Replacing camping supplies with something

[dragubaba]

 

Enjoyment comes from challenges and overcoming them. Challenge comes partly from restrictions and how to deal with them. If you want entertainment that challenges you in no way go watch a damn movie.

That's where *your* enjoyment comes from. Other people have other ways of enjoying PoE.

 

Pretty sure one of the major selling points of PoE was the nostalgic longing for old-school type of game design where bad decisions hurt and the mechanics of the game does not hold your hand at every turn. I'm just sick of everything being reduced to compliment the lowest common denominator in order to not offend anyone.

[Katarack21]

I'm sick of people trying to force their style of gameplay on everybody else.

Fact is, we all have different things we miss about the old IE games. The common bond is that we loved and missed the games; not what specific traits or aspects drew us to them or still stick inside our brains. That's the problem with nostalgia; no two people see the past through the same filter.

Combat--challenging or otherwise--was never the aspect of the IE games that drew me. I'm not in it for the tactical RTwP gameplay. You knew what kept me going through BGII?

The desire to rip off Irenicus's mask and shove his face in his own weakness. The desire to see what else Minsc would have to say. The desire to save Imoen.

That was my experience with BGII. I'd venture it's not the same as yours. Our experiences of PoE are most likely just as different.

[Fenixp]

Hopefully the replenishment would be swifter than 1HP per hour? Or are we at the point of just making wildly improbable statements to support our "side"?

It doesn't really matter, slow replenishment would just get really irritating. If you'd give me a choice between instant regen and regen that takes like 5 minutes, I'd take the instant one as I'd be tempted to stand around for 5 minutes before a fight y'know? When you watch the HP rise slowly and steadily, it'd be both disheartening to use a limited supply to rest or to attack a group of mobs without waiting until it's full.

 

I suppose I could mention that unlimited resting is fine and its up to the player to control the use of such

I'm fine with this, actually. Or give us a menu toggle, but at this rate, we'd get so many menu toggles that we'd be able to configure an entirely different game (now there's something that's not been done yet. Altho... It's called game-maker I guess) Edited March 4, 2017 by Fenixp

[dragubaba]

I'm sick of people trying to force their style of gameplay on everybody else.

 

Fact is, we all have different things we miss about the old IE games. The common bond is that we loved and missed the games; not what specific traits or aspects drew us to them or still stick inside our brains. That's the problem with nostalgia; no two people see the past through the same filter.

 

Combat--challenging or otherwise--was never the aspect of the IE games that drew me. I'm not in it for the tactical RTwP gameplay. You knew what kept me going through BGII?

 

The desire to rip off Irenicus's mask and shove his face in his own weakness. The desire to see what else Minsc would have to say. The desire to save Imoen.

 

That was my experience with BGII. I'd venture it's not the same as yours. Our experiences of PoE are most likely just as different.

Sounds to me like you formed an emotional connection with the story and characters but didn't care for the gameplay and are doing a bit of forcing yourself now eh? You can campaign for a RTwP game not to be a RTwP game all you want but you'll never get those characters back you know that right?

[Katarack21]

 

I'm sick of people trying to force their style of gameplay on everybody else.

 

Fact is, we all have different things we miss about the old IE games. The common bond is that we loved and missed the games; not what specific traits or aspects drew us to them or still stick inside our brains. That's the problem with nostalgia; no two people see the past through the same filter.

 

Combat--challenging or otherwise--was never the aspect of the IE games that drew me. I'm not in it for the tactical RTwP gameplay. You knew what kept me going through BGII?

 

The desire to rip off Irenicus's mask and shove his face in his own weakness. The desire to see what else Minsc would have to say. The desire to save Imoen.

 

That was my experience with BGII. I'd venture it's not the same as yours. Our experiences of PoE are most likely just as different.

Sounds to me like you formed an emotional connection with the story and characters but didn't care for the gameplay and are doing a bit of forcing yourself now eh? You can campaign for a RTwP game not to be a RTwP game all you want but you'll never get those characters back you know that right?

 

You realize that being patronizing and condescending only reinforces the fact that you can't understand or comprehend playstyles other than your own and all of your opinions are based around the idea that anybody who doesn't play the way you play is *wrong*?

[Boeroer]

A game that nailed the camping system is Expedition: Conquistador, it was perfect. PoE 2 should introduce some of the mechanics in that game's camping system.

Can you elaborate? I don't know that game. How did camping work?

[Fenixp]

Can you elaborate? I don't know that game. How did camping work?

It had a bit of a survival knack to it. Here's the camping screen:

 

You got to choose tasks for each member of your party, and based on task chosen, they would go out and hunt for food, scavenge, look for healing herbs, work on preserving existing food that'd spoil otherwise or guard the camp. Based on their stats and skills, the game would add a percentage value to a pool of individual tasks being performed (how likely you're to get a good catch, how much more secure your camp is etc.) and then, when you'd rest, the game would give you resources and then, sometimes, trigger a random encounter (not necessarily a negative one - when your camp is well protected, hostiles won't try to attack your camp, but your patrols may discover something in the area that may help you for instance.)

 

Expeditions: Conquistador's a pretty great game, well worth playing. But honestly, after some time, for me personally the camping mechanics became a chore - but I'm sure they could be improved with some streamlining, in its core the system's really cool

Edited March 4, 2017 by Fenixp

[Gfted1]

It doesn't really matter, slow replenishment would just get really irritating. If you'd give me a choice between instant regen and regen that takes like 5 minutes, I'd take the instant one as I'd be tempted to stand around for 5 minutes before a fight y'know? When you watch the HP rise slowly and steadily, it'd be both disheartening to use a limited supply to rest or to attack a group of mobs without waiting until it's full.

But that's up to the particular player. Sit around and regen, camp, or soldier on.

 

Maybe if the rate of regen was tied to CON it would be more interesting? Hearty "tanky" types with a high CON would regen faster than back liners? Admittedly, I'm not sure how PoE currently works...if you drop during a fight you are KO'd, right? Then when the fight is over you wake up from the KO but have an "injury"? What if "injuries" can only be removed by proper rest and not regenerated from? Something like that? I'm just spitballing here.

[rjshae]

Adra healing crystals:

• The heal a body quickly, requiring only 8 hours rest
• They can only be recharged at soul fonts
• They won't function if you carry too many

Okay, lets call them "camping supplies"...

[Fenixp]

But that's up to the particular player. Sit around and regen, camp, or soldier on.

I disagree. For there to be a meaningful choice, one option mustn't be forced upon the player. Constant regeneration is quite intrusive and can't be ignored, no matter how you'd spin it.

 

Maybe if the rate of regen was tied to CON it would be more interesting? Hearty "tanky" types with a high CON would regen faster than back liners? Admittedly, I'm not sure how PoE currently works...if you drop during a fight you are KO'd, right? Then when the fight is over you wake up from the KO but have an "injury"? What if "injuries" can only be removed by proper rest and not regenerated from? Something like that? I'm just spitballing here.

Well if we wanted to go technical, all of your endurance does instantly regenerate after each fight - there's then the health pool from which endurance is drawn which can only be regenerated using some talents or resting. No common healing ever heals your health pool, even tho it can regenerate some endurance.

 

I find this method to be a very effective method of simulating battle fatigue, but it most likely won't be present in the second game, so ... Eh.

[Katarack21]

Adra healing crystals:

• The heal a body quickly, requiring only 8 hours rest
• They can only be recharged at soul fonts
• They won't function if you carry too many

Okay, lets call them "camping supplies"...

Nope. Health recovery potions. Thus why Luminious Adra from Deadfire is so valuable.

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

I think Josh has said somewhere (maybe SA?) that food is integrated into the new resting system. I'm assuming that food buffs are replacing camping buffs, i.e., eat a dragon steak at your campfire for +2 fire resistance till your next camp.

[rjshae]

 

Adra healing crystals:

• The heal a body quickly, requiring only 8 hours rest
• They can only be recharged at soul fonts
• They won't function if you carry too many

Okay, lets call them "camping supplies"...

Nope. Health recovery potions. Thus why Luminious Adra from Deadfire is so valuable.

 

Nope. It's part of the setting canon that health potions are very rare. Plus they've been overused (and overabused) in other games. We get to deal with it as part of the challenge.

[Boeroer]

In other games? Can't say how often I gulped a Potion of Infuse with Vital Essence. Not so rare those things...

[Katarack21]

 

 

Adra healing crystals:

• The heal a body quickly, requiring only 8 hours rest
• They can only be recharged at soul fonts
• They won't function if you carry too many

Okay, lets call them "camping supplies"...

Nope. Health recovery potions. Thus why Luminious Adra from Deadfire is so valuable.

 

Nope. It's part of the setting canon that health potions are very rare. Plus they've been overused (and overabused) in other games. We get to deal with it as part of the challenge.

 

 

 

Adra healing crystals:

• The heal a body quickly, requiring only 8 hours rest
• They can only be recharged at soul fonts
• They won't function if you carry too many

Okay, lets call them "camping supplies"...

Thus why Luminious Adra from Deadfire is so valuable.

 

[rjshae]

^ Well, whatever. The party is healing up some pretty nasty injuries in the span of just a few hours. Seems like magic to me, even if it is "slow" acting. I'd like to see a more plausible mechanic than "camping supplies" for that, without resorting to healing item consumption during combat.

[molotov.]

 

A game that nailed the camping system is Expedition: Conquistador, it was perfect. PoE 2 should introduce some of the mechanics in that game's camping system.

Can you elaborate? I don't know that game. How did camping work?

 

Fenixp did a good job explaining, but he forgot my favourite element.

 

If you had any character with a severe injure he would stay out of combat, to treat the injure you had to give that task to any character with a good medic skill, if the injure was severe that character could stay days without fighting and your doctor would spend days trying to heal him. That brought another level of tactic to the game, you had to be cautious in every single combat - you couldn't be reckless with your squishs characters or they would end up with a broken arm.

BUT you might be thinking, "oh, but that is just for a severe injure? How about a simple cut?", Yes that could happen, but if not treated that could get infected, thus, making it severe. It was an amazing system.

Edited March 6, 2017 by molotov.

[Boeroer]

Thanks a lot. And I totally missed Fenixp's post about that, sorry. Thank you, too.

[Osvir]

 

 

A game that nailed the camping system is Expedition: Conquistador, it was perfect. PoE 2 should introduce some of the mechanics in that game's camping system.

Can you elaborate? I don't know that game. How did camping work?

Fenixp did a good job explaining, but he forgot my favourite element.

 

If you had any character with a severe injure he would stay out of combat, to treat the injure you had to give that task to any character with a good medic skill, if the injure was severe that character could stay days without fighting and your doctor would spend days trying to heal him. That brought another level of tactic to the game, you had to be cautious in every single combat - you couldn't be reckless with your squishs characters or they would end up with a broken arm.

BUT you might be thinking, "oh, but that is just for a severe injure? How about a simple cut?", Yes that could happen, but if not treated that could get infected, thus, making it severe. It was an amazing system.

NEO Scavenger and Project Zomboid disinfect, stitch, apply bandage xD

 

A bit complex for a game like PoE though... Battle Brothers does a good and simple job imo (and visually shows it on the character~ bandage over head, shoulder, arm, torso, eye, etc)

[Guest 4ward]

People might have mixed feelings about it, but one of the things I liked in Baldur's Gate 2 was the chance of being ambushed by monsters when resting in dangerous areas.

 

perhaps, as a suggestion in case that would be considered for pillars2, the likelihood of being waylaid/ambushed and by what type of enemy could be tied to difficulty setting and party level.

[Sedrefilos]

I found it! Replacing camping supplies with... resting supplies!

[Regggler]

To the people who liked BG's ambush mechanic: What would happen to me in BG was casters run out of spells => rest => get ambushed => either win or reload => rest again => repeat until you successfully rest, ad nauseam. Did you enjoy playing this "just one good night's sleep" minigame? Just my opinion, of course, but I really, really did not.

 

Camping supplies (sorry, resting supplies) can be made ineffective through backtracking, ambush mechanics through save scumming. So they have the same problem: their effectivity only depends on the players threshold for annoyance. I can't think of a solution for this, unfortunately.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Regggler

[MountainTiger]

I also don't find BG's ambush mechanics enjoyable or a meaningful limit on resting; camping supplies were a better mechanic to discourage resting after every fight than ambushes, which tended to be easily defeated anyway. Lingering stronghold resting bonuses + survival bonuses were also a good mechanic to positively encourage resting.

 

Ultimately, a lot of players are willing to go through the tedious process of running out of the dungeon, returning to town/stronghold, resting, and returning in order to get more rests. If you want to eliminate this as an option, you have to either prevent the player from leaving the dungeon or make the travel time matter (e.g. by updating quest statuses or by respawning the dungeon). I think there is room for more of both of these than were present in PoE 1 (only Cilant Lis and Sun in Shadow didn't have the option to backtrack for unlimited free rests, and I believe no quests could be failed based on taking too much in-game time), but I understand that they are likely to be unpopular with a lot of players.

[hilfazer]

To the people who liked BG's ambush mechanic: What would happen to me in BG was casters run out of spells => rest => get ambushed => either win or reload => rest again => repeat until you successfully rest, ad nauseam. Did you enjoy playing this "just one good night's sleep" minigame? Just my opinion, of course, but I really, really did not.

That's no different than savescumming to win a handplaced fight. Savescumming is solved by Ironman mode and POE had that. Otherwise devs should not bother with savescumming because it's not their problem but player's, just like cheating or reading guides online.

[fiddlesticks]

The problem with the ambush mechanic in Baldur's Gate was that it actually encouraged more frequent resting, because you'd much rather face an ambush with half of your spells still remaining than all of them being drained.

Edited March 8, 2017 by fiddlesticks