Fidel Castro Dead at 90

[BruceVC]

But do people agree with me when I say that there are no great countries, only good or bad systems?

 

In my view patriotism has always this element of ignorance towards your country's problems. And there are few things I can't stand like ignorance.

No Bennie patriotism doesnt mean blind loyalty or some kind of nationalistic\nazi outcome 

 

In the case of Germany and the EU it just means you support the concept of the EU and Germany's contribution. Now some people want the EU to dissolve, if this happens this will weaken the West and the entire world. You have a right to have a voice and I would use it? Yes there are great countries, these are governments that try very hard to ensure good governance, economic growth and keep there citizens happy 

 

" In life if we dont stand for something we fall for anything "   

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

 

The man is an icon of freedom the world over, barring anglo-saxon countries and non-state satellites like Canada. So, the overwhelming majority of the world.

 

Ask yourself why he used to get a roaring applause prior to opening his mouth at the UN as opposed to any other politican, including those from your own country.

Every Cuban I've ever met has a serious issue with Castro. I take their word over anything else.

I'm hoping that you know even the basics of Cuban history. If you do you should be well aware that the opinions of Cubans living in the US are, at best, a one sided view of those affairs.

 

But do feel free to ignore fifty years of established international politics and world history for someone's bitter anecdotal evidence.

 

By the way, shouldn't you, as a teacher, be dealing primarily with facts?

Funny

Teachers teach what they are being told to teach. In many cases like the sciences, that is obviously teaching facts. But there is no uktimalye truths when it comes to politics. Or rather, there is, but people (especially in America) want their children to support their country. So everything is taught in a way that supports the US. Now, obviously there are exceptions, but this is the general consensus. And obviously this is true for basically every school system ever-if children are taught politics, they are usually also taught underlaying principles. And in the case of the US those are democracy, capitalism and (to a greater or lesser extend) patriotism. In some parts also religion.

 

But history and especially politics is always taught an talked about at an angle. Always!

 

 

Yes, but its the duty of any self-respecting academic and intellectual to try to entertain other points of view and educate himself as broadly as possible on a topic, weighing the extent of his knowledge on the topic and trying to get at what is likely the truth.

 

What Hurlshot said is no better than a farmer saying that he doesn't vaccinate his animals because Bob from next door said "they are, like, really bad for you".   

 

Sure, there are more than a few people that hate Castro. You don't get to be a leader for half a century without inspiring some hate in the process - even Ghandi is positively despised in most of India. 

But there are also millions of people to whom Castro is the best leader they can imagine - and millions of others across the world who see him as the symbol of national liberation, a champion for equality and freedom.

 

His status in Latin America, most of Africa and Asia - and much of Europe is unrivaled. Its ridiculous to discount that legacy merely on account of the minority of Cubans living in the US.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Orogun01]

 

 

The man is an icon of freedom the world over, barring anglo-saxon countries and non-state satellites like Canada. So, the overwhelming majority of the world.

 

Ask yourself why he used to get a roaring applause prior to opening his mouth at the UN as opposed to any other politican, including those from your own country.

 

 

Every Cuban I've ever met has a serious issue with Castro.  I take their word over anything else.  

 

It really depends on the Cuban; the old expats hate him with a passion, the newer generation are wary of him but don't fall into the trap of thinking that they would be better off with the US as an overlord. Then there are the hardcore subversive elements that are extremely discontent with their life on the island and are very pro-US if only because they are looking it through rose colored glasses.

 

Just saying, we are not a monolith on the issue.

[Ganrich]

So we are making a huge connection between the vaccination of livestock and firing squads, blatant Human Rights violations, and huge amounts of poverty? That's a pretty huge mental leap. I will take the word of people who lived under this man's reign Vs someone who lived half a world away many times over. Particularly if those people on the other side of the world are politicians. Considering that politicians seem to have very little moral issue with causing large amounts of death and destruction.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

But do people agree with me when I say that there are no great countries, only good or bad systems?

 

In my view patriotism has always this element of ignorance towards your country's problems. And there are few things I can't stand like ignorance.

No Bennie patriotism doesnt mean blind loyalty or some kind of nationalistic\nazi outcome

 

In the case of Germany and the EU it just means you support the concept of the EU and Germany's contribution. Now some people want the EU to dissolve, if this happens this will weaken the West and the entire world. You have a right to have a voice and I would use it? Yes there are great countries, these are governments that try very hard to ensure good governance, economic growth and keep there citizens happy

 

" In life if we dont stand for something we fall for anything "

I'm fully aware that being a patriot and being a Nazi are not the same thing don't worry... Not that simple minded

 

But still, while there are undoubtedly highly intelligent patriots, patriotism is often linked to right populism which feeds on dogmatic thinking (which in my opinion is not a particularly smart way of thinking). Patriotism has the same flaw as a lot of schools of thought: it can be easily abused.

 

And I do not think that supporting the EU and Germany's contribution is patriotic? As I said, I'm very happy about the systems in place, but I'm not proud of them.... Do you get me?

 

And I stand for something I regard as higher than a country: Equality! That's... It'd be a wonderful thing to see more of that in the world. Heh, I guess that's were my sort-of-sympathies with Marx come from

Edited November 27, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Barothmuk]

Well I think if Marx was alive today he'd be pretty satisfied with Germany's state

Only a liberal would be able to toss aside a person's entire life's work and hijack them as one of their own.

[BruceVC]

 

Well I think if Marx was alive today he'd be pretty satisfied with Germany's state

Only a liberal would be able to toss aside a person's entire life's work and hijack them as one of their own.

 

Its okay, we allowed to do that as liberals have been proven to have the moral high ground....haughtiness is just part of what defines us 

[Zoraptor]

Well I guess Fidel survived more assassination attempts than Tito, so that's something.

 

Wouldn't be too sure about that. Tito survived a huge number of assassination attempts (nationalists/ cetniks/ ustasi; SS/ Germans; KGB*; western intelligence all had a crack at various times), they just weren't as famously peculiar as the CIA attempts on Fidel. Well, some were quite peculiar like a bacteria laced jewelry box but they aren't as well known as exploding conch shells or botulin toxin A laced cigars.

 

*So many from Stalin that some actually believe Tito assassinated him in retaliation.

[Hurlshort]

As a teacher, I'm aware of the fact that I don't know everything and am hesitant to pass myself off as knowledgeable about the situation in Cuba and Fidel Castro because I've read a couple books and articles on the internet.  Of course the Cubans in the US have a rather one-sided view of things, but that is still one more side than I can make a claim to. 

[Drowsy Emperor]

So we are making a huge connection between the vaccination of livestock and firing squads, blatant Human Rights violations, and huge amounts of poverty? That's a pretty huge mental leap. I will take the word of people who lived under this man's reign Vs someone who lived half a world away many times over. Particularly if those people on the other side of the world are politicians. Considering that politicians seem to have very little moral issue with causing large amounts of death and destruction.

 

Please find me a single government that hasn't engaged in blatant Human Rights violations, especially one in a position as precarious as Cuba's. I'd love to see you, or anyone else, remain a saint while keeping the worlds strongest superpower at bay as it attempts to depose or outright kill you in every way imaginable for decades. 

 

As for poverty, Cuba is poor for a reason. That reason has little to do with Castro and more to do with the fact that the island has little in the way of valuable resources and less ways to utilize what it has since the US tried to keep it in an economic stranglehold for years. Politics is the art of the possible, not living a fantasy. With what little Cuba has, it has done rather well in some respects. 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[licketysplit]

Why would the left associate with this guy? Are they trying to be angry hipsters? What Trudeau said is baffling. 

[the_dog_days]

I never did send him a birthday card. We share the same one.

 

There's always next year. Oh, wait . . .

[Volourn]

"Ask yourself why he used to get a roaring applause prior to opening his mouth at the UN as opposed to any other politican, including those from your own country."

 

Because the people in my country don't care that he mass murders Cubans. They just like the fact he 'stood up' tto the US despite the fact he crippled his country and lied to the Cuban people. He is the reason why millions of Cubans risk their lives to e scape the ****hole HE created. As for Cubans who live in Cuba. There are two types - the ones who drank the Koolaid and then the ones who know if they spoke up too liudly he would happily murder them.

 

And, this is the guy you celebrate.

[Orogun01]

"Ask yourself why he used to get a roaring applause prior to opening his mouth at the UN as opposed to any other politican, including those from your own country."

 

Because the people in my country don't care that he mass murders Cubans. They just like the fact he 'stood up' tto the US despite the fact he crippled his country and lied to the Cuban people. He is the reason why millions of Cubans risk their lives to e scape the ****hole HE created. As for Cubans who live in Cuba. There are two types - the ones who drank the Koolaid and then the ones who know if they spoke up too liudly he would happily murder them.

 

And, this is the guy you celebrate.

Volo I would appreciate if you didn't speculate about what Cubans are, lest of all while i'm around. Reducing an entire group of people to two views just to illustrate a point might be how you get your argument across but I won't stand for such sophistry, specially when its my people you're talking about.

[BruceVC]

 

"Ask yourself why he used to get a roaring applause prior to opening his mouth at the UN as opposed to any other politican, including those from your own country."

 

Because the people in my country don't care that he mass murders Cubans. They just like the fact he 'stood up' tto the US despite the fact he crippled his country and lied to the Cuban people. He is the reason why millions of Cubans risk their lives to e scape the ****hole HE created. As for Cubans who live in Cuba. There are two types - the ones who drank the Koolaid and then the ones who know if they spoke up too liudly he would happily murder them.

 

And, this is the guy you celebrate.

Volo I would appreciate if you didn't speculate about what Cubans are, lest of all while i'm around. Reducing an entire group of people to two views just to illustrate a point might be how you get your argument across but I won't stand for such sophistry, specially when its my people you're talking about.

 

Then why dont you give us your views? I would have long commented on SA to avoid exactly this type of speculation

 

We not going to beg you and the reality is I also agree with much of what Volo says 

[Orogun01]

 

 

"Ask yourself why he used to get a roaring applause prior to opening his mouth at the UN as opposed to any other politican, including those from your own country."

 

Because the people in my country don't care that he mass murders Cubans. They just like the fact he 'stood up' tto the US despite the fact he crippled his country and lied to the Cuban people. He is the reason why millions of Cubans risk their lives to e scape the ****hole HE created. As for Cubans who live in Cuba. There are two types - the ones who drank the Koolaid and then the ones who know if they spoke up too liudly he would happily murder them.

 

And, this is the guy you celebrate.

Volo I would appreciate if you didn't speculate about what Cubans are, lest of all while i'm around. Reducing an entire group of people to two views just to illustrate a point might be how you get your argument across but I won't stand for such sophistry, specially when its my people you're talking about.

 

Then why dont you give us your views? I would have long commented on SA to avoid exactly this type of speculation

 

We not going to beg you and the reality is I also agree with much of what Volo says 

 

I thought I had made myself clear on an earlier post, Castro was in power for over 40 years that's 3 generations of Cubans that have different opinions because they all experienced different aspects of the regime. Suffice it to say that it is complex, there is good and there is bad.

[Ganrich]

 

 

So we are making a huge connection between the vaccination of livestock and firing squads, blatant Human Rights violations, and huge amounts of poverty? That's a pretty huge mental leap. I will take the word of people who lived under this man's reign Vs someone who lived half a world away many times over. Particularly if those people on the other side of the world are politicians. Considering that politicians seem to have very little moral issue with causing large amounts of death and destruction.

Please find me a single government that hasn't engaged in blatant Human Rights violations, especially one in a position as precarious as Cuba's. I'd love to see you, or anyone else, remain a saint while keeping the worlds strongest superpower at bay as it attempts to depose or outright kill you in every way imaginable for decades.

 

As for poverty, Cuba is poor for a reason. That reason has little to do with Castro and more to do with the fact that the island has little in the way of valuable resources and less ways to utilize what it has since the US tried to keep it in an economic stranglehold for years. Politics is the art of the possible, not living a fantasy. With what little Cuba has, it has done rather well in some respects.

Why would I bother? I said in the post you quoted that politicians have no problem with causing death and destruction. That's why I'm a small government guy. Because big authoritarian governments can cause more harm to its people and to other countries more easily.

 

Either way, all the sins of other governments of the world and history don't make many of those committed by Castro morally acceptable. You are giving the "but they did it too" argument that doesn't work with children and shouldn't extend to government.

 

On poverty, that's fair, but his decisions led them there. You can't overrun a nation and expect it's neighbors to just play nice with you afterwards. Especially if you are friends with their enemies.

[Guard Dog]

As a teacher, I'm aware of the fact that I don't know everything and am hesitant to pass myself off as knowledgeable about the situation in Cuba and Fidel Castro because I've read a couple books and articles on the internet.  Of course the Cubans in the US have a rather one-sided view of things, but that is still one more side than I can make a claim to. 

Especially since there are literally millions of them and the great majority had family members who were killed, imprisoned, or fled one step ahead of either. Castro is a historical figure in the same league as (although not as bad as) Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and on the level of Pinochet, etc. He is wholly undeserving of the praise he has received these last few days from world leaders and the otherwise intelligent people here on this very forum.

 

I do not understand it but there does seem to be a twisted admiration for dictators and mass murderers from some folks who favor a left leaning political ideology. I'm reminded of Obama's effusive praise of Castro and Chavez a few years back and the way certain Democrat Senators fawned over Soviet leaders in the 80's as examples.

[Guard Dog]

 

 

So we are making a huge connection between the vaccination of livestock and firing squads, blatant Human Rights violations, and huge amounts of poverty? That's a pretty huge mental leap. I will take the word of people who lived under this man's reign Vs someone who lived half a world away many times over. Particularly if those people on the other side of the world are politicians. Considering that politicians seem to have very little moral issue with causing large amounts of death and destruction.

Please find me a single government that hasn't engaged in blatant Human Rights violations, especially one in a position as precarious as Cuba's. I'd love to see you, or anyone else, remain a saint while keeping the worlds strongest superpower at bay as it attempts to depose or outright kill you in every way imaginable for decades.

 

As for poverty, Cuba is poor for a reason. That reason has little to do with Castro and more to do with the fact that the island has little in the way of valuable resources and less ways to utilize what it has since the US tried to keep it in an economic stranglehold for years. Politics is the art of the possible, not living a fantasy. With what little Cuba has, it has done rather well in some respects.

Why would I bother? I said in the post you quoted that politicians have no problem with causing death and destruction. That's why I'm a small government guy. Because big authoritarian governments can cause more harm to its people and to other countries more easily.

 

Either way, all the sins of other governments of the world and history don't make many of those committed by Castro morally acceptable. You are giving the "but they did it too" argument that doesn't work with children and shouldn't extend to government.

 

On poverty, that's fair, but his decisions led them there. You can't overrun a nation and expect it's neighbors to just play nice with you afterwards. Especially if you are friends with their enemies.

 

Well put

[BruceVC]

 

As a teacher, I'm aware of the fact that I don't know everything and am hesitant to pass myself off as knowledgeable about the situation in Cuba and Fidel Castro because I've read a couple books and articles on the internet.  Of course the Cubans in the US have a rather one-sided view of things, but that is still one more side than I can make a claim to. 

Especially since there are literally millions of them and the great majority had family members who were killed, imprisoned, or fled one step ahead of either. Castro is a historical figure in the same league as (although not as bad as) Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and on the level of Pinochet, etc. He is wholly undeserving of the praise he has received these last few days from world leaders and the otherwise intelligent people here on this very forum.

 

I do not understand it but there does seem to be a twisted admiration for dictators and mass murderers from some folks who favor a left leaning political ideology. I'm reminded of Obama's effusive praise of Castro and Chavez a few years back and the way certain Democrat Senators fawned over Soviet leaders in the 80's as examples.

 

GD I have raised this with you many times, on this forum there are several members who for various reasons want the USA and the West to fail. Its nothing unusual in the sense there is always someone who wants the USA to fail but most of the general animosity globally towards the West is reduced 

 

Anyway these members will always support anyone who is perceived as " anti-Western " ....thats all that matters to them, its okay if the person is a dictator as long as they dislike the USA

[Ben No.3]

Do I want the US to fall? No... Of all the empires in history, it's probably the best one we've seen so far from a moral standpoint. But all empires fall sooner or later. Now, often they do so because of or the final act is a large scale war, so let's hope it will not get to that. Let's also hope that it does not happen any time soon, as I truly don't wish for any other power to take its dominant place as it stands now.

[Ben No.3]

 

Well I think if Marx was alive today he'd be pretty satisfied with Germany's state

Only a liberal would be able to toss aside a person's entire life's work and hijack them as one of their own.

But... I'm not taking it as my own, I'm spending it in ways that benefit society. And I think your expression is a bit... Well extreme. Take away all your life's earnings... No definitely not. More like a high income tax, at least for those with high income. And isn't free health care and education including university worth it?

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

 

So we are making a huge connection between the vaccination of livestock and firing squads, blatant Human Rights violations, and huge amounts of poverty? That's a pretty huge mental leap. I will take the word of people who lived under this man's reign Vs someone who lived half a world away many times over. Particularly if those people on the other side of the world are politicians. Considering that politicians seem to have very little moral issue with causing large amounts of death and destruction.

Please find me a single government that hasn't engaged in blatant Human Rights violations, especially one in a position as precarious as Cuba's. I'd love to see you, or anyone else, remain a saint while keeping the worlds strongest superpower at bay as it attempts to depose or outright kill you in every way imaginable for decades.

 

As for poverty, Cuba is poor for a reason. That reason has little to do with Castro and more to do with the fact that the island has little in the way of valuable resources and less ways to utilize what it has since the US tried to keep it in an economic stranglehold for years. Politics is the art of the possible, not living a fantasy. With what little Cuba has, it has done rather well in some respects.

Why would I bother? I said in the post you quoted that politicians have no problem with causing death and destruction. That's why I'm a small government guy. Because big authoritarian governments can cause more harm to its people and to other countries more easily.

 

Either way, all the sins of other governments of the world and history don't make many of those committed by Castro morally acceptable. You are giving the "but they did it too" argument that doesn't work with children and shouldn't extend to government.

 

On poverty, that's fair, but his decisions led them there. You can't overrun a nation and expect it's neighbors to just play nice with you afterwards. Especially if you are friends with their enemies.

 

 

Where does this small government you speak of exist?

Edited November 27, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor

[Ben No.3]

Utopia by Thomas More

[Drowsy Emperor]

Ben No.3, on 27 Nov 2016 - 09:47 AM, said:

Utopia by Thomas More

 

 

S' nice, but it was an absolute monarch that put bread on his table 

Edited November 27, 2016 by Drowsy Emperor