alternative facts

[Leferd]

Forest for the trees...

 

To be fair, it wasn't actually TIME who did the fact-checking. Someone did it and the screenshot got passed around until I came across it. I don't remember where or from whom.

 

TIME presented the transcript as is. I'll re-link. Again.

 

http://time.com/4710456/donald-trump-time-interview-truth-falsehood/?xid=homepage

[ShadySands]

That's the best kind of correct!

 

I hope that guy wins

[Gromnir]

a degree don't grant intelligence or wisdom, as the recent shaq dialogue in a different thread should attest.

 

shakespeare had the equivalent o' an elementary school education. faraday had even less education than the bard.  

 

we had manual labor jobs in high school and college. many o' the guys we got to know on jobs where we came home covered in dirt and sweat, guys who wore jeans and tool belts 'stead o' expensive suits, were as smart as the folks we work with today.  change circumstances. change luck.  those folks we knew working roofing supply or doing ranch work coulda been attorneys or doctors.  

 

on the other hand, we know plenty o' folks who had every advantage and managed to get their degree(s) from the mostest prestigious universities. can have decades o' education and never gain no insights.  an ivy leaguer who is as useful as a bag o' dead cats is far too common in our experience. 

 

is no special wisdom gleaned from blue collar work. similarly, fulfilling degree requirements does not make one smarty.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[majestic]

It appears Merkel is loosing her untouchable status. Luckily, unlike in many other countries right now, we have the choice between two good alternatives. But how do non Germans find the idea of Merkel loosing? To a left winger, perhaps?

 

Hint: Only Germans like Merkel. Everyone else will go:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jn8K8EA7-Q

 

'cept for Bruce of course.

[Chilloutman]

 

It appears Merkel is loosing her untouchable status. Luckily, unlike in many other countries right now, we have the choice between two good alternatives. But how do non Germans find the idea of Merkel loosing? To a left winger, perhaps?

 

Hint: Only Germans like Merkel. Everyone else will go:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Jn8K8EA7-Q

 

'cept for Bruce of course.

 

To be fair, most people in EU are not happy to replace Merkel with someone worse than her and Schulz for sure is even worse. He is even more 'we can make it' guys than her. Germany will never learn, they will break Europe once again

[Barothmuk]

But how do non Germans find the idea of Merkel loosing? To a left winger, perhaps?

Ask the Greek left.

[Gromnir]

what does mandatory have to do with anything? lack o' mandatory actual enhances our example.  the human animal weren't dumber in faraday's or shakespeare's day. more ignorant as a whole?  sure, but ignorance can be overcome whereas stoopid is a whole different kinda obstacle. regardless, are missing the point o' shakespeare and faraday as it sure weren't the formal education they received which made 'em intellectual giants, and in any event, shakespeare and faraday were both finished with their formal education before completing the equivalent o' elementary education. 

 

am believing education is extreme important.  am not diminishing the value o' education.  if everybody were a faraday or shakespeare, we wouldn't need national education programs.  the thing is, even in this thread, we can see how education doesn't necessarily make a person smarter.  on an individual basis, as 'posed to societal, it is foolish to overestimate the significance o' highest level o' education attained.

 

back on-topic, the following freebie link does a better job o' explaining the nyt headline issue.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/fact-check-trump-misleads-on-times%e2%80%99s-surveillance-articles/ar-BByEaOr?ocid=spartandhp

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps formal and mandatory education, even to this day, typical fails at most important goals.  the vast majority o' people finish their educations w/o ever having learned how to learn effective and w/o a goodly grasp a basic problem solving scheme.  nowadays we got such an emphasis on making all learning modalities equal viable that ironic, people seem less able to learn beyond the boundaries o' schoolhouse gates.  as for problem solving, it always amazes us how many folks fraudulent believe they has well-developed critical thinking skills and analytical skills in spite o' the emphasis modern schools place 'pon development o' "critical thinking." 

[Zoraptor]

Forest for the trees...

Not really, the point of a fact check is to be factual; a fact check that isn't factual is just a polemic wearing authoritative clothes. It's pointing out that some of the trees in the forest are actually plywood cut outs. And the forest is there, there's no need for fakery.

 

I don't really care who did the fact checking (ironically, last Time article I read was the 'Total Meltdown' one on Trump per election), that's the least important aspect. I don't need to be convinced that Trump lies. For a 'fact check' the target audience has to be those who believe Trump- proving to them that he lies. Instead, practically, the target is people who already believe Trump lies and who want that belief reinforced, for anyone else that fact check is counter productive. Indeed, the effect it had was such that I didn't even notice that the author had doubled down on #6 with #14 as I'd been turned off completely. Worse, the quote in #14 even has Trump mention the internet edition specifically.

 

You'd have been far better off without the graphic.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Zoraptor

[Wrath of Dagon]

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2017/03/the-nyt-struggles-to-fight-off-trumps.html

[Leferd]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/president-trump-called-my-cellphone-to-say-that-the-health-care-bill-was-dead/2017/03/24/8282c3f6-10ce-11e7-9b0d-d27c98455440_story.html?utm_term=.cd2b332bc280

 

I suppose Trump is correct to blame the Democrats for them not wanting to vote against repealing the ACA.

[Gromnir]

 I don't see the point in your posts

welcome to our world.  

 

is repetition and nonsense.

 

possible clarification: shakespeare and faraday didn't have the ordinary level o' education o' their contemporaries.  dunno, were that the hangup?  

 

*shrug*

 

perhaps level o' formal education is a noteworthy measure o' societies.  perhaps.  is ill-suited to measuring the intellect and ability o' individuals.

 

 

google srinivasa ramanujan if the shakespeare and faraday examples is too english.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

Are you claiming Schultz is a intelectual prodigy like them? 

what is with you? point to where we claimed or implied schulz is an intellectual prodigy.

 

...

 

we can wait.

 

we made a limited claim.  we observed how absence o' a degree is insufficient proof of mental deficit. our support o' such a claim were varied, but we did indeed give examples o' giants in multiple fields o' study who were undereducated by any reasonable measure.  

 

we recognize how you ain't "seeing."  lord knows we is attempted to help you. 

 

and to stay on-topic, we got a few new alternative facts from trump regarding the recent health bill fail.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/fact-check-trump%e2%80%99s-misleading-claims-on-the-health-bill-failure/ar-BByIuUZ?ocid=spartandhp

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I'm a engineer 

 

 

 

we observed how absence o' a degree is insufficient proof of mental deficit. 

 

You claim that because there are some exceptions the rule is false?

 

 

> claims to be an engineer

> apparently can't grasp the basic concepts of necessity and sufficiency 

 

sounds legit

[Guard Dog]

 

 

ps formal and mandatory education, even to this day, typical fails at most important goals.  the vast majority o' people finish their educations w/o ever having learned how to learn effective and w/o a goodly grasp a basic problem solving scheme.  nowadays we got such an emphasis on making all learning modalities equal viable that ironic, people seem less able to learn beyond the boundaries o' schoolhouse gates.  as for problem solving, it always amazes us how many folks fraudulent believe they has well-developed critical thinking skills and analytical skills in spite o' the emphasis modern schools place 'pon development o' "critical thinking." 

 

You hit the nail on the head here. In my job I have had the opportunity to work with some highly educated individuals. Advanced degrees are common and even go so far as to form an absurd "pecking order" where the assertions of a PhD are taken at face value even when demonstrably incorrect. A phrase I coined a while back describes someone whose "education has exceeded their intelligence".

[Malcador]

Happens. In my engineering school the workload was so heavy that it can be easy to not learn and just fight through to the next hump. As an old coworker said the degree proves you're either smart, resourceful or plain lucky.

[Leferd]

Right. Blind trust. What conflicts of interest?

 

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2017/03/24/after-promising-not-donald-talk-business-with-father-eric-trump-says-president-give-him-financial-reports/#4f2f1569359a

 

[Leferd]

 

“Senator, I think what they were trying to do was drive a wedge within the Democratic Party between the Clinton group and the Sanders group, and then in our nation between Republicans and Democrats.”

 

 

[Hurlshort]

 

It seems that the fake news media cannot even report correctly on something as simple as hat signing.

 

 

That's, kind of the point though, isn't it? Any 'news' source that wastes time reporting on non-events like this isn't really worth paying attention to. It's the same thing as those 'news' sources that pop up with stories about a President not saluting someone or not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge. These stories are just designed as clickbait for people that want to believe the President is some sort of cartoon villain. 

 

There are a few things any reasonable person can take for granted about every one of the Presidents that has ever served in office. They are working tremendous hours for the betterment of the United States. You can disagree with their policies and question the outcomes of their decisions, but it is good to always remember the incredible pressure and responsibility that comes with the office. It is the most difficult job in the country.

[Guard Dog]

 

That's, kind of the point though, isn't it? Any 'news' source that wastes time reporting on non-events like this isn't really worth paying attention to. It's the same thing as those 'news' sources that pop up with stories about a President not saluting someone or not putting his hand over his heart during the pledge. These stories are just designed as clickbait for people that want to believe the President is some sort of cartoon villain. 

 

There are a few things any reasonable person can take for granted about every one of the Presidents that has ever served in office. They are working tremendous hours for the betterment of the United States. You can disagree with their policies and question the outcomes of their decisions, but it is good to always remember the incredible pressure and responsibility that comes with the office. It is the most difficult job in the country.

 

If anyone doubts that just have them look at the before and after pictures of the Presidents.

[Leferd]

Or if only people can tell the difference between legitimate primary-sourced reporting and not get distracted/mislead by click-bait news aggregators and their hot take cousins.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Remember when we were laughing at Mitt Romney saying Russia was the US' greatest geopolitcal adversary?

 

Anyways I'm hungry and gonna have an alternative salad for lunch.

[Pidesco]

There are a few things any reasonable person can take for granted about every one of the Presidents that has ever served in office. They are working tremendous hours for the betterment of the United States.

That stopped being true a few months ago, apparently.

[Guard Dog]

Are they really working for the betterment of the United States? I'm sure most like to think so. Differences of political philosophy are in the eye of the beholder since there are varying opinions of what actually will better the United States. But I wonder, did Barack Obama really believe the United States would be better if the IRS started persecuting political dissent. Did he truly believe the ACA driving up the cost of everything from home thermometers to veterinary care would better the lives of Americans? Did George W Bush believe crating a massive new federal bureaucracy that takes an interest in the activity of everyday Americans would make us better? If so perhaps the questions isn't their character so much as their intelligence.

 

I believe the real goal of people in power is more power. That is what they are really working tirelessly for. Perhaps they really do believe taking power and freedom from people will lead to their betterment. Perhaps they tell themselves that lie to ease their conscience. Either way, even if it's done with benevolence in their heart (patronizing as it is), it joins them in the company of some truly evil people throughout history. To a degree at least.

 

If a government really wants to better it's people and nation step one would be to not hurt them. Step two is to establish a set of rules everyone must live by with no exceptions. Step 3 confine itself to only enforcing those rules and leave the people to look after their own betterment.

[Pidesco]

I was specifically thinking about the "working tremendous hours" bit.

 

I'm of the opinion that both W. and Obama were well meaning. This is iffier if considering their entire administrations, of course.

 

Stating that the cause of rising health care costs was the ACA is misleading to say the least. Healthcare costs in the US were already ridiculous and increasing long before the ACA. The ACA was an underwhelming solution because the US, as a whole, is ridiculously and irrationally dysfunctional regarding anything that attempts to tackle the unmitigated catastrophe that is healthcare in America.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Funny how foreigners keep coming over here to partake in the "unmitigated catastrophe".