I never finished Pillars of Eternity.

[vetiver]

The first game was great. I have plenty of good memories from it, but I also remember the game-breaking bug at the castle ground. It's worth replaying the game.

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

Yeah, in NWN a +2 in Hit and Damage doesn't mean much for a low ac character with 2 attacks per round and the loss of spell slots and spell DC is damning. Anything outside of pumping Intelligence as much as you can is a waste for a NWN wizard because spells will be superior than melee 99% of the time. And let's not even get into how you couldn't pick up a sword or put on armor without spending a once every 3 level resource.

 

Comparatively in PoE my Wizard's spell casting improves with every stat besides Constitution. Might increases damage, Dexterity increases casting speed, Intellect increases AoE and Duration, Perception increases interrupt and accuracy, and Resolve improves concentration. Resolve is dumpable because concentration wasn't implemented very well, but otherwise every stat improves my Wizard's survivability and/or spellcasting prowess. If you want to argue that PoE stats are small in factor that's fair, but they allow more choice in theory than D&D's pump your main stat or suck.

 

This is an illusion, though.

Wizards pump INT here just as they do in D&D.  Look at the build lists and look at how many Wizard builds involve maxed or at least strong INT scores.  Look at how many Fighter builds involve maxed or at least strong MIG scores.

 

No, that does not demonstrate it's an illusion. The attribute design was intended to make multiple possible builds be viable. The fact that many player's Wizard builds involve high Int does not disprove that. It only shows that a high Int Wizard is what many players conceive of as a "strong" Wizard character. What would demonstrate it is an illusion is several playthroughs using a low Int (but otherwise well-designed) Wizard, which all show it is a piss-poor non-viable character.

 

 

Yes, and a low INT Wizard (just as a low INT virtually anything) is a piss poor non-viable character in Pillars.  Compare a character with minimum INT to a character with maximum INT and tell me there's not a massive gulf in strength and usability.  INT controls too many core elements to be anything but a god stat for basically every character (doubly so for characters who use a lot of spells... such as Wizards!)  A Wizard with low INT will have spells which are effectively single-target when they should have a small AOE, will have DOT's and debuffs that last a couple of seconds when they should last several, will not be able to substantially benefit from short-term buffs like Eldritch Aim, etc.

 

 

I swear, time after time, all these people acting like Pillars doesn't have god stats and dump stats just must not have ever really paid any attention to the system or tried a variety of builds.  Once you start doing that it becomes immediately obvious that Might and Intelligence are the best stats, and stats which EVERY class and role wants.  It's absolutely no different from classes having assigned primary attributes in D&D.  It just gives the illusion otherwise.

[tinysalamander]

Counter example: buffer has no need for Might.

[Ninjamestari]

I swear, time after time, all these people acting like Pillars doesn't have god stats and dump stats just must not have ever really paid any attention to the system or tried a variety of builds.  Once you start doing that it becomes immediately obvious that Might and Intelligence are the best stats, and stats which EVERY class and role wants.  It's absolutely no different from classes having assigned primary attributes in D&D.  It just gives the illusion otherwise.

If they act like mindless fanbois and think like mindless fanbois, they must be mindless fanbois. They are the bane of every forum and every single game-company. The worst mistakes happen when devs start listening to the echo-chamber of these fanbois, as then they will completely lose sight of reality. Every retarded change in the name of 'balance', every stupid design choice aimed at securing equality of outcome regardless of player choice, every single NPC designed to placate SJWs is the result of a game-developer listening to their fanbois. Take the current predicament of Bioware as an example. Fanbois are a cancer, they are people who aren't genuinely interested in the ideals or products they're 'supporting', fanbois are zealous parasites, trying to attach themselves to what they on some level perceive as a powerful unified group, and any open institution that doesn't recognize them for what they are will suffer because of them. Fanbois are the gaming culture variants of fundamentalists, these are the very same kind of people who poison religious groups, start holy wars and are overall responsible for most of the crap in society.

[gogocactus]

Man, I hope that you're speaking out against 'fanboys' in general there,rather than against everyone on this subforum who disagrees with you. Because generally speaking, the people on this subforum are cool, have the best interests of the game at heart and form a friendly, respectful community. You're part of it too, you know .

 

<edit> And if some people here feel the need to defend PoE's state system, it might just so be that they do so because they genuinely find it to their liking, it doesn't necessarily make them fanboys, or too inexperienced with game design, or too inexperienced with a variety of builds, etc. Let's focus on each other's arguments here, rather than disqualifying each other with these broad statements.

Edited April 19, 2017 by gogocactus

[Ninjamestari]

Man, I hope that you're speaking in general there. Because generally speaking, the people on this subforum are cool, have the best interests of the game at heart and form a friendly, respectful community.

 

Yeah, there are not many serious fanbois here, I kinda went on a rant there. Sorry about that. Still, many of the 'defendant' arguments revolve around pretending that the current system is something that it is not, min-maxing being a prime example. I can understand and respect the "I personally like this for these reasons" argument, and hell I even can agree with those occasionally, which is scary considering how detrimental the current system is to my personal enjoyment to the game, but these blatantly dishonest claims that the current system isn't just as much a min-max hell as AD&D in the infinity games was don't really deserve a single moment of consideration, nor do they deserve any respect.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[rjshae]

I held off on finishing my last playthrough because I didn't want to undergo the final now-pointless boss battle again. I wonder if that means I won't be able to import that character into PoE2?

[Ninjamestari]

I held off on finishing my last playthrough because I didn't want to undergo the final now-pointless boss battle again. I wonder if that means I won't be able to import that character into PoE2?

 

Care to elaborate a little? I mean, I haven't even played that far into the game yet and I probably never will, but I'm just curious on what makes the boss battle "now-pointless"? Did something happen to somehow turn it pointless or is there something inherently wrong with the battle itself?

[rjshae]

 

 

 

Yeah, in NWN a +2 in Hit and Damage doesn't mean much for a low ac character with 2 attacks per round and the loss of spell slots and spell DC is damning. Anything outside of pumping Intelligence as much as you can is a waste for a NWN wizard because spells will be superior than melee 99% of the time. And let's not even get into how you couldn't pick up a sword or put on armor without spending a once every 3 level resource.

 

Comparatively in PoE my Wizard's spell casting improves with every stat besides Constitution. Might increases damage, Dexterity increases casting speed, Intellect increases AoE and Duration, Perception increases interrupt and accuracy, and Resolve improves concentration. Resolve is dumpable because concentration wasn't implemented very well, but otherwise every stat improves my Wizard's survivability and/or spellcasting prowess. If you want to argue that PoE stats are small in factor that's fair, but they allow more choice in theory than D&D's pump your main stat or suck.

 

This is an illusion, though.

Wizards pump INT here just as they do in D&D.  Look at the build lists and look at how many Wizard builds involve maxed or at least strong INT scores.  Look at how many Fighter builds involve maxed or at least strong MIG scores.

 

No, that does not demonstrate it's an illusion. The attribute design was intended to make multiple possible builds be viable. The fact that many player's Wizard builds involve high Int does not disprove that. It only shows that a high Int Wizard is what many players conceive of as a "strong" Wizard character. What would demonstrate it is an illusion is several playthroughs using a low Int (but otherwise well-designed) Wizard, which all show it is a piss-poor non-viable character.

 

 

Yes, and a low INT Wizard (just as a low INT virtually anything) is a piss poor non-viable character in Pillars.  Compare a character with minimum INT to a character with maximum INT and tell me there's not a massive gulf in strength and usability.  INT controls too many core elements to be anything but a god stat for basically every character (doubly so for characters who use a lot of spells... such as Wizards!)  A Wizard with low INT will have spells which are effectively single-target when they should have a small AOE, will have DOT's and debuffs that last a couple of seconds when they should last several, will not be able to substantially benefit from short-term buffs like Eldritch Aim, etc.

 

I swear, time after time, all these people acting like Pillars doesn't have god stats and dump stats just must not have ever really paid any attention to the system or tried a variety of builds.  Once you start doing that it becomes immediately obvious that Might and Intelligence are the best stats, and stats which EVERY class and role wants.  It's absolutely no different from classes having assigned primary attributes in D&D.  It just gives the illusion otherwise.

 

It may help if you looked at this issue from a different angle. The point of the attributes system in PoE is to allow multiple different builds to be viable. That does not mean that every attribute needs to be equally weighty to each class. Indeed, every class has a few slightly more favorable attributes and a few less favorable. So what? The point is you can still build a decent character even if you don't max out those favored attributes. Regardless of whether Might and Int are the marginally better stats for a Wizard, they do not limit the types of builds you can have. A player can build a playable Wizard with average to sub-par Might and Int, if they want to focus on a different play style. Does that make sense?

 

If you want a properly balanced attribute system, you play Champions and accept the extra complexity. It isn't needed for PoE.

[Ninjamestari]

 

It may help if you looked at this issue from a different angle. The point of the attributes system in PoE is to allow multiple different builds to be viable. That does not mean that every attribute needs to be equally weighty to each class. Indeed, every class has a few slightly more favorable attributes and a few less favorable. So what? The point is you can still build a decent character even if you don't max out those favored attributes. Regardless of whether Might and Int are the marginally better stats for a Wizard, they do not limit the types of builds you can have. A player can build a playable Wizard with average to sub-par Might and Int, if they want to focus on a different play style. Does that make sense?

 

If you want a properly balanced attribute system, you play Champions and accept the extra complexity. It isn't needed for PoE.

 

 

You cannot allow mutliple different builds simply through a system, you need to hone the details for that, and the PoE stat system doesn't affect this at all. The problem with D&D stats is not with the stat 'system', it is with the way individual powers and abilities and classes function. For example, a sorceror doesn't need wisdom for anything, hardly any int (unless for some specific reasons) and absolutely no strength at all. Mostly they just need Charisma, Constitution and Dexterity being helpful. What if you made it so that Strength reduces spell-failure from armor, Intelligence increases the number of spells you can learn and gave the sorceror certain spells that are so powerful that you must pass difficult will saves just to cast them? Suddenly all attributes are useful and allow, a wide variety of builds are enabled with natural benefits to certain multiclass combos depending on which abilities you focus on and absolutely no violation of an instinctual understanding of how these character traits work has happened.

 

My point is, trying to solve a complicated problem with a system is trying to take a shortcut where none exist; it will never lead to good results.

Edited April 19, 2017 by Ninjamestari

[HooAmEye]

What owuld you suggest then?

Edited April 19, 2017 by HooAmEye

[PizzaSHARK]

 

 

 

 

Yeah, in NWN a +2 in Hit and Damage doesn't mean much for a low ac character with 2 attacks per round and the loss of spell slots and spell DC is damning. Anything outside of pumping Intelligence as much as you can is a waste for a NWN wizard because spells will be superior than melee 99% of the time. And let's not even get into how you couldn't pick up a sword or put on armor without spending a once every 3 level resource.

 

Comparatively in PoE my Wizard's spell casting improves with every stat besides Constitution. Might increases damage, Dexterity increases casting speed, Intellect increases AoE and Duration, Perception increases interrupt and accuracy, and Resolve improves concentration. Resolve is dumpable because concentration wasn't implemented very well, but otherwise every stat improves my Wizard's survivability and/or spellcasting prowess. If you want to argue that PoE stats are small in factor that's fair, but they allow more choice in theory than D&D's pump your main stat or suck.

 

This is an illusion, though.

Wizards pump INT here just as they do in D&D.  Look at the build lists and look at how many Wizard builds involve maxed or at least strong INT scores.  Look at how many Fighter builds involve maxed or at least strong MIG scores.

 

No, that does not demonstrate it's an illusion. The attribute design was intended to make multiple possible builds be viable. The fact that many player's Wizard builds involve high Int does not disprove that. It only shows that a high Int Wizard is what many players conceive of as a "strong" Wizard character. What would demonstrate it is an illusion is several playthroughs using a low Int (but otherwise well-designed) Wizard, which all show it is a piss-poor non-viable character.

 

 

Yes, and a low INT Wizard (just as a low INT virtually anything) is a piss poor non-viable character in Pillars.  Compare a character with minimum INT to a character with maximum INT and tell me there's not a massive gulf in strength and usability.  INT controls too many core elements to be anything but a god stat for basically every character (doubly so for characters who use a lot of spells... such as Wizards!)  A Wizard with low INT will have spells which are effectively single-target when they should have a small AOE, will have DOT's and debuffs that last a couple of seconds when they should last several, will not be able to substantially benefit from short-term buffs like Eldritch Aim, etc.

 

I swear, time after time, all these people acting like Pillars doesn't have god stats and dump stats just must not have ever really paid any attention to the system or tried a variety of builds.  Once you start doing that it becomes immediately obvious that Might and Intelligence are the best stats, and stats which EVERY class and role wants.  It's absolutely no different from classes having assigned primary attributes in D&D.  It just gives the illusion otherwise.

 

It may help if you looked at this issue from a different angle. The point of the attributes system in PoE is to allow multiple different builds to be viable. That does not mean that every attribute needs to be equally weighty to each class. Indeed, every class has a few slightly more favorable attributes and a few less favorable. So what? The point is you can still build a decent character even if you don't max out those favored attributes. Regardless of whether Might and Int are the marginally better stats for a Wizard, they do not limit the types of builds you can have. A player can build a playable Wizard with average to sub-par Might and Int, if they want to focus on a different play style. Does that make sense?

 

If you want a properly balanced attribute system, you play Champions and accept the extra complexity. It isn't needed for PoE.

 

 

 

Except you don't have multiple builds, you have one build that is "viable", with a small degree of flexibility, and the rest are all frankly sub-par - equivalent to a Pathfinder Fighter playing with 10 STR and 20 DEX and not taking Weapon Finesse, dipping into Unchained Rogue for DEX to damage, etc.  You can play that way, but please don't lie and act like it's viable.

 

Pillars doesn't allow "multiple different builds."  It allows exactly one good build (high MIG and INT) and lots of mediocre builds (not high MIG and INT.)  Literally every single class in the entire game wants and benefits from having high Might and high Intelligence, even Fighters.  Putting points into Resolve and Constitution are mostly wasted.  Perception and Dexterity are nice to have where affordable.

 

Again - it seems like the only people that actually think Pillars' system really does allow for "multiple [viable] different builds" are people that haven't bothered to actually examine the game's mechanics.  It gives the illusion of choice, but there really isn't any more choice in Pillars' system than in a mature system found in Pathfinder, D&D 3.5E and 5E, etc.

 

 

 

It may help if you looked at this issue from a different angle. The point of the attributes system in PoE is to allow multiple different builds to be viable. That does not mean that every attribute needs to be equally weighty to each class. Indeed, every class has a few slightly more favorable attributes and a few less favorable. So what? The point is you can still build a decent character even if you don't max out those favored attributes. Regardless of whether Might and Int are the marginally better stats for a Wizard, they do not limit the types of builds you can have. A player can build a playable Wizard with average to sub-par Might and Int, if they want to focus on a different play style. Does that make sense?

 

If you want a properly balanced attribute system, you play Champions and accept the extra complexity. It isn't needed for PoE.

 

 

You cannot allow mutliple different builds simply through a system, you need to hone the details for that, and the PoE stat system doesn't affect this at all. The problem with D&D stats is not with the stat 'system', it is with the way individual powers and abilities and classes function. For example, a sorceror doesn't need wisdom for anything, hardly any int (unless for some specific reasons) and absolutely no strength at all. Mostly they just need Charisma, Constitution and Dexterity being helpful. What if you made it so that Strength reduces spell-failure from armor, Intelligence increases the number of spells you can learn and gave the sorceror certain spells that are so powerful that you must pass difficult will saves just to cast them? Suddenly all attributes are useful and allow, a wide variety of builds are enabled with natural benefits to certain multiclass combos depending on which abilities you focus on and absolutely no violation of an instinctual understanding of how these character traits work has happened.

 

My point is, trying to solve a complicated problem with a system is trying to take a shortcut where none exist; it will never lead to good results.

 

 

 

Sorcerers do need Wisdom.  D&D often ties Wisdom to the effects of your Wish spell, and Pathfinder GMs will often take the caster's WIS score into effect as well.  Additionally, WIS controls Will saves and Will is one of the "important" saves (the other being Fort.)  Sorcerers don't need to pump WIS but dumping it is very dangerous.  A Sorcerer will want STR if they plan on multiclassing, taking prestige classes, archetypes, etc that involve melee combat (or thrown combat, though very few people use thrown weapons for some reason.)

 

It's really weird.  People say that the old 3.5E system is restrictive and focuses on dump stats, and yet I can spend hours devising interesting characters and builds for Pathfinder because it gives you so much flexibility and freedom.  Pillars wasted a lot of time and effort fixing what wasn't broken to begin with, although since we're stuck with it now I think it can work just fine if they actually balance it properly - which they seem to be working on for Deadfire.

 

If anything, I find Pillars to be overly restrictive and rather boring to build characters for since they're all generalists.  One two-handed Fighter is much the same as any other two-handed Fighter - compare this to a switch-hitting Vital Strike Fighter to a traditional iterative attacks Fighter in Pathfinder, for example.  To say nothing of archetypes or multiclassing...

[MortyTheGobbo]

I'm going to spare everyone my (extremely low) opinion about Pathfinder, and simply point out that comparing a tabletop game to a video game is dishonest, to put it mildly. You keep bringing up how a GM in PF will do this or that - Pillars has no GM.

[rjshae]

I'm going to spare everyone my (extremely low) opinion about Pathfinder, and simply point out that comparing a tabletop game to a video game is dishonest, to put it mildly. You keep bringing up how a GM in PF will do this or that - Pillars has no GM.

 

I don't know that I'd call it dishonest, but it's true that the motivations in tabletop versus video games are quite different. They have to be since a tabletop game hides a lot more of the information and is generally more flexible and unpredictable.

[Ninjamestari]

Sorcerers do need Wisdom.  D&D often ties Wisdom to the effects of your Wish spell, and Pathfinder GMs will often take the caster's WIS score into effect as well.  Additionally, WIS controls Will saves and Will is one of the "important" saves (the other being Fort.)  Sorcerers don't need to pump WIS but dumping it is very dangerous.  A Sorcerer will want STR if they plan on multiclassing, taking prestige classes, archetypes, etc that involve melee combat (or thrown combat, though very few people use thrown weapons for some reason.)

 

It's really weird.  People say that the old 3.5E system is restrictive and focuses on dump stats, and yet I can spend hours devising interesting characters and builds for Pathfinder because it gives you so much flexibility and freedom.  Pillars wasted a lot of time and effort fixing what wasn't broken to begin with, although since we're stuck with it now I think it can work just fine if they actually balance it properly - which they seem to be working on for Deadfire.

 

If anything, I find Pillars to be overly restrictive and rather boring to build characters for since they're all generalists.  One two-handed Fighter is much the same as any other two-handed Fighter - compare this to a switch-hitting Vital Strike Fighter to a traditional iterative attacks Fighter in Pathfinder, for example.  To say nothing of archetypes or multiclassing...

 

 

Well, most people are more familiar with the CRPG implementations of D&D, also like MortTheGobbo pointed out, a single player CRPG has no DM. This is why I made the example of how to tweak the sorceror, in PnP every single ability is as important as the dungeon master wants it to be, so while I wouldn't readily call that argument dishonest, it is at the very least misguided. This is why the benefits and roles of each statistic has to be worked into the mechanics of the game.

 

The best way to do this is to first specify the stats that are used, and *then* figure out how they can affect the characters in different ways. Making MIG affect both spell and melee damage was an incredibly lazy decision, to the point that they had to cause the rift between the character traits and the reality from which we derive our understanding of them. This was a huge mistake, and like I said, an extremely lazy decision.

 

Obviously, Might should represent physical strength and muscle mass, this is at the core of the issue. There are tons of ways to make physical strength useful to mages simply by adding additional strength checks into different combat scenarios. Might could also affect the characters ability to wear heavier armor to some degree, and otherwise carry heavier equipment. For example different armor types could have certain Might requirements that you need to meet in order to wear said armor without additional penalties. Right now armor penalties are something like 5% slower recovery time for every 1 DR, but it could be made into let's say 2% per 1 point of DR if you meet the Might requirement of the item, or every point of might beyond 10 could simply reduce the armor penalty by 3 percentage units. I'm not saying this is specifically what should be done, but I'm saying that there are options.

 

Intelligence on the other hand I like to see as the "versatility stat", have intelligence affect the amount of skill points you get and it will be both intuitive and useful for all classes.

 

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

[1varangian]

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

In DnD, when you look at the stat spread of a character you can imagine what they are like.

 

In Pillars, when you look at the stat spread you can see micro modifiers to other stats.

[rjshae]

 

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

In DnD, when you look at the stat spread of a character you can imagine what they are like.

 

In Pillars, when you look at the stat spread you can see micro modifiers to other stats.

 

Because Wisdom is so much clearer than Perception or Resolve?

[Messier-31]

 

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

In DnD, when you look at the stat spread of a character you can imagine what they are like.

 

In Pillars, when you look at the stat spread you can see micro modifiers to other stats.

 

 

D&D: You're a wizard 'Arry, so you *must* have high INT, or else you will suck bigtime.

PoE: You're a wizard 'Arry, so you *may* have high INT, but don't be so hard on yourself.

 

Don't get me wrong, I just think not every system has to duplicate one another. Frankly, I respect them both.

[1varangian]

 

 

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

In DnD, when you look at the stat spread of a character you can imagine what they are like.

 

In Pillars, when you look at the stat spread you can see micro modifiers to other stats.

 

 

D&D: You're a wizard 'Arry, so you *must* have high INT, or else you will suck bigtime.

PoE: You're a wizard 'Arry, so you *may* have high INT, but don't be so hard on yourself.

 

Don't get me wrong, I just think not every system has to duplicate one another. Frankly, I respect them both.

 

If Wizards are presented carrying a big book wherever they go and spells are complex magic formulas in that book.. yes, all Wizards must have high Int because their approach to magic is scientific.

 

An 18 Might, 8 Int blaster Wizard carrying a fancy grimoire seems more like a parody.

[Fenixp]

An 18 Might, 8 Int blaster Wizard carrying a fancy grimoire seems more like a parody.

I'd like to point out that this would be you advocating less roleplaying options, which I don't like in a roleplaying game (for obvious reasons) Edited April 19, 2017 by Fenixp

[rjshae]

 

 

 

Again, the point here is that there are a ton of rather simple options that are relatively easy to balance, and each stat should be very distinct in the way it affects the character, instead of how things are now when essentially there's 3 damage stats, 2 resilience stats and 2 utility stats. Accuracy being both damage and utility. This is why the D&D approach is superior, it is a natural approach with intimate ties to reality with truly distinct stats that are unique. In PoE every single stat is encroaching on each other's territory at least a little bit, and they feel like arbitrary game mechanics more than something that represents the kind of character I play.

 

This pretty much sums it up.

 

In DnD, when you look at the stat spread of a character you can imagine what they are like.

 

In Pillars, when you look at the stat spread you can see micro modifiers to other stats.

 

 

D&D: You're a wizard 'Arry, so you *must* have high INT, or else you will suck bigtime.

PoE: You're a wizard 'Arry, so you *may* have high INT, but don't be so hard on yourself.

 

Don't get me wrong, I just think not every system has to duplicate one another. Frankly, I respect them both.

 

If Wizards are presented carrying a big book wherever they go and spells are complex magic formulas in that book.. yes, all Wizards must have high Int because their approach to magic is scientific.

 

An 18 Might, 8 Int blaster Wizard carrying a fancy grimoire seems more like a parody.

 

"Unlike priests and druids, wizards do not personally shape the magic that is released. Instead, their grimoires' spell pages do most of the work. The wizard's specialty is in understanding how to help the magic flow in and out of the grimoire without going haywire."

[1varangian]

Not advocating anything just pointing out the obvious.

 

"Far from being occult or protected knowledge, most wizards' spells are just so incredibly complex and physically demanding that even practiced wizards cannot invoke them without the use of expensive, specially-enchanted tomes."

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

That's just reinforcing that the tome does most of the work. Why are you people so butthurt about a mage having to lift to do more damage with spells?

[Gorgon]

Nothing wrong with having 'useless' avenues for stat increases that might give you more options for dialogue for instance.  I like the idea of making stats less important when weighed against feats, low stat requirements for feats would make for less min-maxing for instance. Are they called skills in Pillars, I can't even remember.

 

EDIT : Skills, abilities and talents should have more diminishing returns imho, you could go all practical but the loss compared to trying out an 'unfeasible' path should be less.  

 

I hesitate to use the word 'powergamer' but that's usually what I wind up doing, I can't help myself. Whenever I play a game with less requirements and less lost in the creation of an unlikely build it feels liberating. 

[rjshae]

Not advocating anything just pointing out the obvious.

 

"Far from being occult or protected knowledge, most wizards' spells are just so incredibly complex and physically demanding that even practiced wizards cannot invoke them without the use of expensive, specially-enchanted tomes."

 

Right. I'd expect that a Wizard trying to create a new spell would depend heavily on Intelligence.