Romance

[Aotrs Commander]

Considering how companion quests tend to end in PoE I expect PoE romance’s happy end to look something like this: “You get to save Iovara and ascend to somewhere together while half of the world burned to death and the other one is now worshipping Woedica who absorbed every other god and is now unquestioned ruler of the world” *cough*

 

Sounds legit...

 

 

 

Not opposed to them, personally - can take or leave them. (And for the record, I was a big Bioware fan - far more than I was Obs, actually - until after DA:O and they increasingly blotted their copy-book (for unrelated reasons)). But as mumbogumshoe said earlier, Obsidian seem fairly opposed to them (and some of the fanbase can be rather... borderline obnoxiously negative about them). And it really has become a trigger-word now.

 

I laud Bioware for at least making a well-meaning (at least initially) attempt to cater for everyone in terms of diversity; but that led to the backlash (of course), because there are people who didn't like the idea at all (for various reasons), people who rabidly didn't want that diversity and that games should only cater to their tastes*, people who didn't want every character to be player-sexual (which was kind of unavoidable, I fear, when trying to cater for everyone without a ridiculously large cast) etc, etc... So whatever you would do would be BadWrongTerrible to some vocal quarter.

 

So it may be for the best (or at least a quiet life), all told, that Obs doesn't try it this time around. Maybe in another twenty years, when things have calmed down a bit (maybe)...! It didn't do PoE much harm, after all.

 

That said, would WOULD unquestionably like to see is the sort of relationship in PoE2 that developed with the returning long standing characters over the course of ME trilogy. (Which, also for the record I though was fantastic right up to the last fifteen/twenty minutes of ME3 and any point With Kai Leng In It. Mind you, Obs, prior to that, you guys had the award for Worst Ending Ever with vanillia NWN2 with your "rocks fall" - a particular let-down after argueably the Best Final Boss Battle Ever...) Garrus still wins the prize for Best Companion in any RPG I've played - but he had, of course, about 150 hours of game-time over three games to work with.

 

Here's hoping we get something like that with Eder (I say Eder, since he's a bit more... mate-y than Aloth, though he's also cool.)

 

 

 

*I recall someone (might have even been around the PoE forums around the run-up to the first game, because it was afte DA2 and I don't think i would have been on a Bioware forum at that time, but I forget), who was rabidly furious that feminists had taken over gaming.... Because he thought one of the female characters in Dragon Age 2 looked masculine (not even sure it was one of the ones you could romance in that game). (So, basicaly, his objection appeared to be, in essence, there existed a female character he did not consider spank-worthy material. The mind boggles. And then sigh and shakes its head.)

[PrimeJunta]

Well, the stretch goal companion's name is pronounced Hottie...

 

(okay it's probably really pronouned Shottie but I couldn't resist)

[Strange_Trees]

I see romances as being very similar to racing mini-games.

 

Sometimes they're done well, often not. Some people enjoy them, some people don't.

 

If the developers really feel that it would improve their game and want to do it, by all means I support that, but I don't want to see them dump resources into aspects of the game they don't want to (thus taking those resources away from where they could be better used) just because someone else does it.

[kirottu]

I'd like to see romances as a 5 million stretch goal. Just to see promancers go: "It will never happen, but it kinda could happen, but it will never happen."

Edited January 29, 2017 by kirottu

[Skyleaf]

 

Considering how companion quests tend to end in PoE I expect PoE romance’s happy end to look something like this: “You get to save Iovara and ascend to somewhere together while half of the world burned to death and the other one is now worshipping Woedica who absorbed every other god and is now unquestioned ruler of the world” *cough*

 

Sounds legit...

 

 

 

Not opposed to them, personally - can take or leave them. (And for the record, I was a big Bioware fan - far more than I was Obs, actually - until after DA:O and they increasingly blotted their copy-book (for unrelated reasons)). But as mumbogumshoe said earlier, Obsidian seem fairly opposed to them (and some of the fanbase can be rather... borderline obnoxiously negative about them). And it really has become a trigger-word now.

 

I laud Bioware for at least making a well-meaning (at least initially) attempt to cater for everyone in terms of diversity; but that led to the backlash (of course), because there are people who didn't like the idea at all (for various reasons), people who rabidly didn't want that diversity and that games should only cater to their tastes*, people who didn't want every character to be player-sexual (which was kind of unavoidable, I fear, when trying to cater for everyone without a ridiculously large cast) etc, etc... So whatever you would do would be BadWrongTerrible to some vocal quarter.

 

So it may be for the best (or at least a quiet life), all told, that Obs doesn't try it this time around. Maybe in another twenty years, when things have calmed down a bit (maybe)...! It didn't do PoE much harm, after all.

 

That said, would WOULD unquestionably like to see is the sort of relationship in PoE2 that developed with the returning long standing characters over the course of ME trilogy. (Which, also for the record I though was fantastic right up to the last fifteen/twenty minutes of ME3 and any point With Kai Leng In It. Mind you, Obs, prior to that, you guys had the award for Worst Ending Ever with vanillia NWN2 with your "rocks fall" - a particular let-down after argueably the Best Final Boss Battle Ever...) Garrus still wins the prize for Best Companion in any RPG I've played - but he had, of course, about 150 hours of game-time over three games to work with.

 

Here's hoping we get something like that with Eder (I say Eder, since he's a bit more... mate-y than Aloth, though he's also cool.)

 

 

 

*I recall someone (might have even been around the PoE forums around the run-up to the first game, because it was afte DA2 and I don't think i would have been on a Bioware forum at that time, but I forget), who was rabidly furious that feminists had taken over gaming.... Because he thought one of the female characters in Dragon Age 2 looked masculine (not even sure it was one of the ones you could romance in that game). (So, basicaly, his objection appeared to be, in essence, there existed a female character he did not consider spank-worthy material. The mind boggles. And then sigh and shakes its head.)

 

 

You've raised some excellent points there. To be totally honest with you, the first time I discovered romance in RPG, I was appalled by it, seriously. I created this female half elf character in BG2 with an elegant portrait and then Anomen starts hitting on her. I was thinking "what the **** is this sleazebag doing??" lol. Then I got to Viconia and I was surprised how romance could co-exist with video games.

 

With ME3, while the ending was a bit of a mess, I thought the romance bit was spot on some of the best I've played. I replayed the goodbye scene between Shepherd and Liara/Tali over and over again, even though I had to go through those banshees to get to those cutscenes.

 

I also agree with posters who say that romances doesn't always work. When we're talking about DA2, I am one of those who thinks that Anders & Fenris are incredibly obnoxious characters and they just add to the frustration of what seems to be a monotone game. But blaming the writer and creating a feminist issue out of it was pretty stupid too, I agree. So of course, romance is a risk. It can be rewarding, it can be taxing, just like anything else.

 

Now with PoE..., well I've read about Avellone's opinion on romance, but I'm still holding up some hope because I really feel romance can work in PoE's sandbox.  But I won't be too upset about it not happening given Obsidian's history and so forth.

 

It doesn't hurt to ask. If it's a confirmed no then I hope this will be the only thread on the subject and we'll consider the matter closed. I hate the negativity around this subject myself.

 

I'm already happy that Larian is deciding to experiment with romance even with Avellone on board. Given all the negativity when the subject was brought up in their first game, I'm surprised they're going through with it. But it worked out and nobody is swearing off the D:OS 2 just because it's got romance in it now.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Skyleaf

[dark___devil]

If the romance is like in BG2 it will be a good addition to the game(As long as is well written).

[Eurhetemec]

I'd probably cancel my pledge if they decided to incorporate Dragon Age or Mass Effect style "Romance". In my opinion that would be a terrible waste of resources.

 

Besides, I'm pretty sure the point of these games is to be as unlike Bioware "RPG's" as possible.

 

If that is the goal of Pillars and Tyranny, they are utterly miserable failures. Truly awful, even, because the similarities between the two are far greater than the differences, apart from the visual perspective.

 

But I'm pretty sure that's not the goal at all, as in fact just a strange thing a tiny minority of people on this forum believe (and that people make this sort of claim is why Obsidian designers almost never post here, whilst posting frequently elsewhere).

 

As for romances, I think there's really one simple, good, sound argument against them in Pillars 2:

 

Pillars 1 was designed to intentionally avoid them.

 

Now, it was not in the "WE HATE ROMANCE!" way some fans here pretend, but because they wanted to put a different focus on character interactions. That said, fundamentally a lot of the relationships in Pillars 1 very mechanically similar to romances in other games, just not technically romantic.

 

But now it's as much of a tradition for Pillars as having romances is for Bioware. Which is not to say it stands in "opposition" to that, it doesn't.

 

I should also say that most of the arguments being deployed against romances here are complete and utter rubbish, which isn't even rational or true. But I agree that they shouldn't be in Pillars 2 (or full-on ones shouldn't) because that's not how Pillars 1 was (though it is how BG2 was, note).

 

But sadly some of the pro-romance arguments are equally godawful, like this bit of extremely sexist nonsense (I mean good god, if you actually believe this, you might want to try talking to people instead of making wild assumptions about them):

 

 Romances are huge magnet for female demographics. All those women who play, for example, Mass Effect do it mostly for romances, and not because they like SciFi and third person shooters.

 

So, if devs want to game be more popular and profitable, there should be a romances in POE2.

 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Eurhetemec

[Gromnir]

worst kinda déjà vu

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80293-thoughts-on-romance-and-modding-official-romance-thread/?p=1801737

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/70723-the-official-romance-thread/?p=1576523

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66436-bittersweet-eternity-an-open-letter-addressed-to-obsidian-entertainment/?p=1464868

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/53294-new-mass-effect-2-character/?p=1000256

 

etc

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am repeating our previous opinion regarding poe romance: make it a seperate dlc funding goal.  torment offered the bloom separate from the base game.  do same with romance.  offer romances and let the promancers fund... or not.

Edited January 29, 2017 by Gromnir

[Gairnulf]

 

 

Now this is how you romance! 

Increase graphics quality when taking such screenshots! :D

[TheRealDrMcCoy]

I'm 100% in favour of romances. I'm also fundamentally against what the against-BioWare-tribe, for the most part, stands for. And I reject the notion that it's some kind of dichotomy between "hardcore" and "romance".

 

However, what I want is for something that goes way further than most games with romances offer. I don't just want early stage of getting to know one another, then boinking, then the romance is "won" and you don't hear anything about it anymore. That shouldn't be the end, that should just be the start. Having them end there skews reality too much and sends the wrong signal.

 

The relationship should continue there. Give it room to breathe, to grow.

 

Especially if the game is more introspective, focussing on the personal story of your group instead of just a bog-standard save-to-world plot, I think that would/could/should be a vital part of the story.

[Gairnulf]

On second thought - what's not to love about romances: 

Edited January 29, 2017 by Gairnulf

[Aramintai]

I don't get why people are so against romances. It seems like it's just cool to hate it nowadays. Nobody says they want explicit sex scenes or a date sim. I don't see a problem if devs simply do something in the vein of flirting in Planescape: Torment or smth a little more advanced like in Baldur's Gate 2. It's optional but adds flavour to companions and to the game in general. They're gonna do personal quests anyway, why not add some romantic subplot as well?

Edited January 29, 2017 by Aramintai

[Leferd]

Just smash and move on. No need for messy commitments or entanglements.

[TheisEjsing]

 

 

 

Now this is how you romance! 

Increase graphics quality when taking such screenshots! :D

 

I just snatched it off google. ^_^ My own adventure in Velen has been over for a year now sadly. ^^

[draego]

Here we go again. I do give it you for fighting this fight. good luck, i could care less either way but i do understand the passion for different parts of games that we all like.

[Gromnir]

Just smash and move on. No need for messy commitments or entanglements.

is smash the euphemism kids is using these days? am so outta touch.

 

@aramintai

 

our links answer your querry. tediuous. in detail. repeated.

 

oh, and am again gonna recommend making romances dlc fodder with separate funding.  everybody wins, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Leferd]

 

Just smash and move on. No need for messy commitments or entanglements.

is smash the euphemism kids is using these days? am so outta touch.

 

@aramintai

 

our links answer your querry. tediuous. in detail. repeated.

 

oh, and am again gonna recommend making romances dlc fodder with separate funding.  everybody wins, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Well, I don't what your definition for kids these days are but, yeah sure.

 

*doublechecks urban dictionary. Yep, it's good.

[LordCrash]

Actually being so harshly against "romance" while being for deep, rich and complex characters is a blatant contradiction.

 

Affection and repulsion should be allowed parts of a relationship between two believable and complex characters (that includes everything from friendship to sexual encounters to love and from distrust to betrayal to rivalry). I understand that some people are against silly composed and badly written relationships that have little substance beyond "hey, let's band." I'm against bad writing in general which includes such one-dimensional and overly intentional dialogues and character arcs. But excluding such important themes of the human life and mind like love and hate from the game altogether still sounds extremely stupid to me. And no, it doesn't make a more "mature" or more "philosophical" or whatever experience, quite the opposite.

 

Obsidian should never write "romance plots" for the sake of including romance but at the same ime they shouldn't exclude everything that even faintly seems to be romantic from the game. Romantic feelings and various aspects of love and mutual affection should be part of any serious storytelling approach and it should evolve naturally, not as an intended goal but as a natural evolution of a relationship. And relationships doesn't need to end there. Real human relationships can offer so much depth, it would be quite a loss not to touch them, especially while having a party around to apply all those nasty human feelings upon (both good and bad, often at the same time)...

Edited January 29, 2017 by LordCrash

[Aramintai]

@aramintai

 

our links answer your querry. tediuous. in detail. repeated.

 

oh, and am again gonna recommend making romances dlc fodder with separate funding.  everybody wins, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

As if I'm gonna read those long walls of text of your personal opinion. I won't mind if it's a stretch goal, but better yet I want devs themselves voice their opinion as to why they don't wanna do them, considering they've done them before and now wanna take the throne from BG2 with Deadfire.

[Eurhetemec]

Actually being so harshly against "romance" while being for deep, rich and complex characters is a blatant contradiction.

 

Affection and repulsion should be allowed parts of a relationship between to believable and complex characters (that includes everything from friendship to sexual encounters to love and from distrust to betrayal to rivalry). I understand that some people are against silly composed and badly written relationships that have little substance beyond "hey, let's band." I'm against bad writing in general which includes such one-dimensional and overly intentional dialogues and character arcs. But excluding such important themes of the human life and mind like love and hate from the game altogether still sounds extremely stupid to me. And no, it doesn't make a more "mature" or more "philosophical" or whatever experience, quite the opposite.

 

Huh, I'm basically anti-romance (in Pillars) but that's actually a very good point that I can't refute. Some people are inevitably all about that sort of thing and it's really part of the core of their being, so it'd weird to exclude it for the sake of excluding it.

[Gromnir]

 

@aramintai

 

our links answer your querry. tediuous. in detail. repeated.

 

oh, and am again gonna recommend making romances dlc fodder with separate funding.  everybody wins, no?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

As if I'm gonna read those long walls of text of your personal opinion. I won't mind if it's a stretch goal, but better yet I want devs themselves voice their opinion as to why they don't wanna do them, considering they've done them before and now wanna take the throne from BG2 with Deadfire.

 

"I don't get why people are so against romances. It seems like it's just cool to hate it nowadays. Nobody says they want explicit sex scenes or a date sim. I don't see a problem if devs simply do something in the vein of flirting in Planescape: Torment or smth a little more advanced like in Baldur's Gate 2."

 

you expressed lack o' understanding from those opposed to romances.  you wanted reasons.  your desire for easily digestible portions would appear to be an admission o' a personal shortcoming.

 

*shrug*

 

and you has already got developer input and explanation as they explained during poe development.  you think reasoning has somehow changed? is likely to be less money and resources available this time, so reasoning is gonna be as valid now as were a few years ago, yes?

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Eurhetemec]

you expressed lack o' understanding from those opposed to romances.  you wanted reasons.  your desire for easily digestible portions would appear to be an admission o' a personal shortcoming.

 

*shrug*

 

and you has already got developer input and explanation as they explained during poe development.  you think reasoning has somehow changed? is likely to be less money and resources available this time, so reasoning is gonna be as valid now as were a few years ago, yes?

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

To be fair to him, the links you provided do not contain any particularly convincing or enlightening arguments, just a lot of ranting and opinion.

[Aramintai]

and you has already got developer input and explanation as they explained during poe development.  you think reasoning has somehow changed? is likely to be less money and resources available this time, so reasoning is gonna be as valid now as were a few years ago, yes?

 

I think so, years have passed since PoE1, devs could have reconsidered about a lot of things since then, not just romances. And today devs are not in such dire straights as they were back then. And furthermore, I don't think writing a bunch of scripted text is as costly as you make it out to be. So yeah, this thread is valid again and one can hope devs will deign to comment somewhere about it. Afterall, they're stabbing at Baldur's Gate 2 glory now, and BG2 had romances, which were quite fine.

[Fluffle]

Hmm, the same argument as for PoE. Well well.

 

I agree with the point that there should not be romances if the developers really aren't into it.

How good could such romances be if the devs aren't into it themselves?

 

On the other hand I do not necessarily understand this very strong opposition to romances in general.

I think many people think of the EA games right? And what they dislike about the romances in

Mass Effect and Dragon Age? Maybe other games, too?

 

Well, what makes you think - if Obsidian agreed to romances - that they would handle them

the very same way as EA?

 

Why don't you take previous Obsidian games as an example how this developer has handled

romances so far.

 

Neverwinter Nights 2 main campaign would be a rather disappointing example.

While Mask of the Betrayer would be a good one, in my opinion.

[Aramintai]

Neverwinter Nights 2 main campaign would be a rather disappointing example.

While Mask of the Betrayer would be a good one, in my opinion.

Yea, MotB romances weren't half bad. Also, back in the day Obsidian were Black Isle Studios, the developers of Planescape: Torment - there were a type of romances as well.