased.

2 Malus totally supressed.

 

With that, interrest of the poor black jacket is tenfolded. ^^ (It will never shine next to the Devoted otherwise ... : p)

Edited February 19, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

But then I ask myself why the Devoted is called Devoted if he's worse than the Black Jacket with his chosen weapon.

Edited February 19, 2018 by Boeroer