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@LordCrash Maybe could you write something on the Fig campaign? You know just making sure the devs read that there is a certain lack of friendship in Pillars 1. And appreciation in the group and trust developing slowly over time etc.

 

The feeling that the group grows together and connects. I would like to see something like that in Pillars 2.

 

This is weird but in my opinion PoE had two of the deepest, most well written friendship paths I've ever played in an RPG game with Durance and Grieving Mother. Zahua was pretty amazing too. That whole acid trip, wow. 

 

Goes to show that opinions can vary like night and day on pretty much anything.

 

 

The Grieving Mother had very VERY interesting dialogues, I remember that much. And I found her to be one of the most interesting characters in the game. Did she really develop a deep friendship with the watcher?

 

I may not remember, then I'm sorry. Or maybe I have a different idea of deep friendship.

 

Hmm but then what about Aloth and Hiravias?

Maybe I should replay the game before I rely on my bad memory. Sorry if I don't remember correctly.

 

As far as I remember during my playthrough of Pillars 1, I always had the feeling that my group in Baldur's Gate (mainchar, Imoen, Aerie (romanced), Minsc, Jaheira, Sarevok) had grown closer together than my group in Pillars.

 

But memory can be tricky ;)

 

 

I dunno if we'll ever agree on the definition of friendship, but I really got swept up in Grieving Mother's self torture due to her lies and I view the player character's attempt to make her face up to her sins or heal her wound as friendship. It's not as obvious as BG because of the alignment system. Basically if you follow the same alignment as certain companions, they will look at you as the best buddy in the world. When I hit 16 on the good scale or something, Minsc will go, "we are all heroes, you and Boo and I. Hamsters and rangers everywhere....rejoice!". So that's friendship for you. Nothing wrong with it. I loved hearing him say it.

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Huhm, interesting. Well, see, we don't even have to argue about romances when the concept of friendship gives plenty reasons to argue about :p

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@LordCrash Maybe could you write something on the Fig campaign? You know just making sure the devs read that there is a certain lack of friendship in Pillars 1. And appreciation in the group and trust developing slowly over time etc.

 

The feeling that the group grows together and connects. I would like to see something like that in Pillars 2.

 

This is weird but in my opinion PoE had two of the deepest, most well written friendship paths I've ever played in an RPG game with Durance and Grieving Mother. Zahua was pretty amazing too. That whole acid trip, wow. 

 

Goes to show that opinions can vary like night and day on pretty much anything.

 

 

In which way do you think these were good friendships? What exactly made the relationship between the PC and either of those two a deep friendship for you? I'm really interested, especially I indeed have a very different opinion on the topic.

 

 

Do we really have to talk about my opinion on friendship? lol. It's been a while, the dialogues were long.

 

Like I said, it may not be obvious but I consider getting Durance to face up to the truth and then consoling him when he was crying out of his lungs as what friends do.

 

Not as obvious as BG where you hit the ceiling of neutral goodness and all the good characters in your party think you're their brother or their sister, or they fall in love with you (yup, romance). If you go evil Edwin will remark that you've exceeded your low born heritage. Friendship right there. 

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@Skyleaf

When you say "Not as obvious as BG" I think that is the point, for me.

 

You can actually interpret that there is a friendship or some friendships in PoE1, but then for me the problem is exactly that the friendships need to expressed more obviously.

 

It's one thing if I like (here talking about friendship) someone. It's another thing if I also show them that I like them.

 

And I would like to see both.

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Do we really have to talk about my opinion on friendship? lol. It's been a while, the dialogues were long.

Haha, you don't have to talk about anything if you don't want to. ;)

 

Like I said, it may not be obvious but I consider getting Durance to face up to the truth and then consoling him when he was crying out of his lungs as what friends do.

Hm, for me that interaction always missed Durance's reaction to the PC. But that's maybe just me. After all, Durance always felt more like a loner to me, even after all the stuff he did with the party.

 

Not as obvious as BG where you hit the ceiling of neutral goodness and all the good characters in your party think you're their brother or their sister, or they fall in love with you (yup, romance). If you go evil Edwin will remark that you've exceeded your low born heritage. Friendship right there.

I don't know whether that already qualifies for friendship but it's at least no obscure concept that you need to decipher first - and maybe you never get that far because you expect an emotional relationship while it's mostly rather an intellectual one. Sometimes stuff is actually pretty simple, no need to make it more complex than it needs to be. ;) Edited by LordCrash
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@Skyleaf

When you say "Not as obvious as BG" I think that is the point, for me.

 

You can actually interpret that there is a friendship or some friendships in PoE1, but then for me the problem is exactly that the friendships need to expressed more obviously.

 

It's one thing if I like (here talking about friendship) someone. It's another thing if I also show them that I like them.

 

And I would like to see both.

 

The thing is, it's obvious to me but not obvious to others. Or maybe I'm feeling something that isn't there, I dunno. Depends on how emotionally invested you are in their stories I think.

 

I feel a connection with Durance and Grieving Mother when they open up to my player character. Especially with Grieving Mother, her big reveal tug at my heartstrings like how I suspect a friend would react. I understood Durance. I feel him too, but in the end I thought he was just an idiot. I consoled him nonetheless. This doesn't happen with every character though. I got nothing from Kana and Aloth. Probably one of the few not that intrigue with Eder either although the revelation that his God lives and nearly killed the player character will make him ten times more fascinating I bet. Add a bit of romance, and who knows...

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I didn't read everything, so I might be stepping on toes. Beg pardon if so.

 

If the team wants to do a romance, isn't forced into checking boxes for every type of romance to satisfy specific interest groups, can find a way to express a truly meaningful relationship, doesn't reduce romance into some sort of weird CRPG functionalism, refrain from trite, clichéd, and offensively stultifyingly hackneyed scenarios, and manage to make it work properly with the game as a whole package, I'm down with it. Good luck with that.

 

I would hate to be categorized as part of one tribe or another, but if I must claim one category or another, then put me in the anti-romance crowd. Not to get along. I've got a total of 23 posts and I've been a member for a week or something like that. I like getting along, but I have no need or interest in currying favor. I simply don't want romances in the game because I think they'll screw them up.

 

As a last word, I will say that if they can do it well, I'll enjoy it. The best argument is success and while I'd fight against the romance idea, if they pull it off then I'm going to admit I was wrong.

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@Skyleaf

When you say "Not as obvious as BG" I think that is the point, for me.

 

You can actually interpret that there is a friendship or some friendships in PoE1, but then for me the problem is exactly that the friendships need to expressed more obviously.

 

It's one thing if I like (here talking about friendship) someone. It's another thing if I also show them that I like them.

 

And I would like to see both.

 

The thing is, it's obvious to me but not obvious to others. Or maybe I feel it and some don't. Depends on how emotionally invested you are in their stories I think.

 

I feel a connection with Durance and Grieving Mother when they open up to my player character. Especially with Grieving Mother, her big reveal tug at my heartstrings. I understood Durance. I feel him too, but in the end I thought he was just an idiot. I consoled him nonetheless. This doesn't happen with every characters though. I got nothing from Kana and Aloth. Probably one of the few not that intrigue with Eder either although the revelation that his God lives and nearly killed the player character will make him ten times more fascinating I bet. Add a bit of romance, and who knows...

 

 

Hm, you really think the act of opening up and telling you your "life story" is enough for a relationship to be called deep friendship? So if you went to the nearest nursing home and some grand daddy told you stories about his life and what he did during his military service you would magically become friends just because his story touches you? Hm, I don't know. Of course it needs courage and trust to open up to others, but that alone isn't enough for friendship. Friendship needs mutual affection based on shared experiences, shared interest, shared beliefs and an emotional attachment. And most of that usually happens BEFORE a friend tells you his deepest issues and desires. Imo there is no believable interaction evolution between the PC and Durance that build up enough trust, mutual respect and even more important, mutual affection, that serves as prerequisite for the act of opening act. But I respect that you felt differently. I guess there are quite a few differing concepts of what friendship acutally means and what it requires.

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You've raised some excellent points there. To be totally honest with you, the first time I discovered romance in RPG, I was appalled by it, seriously. I created this female half elf character in BG2 with an elegant portrait and then Anomen starts hitting on her. I was thinking "what the **** is this sleazebag doing??" lol. Then I got to Viconia and I was surprised how romance could co-exist with video games.

 

 

I'm a woman and I'm always playing as a female character; I have to say, the romance with Anomen was awful. He's such an annoying character that I couldn't stand him and kicked him out of the party before finishing BG2 on my first playthrough. Later I installed a mod allowing romances with Viconia/Aerie/Jaheira at the same time and from that point on I almost always had all of them in my team. Well, apart from Aerie, she's a bit too whiny for my taste. 

 

I really like romances in games, if we could get some deep relationships in Deadfire, I'm all for them. But if Obsidian doesn't feel like they can offer as real bounds with characters, I would rather have them not do romances at all than having another Anomen-like romance which makes me frustrated every time a dialogue pops up. 

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The thing is, it's obvious to me but not obvious to others. Or maybe I feeling something that isn't there, I dunno. Depends on how emotionally invested you are in their stories I think.

 

I feel a connection with Durance and Grieving Mother when they open up to my player character. Especially with Grieving Mother, her big reveal tug at my heartstrings. I understood Durance. I feel him too, but in the end I thought he was just an idiot. I consoled him nonetheless. This doesn't happen with every character though. I got nothing from Kana and Aloth. Probably one of the few not that intrigue with Eder either although the revelation that his God lives and nearly killed the player character will make him ten times more fascinating I bet. Add a bit of romance, and who knows...

 

I think the appeal of Edér for a lot of people, myself included, is the times he's just there being supportive. Those times where he shakes the player awake because they're having a nightmare and sounds genuinely concerned (A+++ voice acting from Mercer there) were some of the most endearing interactions I've seen in a video game. I was so used to interactions being limited to "listen to me talk about myself and then solve my personal problems" that I was pleasantly surprised every time I was in a conversation with a companion and they ask something along the lines of "How are you feeling?" or "What are your plans for the future?" Definitely not something I was used to seeing.

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@Skyleaf

When you say "Not as obvious as BG" I think that is the point, for me.

 

You can actually interpret that there is a friendship or some friendships in PoE1, but then for me the problem is exactly that the friendships need to expressed more obviously.

 

It's one thing if I like (here talking about friendship) someone. It's another thing if I also show them that I like them.

 

And I would like to see both.

 

The thing is, it's obvious to me but not obvious to others. Or maybe I feel it and some don't. Depends on how emotionally invested you are in their stories I think.

 

I feel a connection with Durance and Grieving Mother when they open up to my player character. Especially with Grieving Mother, her big reveal tug at my heartstrings. I understood Durance. I feel him too, but in the end I thought he was just an idiot. I consoled him nonetheless. This doesn't happen with every characters though. I got nothing from Kana and Aloth. Probably one of the few not that intrigue with Eder either although the revelation that his God lives and nearly killed the player character will make him ten times more fascinating I bet. Add a bit of romance, and who knows...

 

 

Hm, you really think the act of opening up and telling you your "life story" is enough for a relationship to be called deep friendship? So if you went to the nearest nursing home and some grand daddy told you stories about his life and what he did during his military service you would magically become friends just because his story touches you? Hm, I don't know. Of course it needs courage and trust to open up to others, but that alone isn't enough for friendship. Friendship needs mutual affection based on shared experiences, shared interest, shared beliefs and an emotional attachment. And most of that usually happens BEFORE a friend tells you his deepest issues and desires. Imo there is no believable interaction evolution between the PC and Durance that build up enough trust, mutual respect and even more important, mutual affection, that serves as prerequisite for the act of opening act. But I respect that you felt differently. I guess there are quite a few differing concepts of what friendship acutally means and what it requires.

 

 

I guess we can agree that the definition of good friendship can differ like night and day just like the definition of good romance in RPG. Don't we just love these games?

 

On a last note, here's how I look at how my player character would view the evolving relationship with these two characters as friendship. They've been through many battles. They don't talk to you much. Slowly, they reveal deeper layers of themselves. Then they trust you enough to tell more. Then they let it all out, just lay it bare like they're emotionally naked. If I put myself in the player character shoes I would say, we've been through hell together and you've let me know who you really are as a person, you confide in me things you'd never tell anyone else. Thank you. I'll go to war with you anytime.

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I guess we can agree that the definition of good friendship can differ like night and day just like the definition of good romance in RPG. Don't we just love these games?

 

On a last note, here's how I look at how my player character would view the evolving relationship with these two characters as friendship. They've been through many battles. They don't talk to you much. Slowly, they reveal deeper layers of themselves. Then they trust you enough to tell more. Then they let it all out, just lay it bare like they're emotionally naked. If I put myself in the player character shoes I would say, we've been through hell together and you've let me know who you really are as a person, you confide in me things you'd never tell anyone else. Thank you. I'll go to war with you anytime.

 

 

 

 A lot is happening 'off screen' (in your imagination) in these games. In BG2, you get expressions like Minsc's hamsters and rangers speech and it gives cues that a friendship has developed. In Pillars, you have a deep conversation with someone that you have been through difficult situations with and you can fill in the friendship cues if you see it that way.

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I guess we can agree that the definition of good friendship can differ like night and day just like the definition of good romance in RPG. Don't we just love these games?

 

On a last note, here's how I look at how my player character would view the evolving relationship with these two characters as friendship. They've been through many battles. They don't talk to you much. Slowly, they reveal deeper layers of themselves. Then they trust you enough to tell more. Then they let it all out, just lay it bare like they're emotionally naked. If I put myself in the player character shoes I would say, we've been through hell together and you've let me know who you really are as a person, you confide in me things you'd never tell anyone else. Thank you. I'll go to war with you anytime.

 

 

 

 A lot is happening 'off screen' (in your imagination) in these games. In BG2, you get expressions like Minsc's hamsters and rangers speech and it gives cues that a friendship has developed. In Pillars, you have a deep conversation with someone that you have been through difficult situations with and you can fill in the friendship cues if you see it that way.

 

 

Yeah exactly. It's happening "off screen". And that what happens off screen is what I would like to see on screen.

That's exactly what I would wish for.

 

At the moment you have to assume or imagine that a friendship between certain characters must have been developed.

But I would like to see at least parts of this development on screen.

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...

 

Yeah exactly. It's happening "off screen". And that what happens off screen is what I would like to see on screen.

That's exactly what I would wish for.

 

At the moment you have to assume or imagine that a friendship between certain characters must have been developed.

But I would like to see at least parts of this development on screen.

 

 

 

 Maybe, but it might be possible to overdo details in the game.

 

 My memory of BG (the first game with its minimal character development) is a lot more vivid than what happened on the screen and through the speakers. I think a lot of that is due to how much was left to the imagination. 

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@Skyleaf @Fluffle

 

It's one of these things in video games that always baffled me. It's quite impossible to compare individual views about storytelling stuff if we don't stay with the actual words and narrative elements that are included in the game but rather talk about connections and stories that we made up along the way in our own minds, often with the very purpose to fill the voids of the source material. For some people these voids are a testament of lacking writing, for others they seem to offer the freedom they needed to transform the available bits and concepts of storytelling into their very own story. I often have that very same conversation with Bethesda fans. Some keep telling me that they experience the greatest stories in Skyirm and Fallout and I always kept wondering if I seriously missed out on anything because I couldn't remember hardly two intriguing or interesting story arcs or quests from that game. But then again I remembered that these people usually mean that they used the game to rave about their own stories rather than just following what the devs offered them in actual words. Playing Skyrim works for them so well because they combine the existing bits with their own day dreams. And I don't mean that in a bad or insulting sens it's just an observation. And to be honest, I wish I had such a vivid fantasy from time to time. But then again I think that it's not my "job" to come up with all that stuff on myself but that it's the job of the writing and design team to well, simply entertain me. I don't want to do the work myself, I want them to do the work for me. Playing games or reading novels or watching movies is a leisure time activity for me in which I want to experience and enjoy interesting and deep stories other people imagined with all their heart and care. I want to change perspective, not dream about my life in a given setting with characters that merely serve as puppets for me to play with and for me to transform into. 

 

Actually, there is even a much deeper "conflict of interest" here that usually divides the whole roleplaying community. It's about how we play these games in general and about the way we feel empathy. It's about the question whether we want to BE a character or whether we want to CARE about a character. It's usually much easier to fill the voids for people who want to be the character because it's "their" fantasy anyway. It's a small step from being the actual hero in a video game to making up your own stories whereever needed. For the caring fraction it's harder. They're rather spectators, external puppet masters. They don't take the role for themselves, they control a character within a certain role. Actually this way of playing and epxeriencing games is also much closer to the typcial narrative experience we have while reading a book or watching a movie with predefined characters. We are spectators, following the life of others. For such spectators (like me) every bigger void in a game is an issue because it's not a void that could be filled with own ideas and concepts but a mere plot hole that is seen as an inconsistency in the storytelling. And that's also the reason why the very same storyline could reviewed in very different ways even if the understanding of underlying concepts of this storyline is pretty much the same. 

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But I would like to see at least parts of this development on screen.

 

 

What I liked about ME trilogy was you got to see the friendship develop with the long-time recurring characters (Tali and Liara, but most especailly Garrus). My ME2 playthrough, put out that Liara wasn't back (this was before the DLCs), I went through the romance with Garrus and FemShep (partly becaue I was very surprised it was  an option*) which was, I think, one of Bioware's better efforts). But when ME3 came around, and Liara was back, FemShep had to have That Conversation with Garrus - and he was totally cool with it.

 

Which I found was... pretty unfathomable unexpected. Up until now - and I think pretty much every other time it came up, it went badly. But no, Garrus was like "s'alright, dudette, no worries." And then for the rest of the game Garrus was my best mate - and I remember the scenes with him and Shepard just palling around more than I do the stuff with Liara, the Designated (for that run anyway) Love Interest. (And Tali and Liara also rank among my all-time favourite companions, along with the likes of Imoen, Minsc, Morte, Dakkon and Alister.)

 

That level of interaction was what made the trilogy for me.

 

It's that sort of thing I think Pillars would be best to focus on - skip the romantic relationships, but have a good and serious attempt at doing a proper friendship with our companions. (Eder, especially, is standing in a  good position already to capitialise from PoE in PoE2.)

 

Because I am pretty sure that would would probably be something we'd basically all be pleased with, yes?

 

 

 

*Partly because Turians aren't one of what one might colourfully say the "pretty races." Brandon Keener deserves quite a bit of credit for apparently generating enough of a following to sidestep that trope, largely, one presumes, on the strength of voice-acting alone...

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@LordCrash

 

That explains (one of) the underlying fundamental problem(s) very well. Also it's very well and clearly written by you.

 

It certainly is a huge difference if you are in the role of a spectator or if you imagine to be mainchar yourself.

 

I have done both in the past. For example in Baldur's Gate 1 or in Icewind Dale where there is very little to no party interaction at all I automatically fill the void by myself. It happens just automatically, I could not prevent that even if I wanted to.

 

However, then the characters are my creations actually. Then I fill the empty templates.

 

And that IS a huge difference to when you watch, as an observer, the characters of someone else. Like what I do in Baldur's Gate 2 or Mass Effect for example. There, the companions are not just almost empty or even completely empty templates that I have to fill. However I still fill the template of the mainchar.

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.... fill the voids of the source material. For some people these voids are a testament of lacking writing, for others they seem to offer the freedom they needed to transform the available bits and concepts of storytelling into their very own story.....

 

 That's a very interesting idea. I think you and I want exactly the opposite thing from a game, but you have stated what the things are very well.

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That's a very good post.

 

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the hint at "self-inserting" my own personality into the character. Yes, creating your own story is a large part of it; but it doesn't have to be you, as a character, or your own wishes and dreams, but more what you imagine your player character might wish or dream (I hope that wasn't too confused).

It's a thing I also find in pen and paper RPGs. You play a character and fill him/her with life - you alone create their story, how they react to their experiences, how these shape them, what they want to accomplish, their relations to other people.

RPGs like Skyrim (or even better: Morrowind) try to give you a background to do that. Bethesda PCs are famously "blank slates" - you're starting as a prisoner, and from there on, it's your character, your world, and your story. (There's not even a reason exactly why you're in prison. Make up your own.) You're the writer, not the reader. (Now, before this gets into a flamewar on Skyrim: That's what they're trying to do. With very obvious shortcomings. I'm not saying anything about how successful they were.)

That can end up as self-insert fic, but it doesn't have to. (Apart from the obvious observation that ultimately, every story you tell is part of you.)

 

The opposite, in RPGs, are games with a very defined protagonist whose story you play - be it the Nameless One, or Geralt of Rivia.

 

PoE and similar games (BG, for example) are something in-between: Not open enough to just do your own thing, not constrained enough to really have a pre-defined character. PoE tries to push you more into the spectator direction, with its background stories (something that the BGs didn't have). But that means that there are aspects of both to be found in it.

 

As for its companions, I think that Eder is so popular because he gives off very friend-like vibes - through his personality, mostly, and in small scenes like the waking-up, and I agree that this could've been made much more accessible.

Durance and Grieving Mother, however, did not come across as "friends" to me, to be honest. One of my major problems with Bioware relationships and romances (and that starts with BG2, already, so it's nothing new) is that they often come down to helping a companion deal with their personal demons, as if I were a psychotherapist. (Oh, Aerie's lost her wings. Let's sit together and talk until she gets over it. Jaheira? Lost her husband. Viconia? Is a fish out of water, mistreated and almost lynched. Anomen? Is an insecure but pompous a**.) And the talks with Durance and GM, to me, seemed like this but turned up to eleven. (That I really didn't like their personality, didn't help, probably. ;) ) GM didn't confide in me because I was a good friend and we did stuff together, she told me things because I was very skilled with my therapeutic sessions. ;)

 

But that is, I think, in part an issue with the dialogue tree system. There obviously is a "correct" path to a given outcome, because it has to be pre-programmed. (And if it's random, people will save-scum. And/or complain.)

And that's the same with romances. I have, honestly, no idea how to avoid that with this dialogue system (or any other). You can make it bearable by making the dialogue really good and memorable, and if it's not, then having a game that is a bit tongue-in-cheek like Divinity:OS helps a lot. But PoE takes itself so very, very serious...

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I def want romance in PoE2, though I'm not optimistic. 

 

They can't cater to everyone, so.. just make Eder romanceable and half the fandom will be happy.

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I def want romance in PoE2, though I'm not optimistic. 

 

They can't cater to everyone, so.. just make Eder romanceable and half the fandom will be happy.

Will people please stop molesting Eder!

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