US Election 2016, part II

[Guard Dog]

[Bartimaeus]

You have a problem with me? Engage me directly rather than taking pot shots.

Guard Dog already got it, mostly. Though calling my post a "potshot" when your original reply to Guard Dog was little better after you stripped his post of the context that would make your post make...well, not that much sense (for reasons Guard Dog went on to explain better), is...well, I guess the pot calling the kettle black, .

Edited June 4, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[Ganrich]

 

 

@Bruce - Anger is one of many human emotions. We are meant to experience them all during a lifetime. Trump says things that anger people. Who cares? Some people bring joy, some hope, some fear, some laughter, some anger, some depression. We have a few choices as to what to do about people that illicit negative emotions within ourselves. 1). Avoid them. 2). Act like a baby a throw a tantrum. 3). Get over it and deal with it. 4). Talk to them about it and try to change things. I usually go from 4 to 1, but sometimes 4 to 3 to 1. It depends on who they are in relation to myself. There are probably more ways to do it, but I just woke up and haven had any coffee.

 

Turn the TV off, go outside, try making yourself smile (it tends to make you smile for real), try making other people smile, and move on with your life. If you think that with 7 billion people on this rock that a few rules are going to make people not be jerks and hurt their fellow man... Then you have some critical thinking to do. No amount of rules will change that people can offend you, and most likely will at some point. So, your best course of action is learning to deal with how to keep them from having an effect on you as an individual. Learn to thicken your skin and wear some armor.

Trump should be refuted at every point. He should not be given a pass on any dumb, bigoted, and incendiary statement he makes. Apathy is a form of acceptance and an informed voting public should be engaged to the point that Trump is exposed for the sham that he is. Trump is dangerous because he wields the rhetorical power of a demagogue who holds a not insignificant amount of sway on a chunk of the American public.

 

PaddyPower currently has Trump with a 7:4 bookmaker odds of winning the Presidency. Clinton is at 1:2.

 

Aggregate futures markets currently has Clinton's chances of winning at 70%, Trump at 24%, and Gary Johnson at 0.1%

There is a difference between attacking other humans at a Trump rally and refuting points. You can remain informed, retain your ability to refute, but not allow it to effect your mental well being. You don't have to have it personally harm you emotionally. Being able to refute and not having it bother you are not mutually exclusive. Apathy is an easy accusation if I am not willing to attack someone based on political ideology. I just believe that almost nothing is worth violence.

 

I would also like to point that we wouldn't get people like Trump running for office if our elected officials hadn't grown the Fed to the point it has. Too much centralized power has been allowed to occur.

 

People keep voting for politicians that want to grow the federal government and then complain when the next politician wields that power in a way that they (the voter) don't seem morally right. It's like leaving an open honey pot on the counter for a few weeks and then complaining about flies.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Ganrich

[Leferd]

 

You have a problem with me? Engage me directly rather than taking pot shots.

Guard Dog already got it, mostly. Though calling my post a "potshot" when your original reply to Guard Dog was little better after you stripped his post of the context that would make your post make...well, not that much sense (for reasons Guard Dog went on to explain better), is...well, I guess the pot calling the kettle black, .

 

 

I don't know why you are trying to call me out on being a hypocrite which seemingly originated on my "irreverent" posting of a link to the betting markets on a Clinton indictment with the statement that there is good value (better than 3 to 1) in betting "Yes" if one is "absolutely" sure that Clinton would be getting indicted. I was being cheeky and I would think Longknife and others thought so.

 

You then made it a point to state that Longknife didn't say "absolutely sure" as if his point went over my head. I then made an explicitly sarcastic response (I even stated I was being sarcastic)  stating that I understood Longknife's point with my basic command of English and that I was explicitly being irreverent.

 

Then days later, out of context, you quoted my basic command of English post that I missed GD's point. I quoted GD''s specific paragraph because I took specific exception to my interpretation of his equating being insulted (his words)/victimized (my words) by Obama and that he and people like him aren't animals for protesting violently.  Admittedly, that touched a nerve and forced me to respond to that specific point without tempering myself.  

 

Now, if you're going into OCD mode over semantics and/or my command of the English language, then mea culpa --I can't help you. Because it seems to me that you're not debating me as opposed to taking cheap shots at me.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I got no idea what all the drama in this thread is but all your ideologies are dumb and the likely president is going to be a corporate whore who sells the working class out with trade deals and concessions to the rulers of this world. It ain't gonna get better through an election or petition and we're stuck with it until the crash that destroys everything.

 

We've had stagnating wages for years, flight of production to third world **** holes, a sham of a republic where a cabal of powerful individuals control politicians and policy rather than voters, and an increasing surveillance state designed to keep the people in check so they don't injure their betters. If you want to pretend we live in a glorious golden age because someone can retweet vapid nonsense from an iPhone after their shift or that a third party is all that's needed to fix the political system then go ahead and fiddle Nero. Edited June 4, 2016 by KaineParker

[Hurlshort]

I feel like we had the 'back in the day things were better' conversation rather recently, so I don't think we need a retread yet.  

 

 

 I guess the pot calling the kettle black, .

 

 

That's racist.  

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm 24, today is my "back in the day". Low wages and fighting 50 other college graduates for a bad job is my reality.

Edited June 5, 2016 by KaineParker

[Leferd]

 

 

@Bruce - Anger is one of many human emotions. We are meant to experience them all during a lifetime. Trump says things that anger people. Who cares? Some people bring joy, some hope, some fear, some laughter, some anger, some depression. We have a few choices as to what to do about people that illicit negative emotions within ourselves. 1). Avoid them. 2). Act like a baby a throw a tantrum. 3). Get over it and deal with it. 4). Talk to them about it and try to change things. I usually go from 4 to 1, but sometimes 4 to 3 to 1. It depends on who they are in relation to myself. There are probably more ways to do it, but I just woke up and haven had any coffee.

 

Turn the TV off, go outside, try making yourself smile (it tends to make you smile for real), try making other people smile, and move on with your life. If you think that with 7 billion people on this rock that a few rules are going to make people not be jerks and hurt their fellow man... Then you have some critical thinking to do. No amount of rules will change that people can offend you, and most likely will at some point. So, your best course of action is learning to deal with how to keep them from having an effect on you as an individual. Learn to thicken your skin and wear some armor.

Trump should be refuted at every point. He should not be given a pass on any dumb, bigoted, and incendiary statement he makes. Apathy is a form of acceptance and an informed voting public should be engaged to the point that Trump is exposed for the sham that he is. Trump is dangerous because he wields the rhetorical power of a demagogue who holds a not insignificant amount of sway on a chunk of the American public.

 

PaddyPower currently has Trump with a 7:4 bookmaker odds of winning the Presidency. Clinton is at 1:2.

 

Aggregate futures markets currently has Clinton's chances of winning at 70%, Trump at 24%, and Gary Johnson at 0.1%

There is a difference between attacking other humans at a Trump rally and refuting points. You can remain informed, retain your ability to refute, but not allow it to effect your mental well being. You don't have to have it personally harm you emotionally. Being able to refute and not having it bother you are not mutually exclusive. Apathy is an easy accusation if I am not willing to attack someone based on political ideology. I just believe that almost nothing is worth violence.

 

I would also like to point that we wouldn't get people like Trump running for office if our elected officials hadn't grown the Fed to the point it has. Too much centralized power has been allowed to occur.

 

People keep voting for politicians that want to grow the federal government and then complain when the next politician wields that power in a way that they (the voter) don't seem morally right. It's like leaving an open honey pot on the counter for a few weeks and then complaining about flies.

 

 

I'm not disagreeing with your point about violent protest. It's deplorable. But a little empathy would go a long way. It's easy to throw stones from the glass tower but people like Trump touch off a nerve --even those that are normally stoic and even keeled -- that could make people more susceptible to emotional outburst. 

 

To listen to Trump and his hateful speech is bad enough. To witness people actually cheering him on, and have a not-so insignificant portion of the population voting for him is very distressing for me.

 

I've been discriminated against due to my ethnic background --from the way I speak, to the way I look. I've been called a monkey and told to go back to the jungle. I'm a first generation immigrant. It's significantly better now but to deny that there are still plenty of racist, xenophobic scumbags around and to not refute them is just not going to happen. Having racial epithets thrown on my face is damn well going to set me off.  Some people crossed the line both ways.

 

Now put yourself in those shoes. You're at a rally to protest a group of people are lionizing a man who says that your people are criminals and rapists. Then you get into arguments with these same people. Maybe bad words are exchanged and then racially charged bad words are exchanged. Emotions run high, no? 

[Hurlshort]

I'm 24, today is my "back in the day". Low wages and fighting 50 other college graduates for a bad job is KY reality.

 

Yeah, and you don't have to worry about being drafted, you get to go to college regardless of your parents education, and you get to live tweet the entire thing to the world.  

 

Aren't you even in a biracial relationship?  How easy do you think that was 50 years ago?

 

edit:  You can legally smoke pot in a growing amount of states!  Alcohol was illegal less than a century ago.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Hurlshot

[Malcador]

I'm 24, today is my "back in the day". Low wages and fighting 50 other college graduates for a bad job is my reality.

Hm, so pretty much the same situation 16 years ago.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

I'm 24, today is my "back in the day". Low wages and fighting 50 other college graduates for a bad job is KY reality.

 

 

Yeah, and you don't have to worry about being drafted, you get to go to college regardless of your parents education, and you get to live tweet the entire thing to the world.  

 

Aren't you even in a biracial relationship?  How easy do you think that was 50 years ago?

And that college is what a high school education was to my parents, except it's so expensive my peers are in crippling debt to get it. And the jobs available when they're done don't pay well enough for then to sustainably pay off the debt. And all this is assuming that the latest trade deal or H-1b visa doesn't allow our mastersglorious job creators to pay some poor fellows from thirdworldistan a starvation wage even less than mine while I get let go.

 

"Muh iPhone" is a hollow concession to this economic reality.

[Hurlshort]

You skipped the draft and the racial stuff. 

 

I'm the first to admit we need some economic overhaul moving forward.  I'm part of the shrinking middle class.  I can't buy a home.  These things suck.  Yet we still aren't close to the Great Depression.  We aren't fighting World Wars, we aren't moments away from a Nuclear Holocaust, in fact we are much safer in a dozen different ways.  Cheer the heck up, you are going to be fine.

[Enoch]

 

I suppose we can just hope for gridlock.

I've been saying for years this is the best possible outcome. No one gets screwed when the government can't move.

 

Oh, there are a million ways that people can get screwed by inaction, too.  Expiration of authorizations, disaster relief, annual spending bills, the whole debt limit fiasco, etc. 

 

This logic made more sense before the political polarization of the last 20-ish years.  Divided government used to ensure compromise, and allow for significant change only when there was broad agreement that it was quite necessary (e.g., the '86 re-write of the tax code).  Now, even things that are broadly acknowledged as necessary don't get done, to prevent the other side from "getting credit" for it, and you have a significant rump of nihilists in one party willing to go so far as to hold a gun to the head of the global economy (i.e., threaten Treasury default) just to prove how badass they are.

 

 

(Also, I presume you'll be voting for Hillary, then?    The GOP's advantage in the state-by-state gerrymandering game pretty much locks the House in their column until the next Census, so you'll need a Democrat in the White House to preserve your desired state of affairs...)

[Guard Dog]

 

 

I suppose we can just hope for gridlock.

I've been saying for years this is the best possible outcome. No one gets screwed when the government can't move.

 

Oh, there are a million ways that people can get screwed by inaction, too.  Expiration of authorizations, disaster relief, annual spending bills, the whole debt limit fiasco, etc. 

 

This logic made more sense before the political polarization of the last 20-ish years.  Divided government used to ensure compromise, and allow for significant change only when there was broad agreement that it was quite necessary (e.g., the '86 re-write of the tax code).  Now, even things that are broadly acknowledged as necessary don't get done, to prevent the other side from "getting credit" for it, and you have a significant rump of nihilists in one party willing to go so far as to hold a gun to the head of the global economy (i.e., threaten Treasury default) just to prove how badass they are.

 

 

(Also, I presume you'll be voting for Hillary, then?    The GOP's advantage in the state-by-state gerrymandering game pretty much locks the House in their column until the next Census, so you'll need a Democrat in the White House to preserve your desired state of affairs...)

 

 You know better than that! I'm voting for Gary Johnson. Someone has to.Clinton or Trump will be the next President but not with my help! As long as Congress is divided and the President is weak I'll sleep batter. Although you are right gridlocked government isn't a good thing, it's just the lesser of two evils. 

[Bartimaeus]

 I don't know why you are trying to call me out on being a hypocrite which seemingly originated on my "irreverent" posting of a link to the betting markets on a Clinton indictment with the statement that there is good value (better than 3 to 1) in betting "Yes" if one is "absolutely" sure that Clinton would be getting indicted. I was being cheeky and I would think Longknife and others thought so.

 

You then made it a point to state that Longknife didn't say "absolutely sure" as if his point went over my head. I then made an explicitly sarcastic response (I even stated I was being sarcastic)  stating that I understood Longknife's point with my basic command of English and that I was explicitly being irreverent.

 

Then days later, out of context, you quoted my basic command of English post that I missed GD's point. I quoted GD''s specific paragraph because I took specific exception to my interpretation of his equating being insulted (his words)/victimized (my words) by Obama and that he and people like him aren't animals for protesting violently.  Admittedly, that touched a nerve and forced me to respond to that specific point without tempering myself.  

 

Now, if you're going into OCD mode over semantics and/or my command of the English language, then mea culpa --I can't help you. Because it seems to me that you're not debating me as opposed to taking cheap shots at me.

 

Yes, I do think it's a little hypocritical to call my post a "potshot" based on the context of your own post just earlier...but saying that that's "the pot calling the kettle black" doesn't mean I disagree with the classification of it being a "potshot" - I actually think it rather implies the opposite. My post was definitely to poke fun at the fact that you'd just got done ribbing me for, more or less - and mostly in your words - thinking that you don't have a basic understanding/command of the English language...and then went on a small (but kinda crazy) tangent/potshot post of your own on a point Guard Dog wasn't even really making, especially if you read the additional context that you removed from his post (and which I felt was further confirmed by the replies he made after). Like I said, though, you sorted out the thing I was taking issue to with Guard Dog already, which makes this additional arguing about it kinda superfluous at best.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Bartimaeus

[ShadySands]

 

 

I'm 24, today is my "back in the day". Low wages and fighting 50 other college graduates for a bad job is KY reality.

Yeah, and you don't have to worry about being drafted, you get to go to college regardless of your parents education, and you get to live tweet the entire thing to the world.

 

Aren't you even in a biracial relationship? How easy do you think that was 50 years ago?

 

edit: You can legally smoke pot in a growing amount of states! Alcohol was illegal less than a century ago.

I dunno. I've also seen a lot of articles and studies about millennials having it harder economically. I'm not old enough to speak for the last 60 years but from what I've seen and heard I absolutely believe it is harder now than it was for my parents generation.

[Leferd]

 

 

I'm 24, today is my "back in the day". Low wages and fighting 50 other college graduates for a bad job is KY reality.

Yeah, and you don't have to worry about being drafted, you get to go to college regardless of your parents education, and you get to live tweet the entire thing to the world.

 

Aren't you even in a biracial relationship? How easy do you think that was 50 years ago?

 

edit: You can legally smoke pot in a growing amount of states! Alcohol was illegal less than a century ago.

I dunno. I've also seen a lot of articles and studies about millennials having it harder economically. I'm not old enough to speak for the last 60 years but from what I've seen and heard I absolutely believe it is harder now than it was for my parents generation.

 

 

Unemployment in the last 60 years

 

 

Unemployment has been steadily declining since the start of the Obama administration.

 

 

Home Ownership

 

 

http://www.census.gov/housing/hvs/files/currenthvspress.pdf

 

Homeownership took a massive nosedive since the subprime mortgage crisis, approaching back to 1995 levels.

 

Consumer Price Index

 

 

The CPI has been rising steadily. Things get more expensive through the years.

 

 

U.S. Inflation 

 

 

Like CPI, Inflation has been steady...except for that precipitous drop in 08. 

[Bartimaeus]

Every time I see unemployment numbers on reddit, I also always see analysis why the unemployment numbers given by the feds are useless, including the number of part-time jobs vs. full-time jobs, the number of people being payed actual living wages, the number of people who are still looking for a job vs. those whom the government now considers to have totally given up looking for a job (the latter of which aren't counted, for both good and bad reasons), and probably some other stuff that I'm forgetting. The end conclusion always seems to be, "Things aren't nearly as good as they're saying they are..."

 

...The truth of which feels rather self-evident to me, but of course, I'm a younger person with a very, very limited perspective on our economic history, so that means little,

[Leferd]

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Leferd

[Longknife]

I always though the "millenials have it harder" thing was referring to the fact that more and more is being demanded of people as time goes on. AKA 100 years ago just finishing high school was great, 50 years ago college education was a nice boost, 20 years ago it was highly recommended for a better job, and today there's more positions that'll downright scoff at a Bachelor's for not being a full Master's degree. Humanity is moving forward and improving, but unfortunately that demands more and more from workers since competition is high, and the fact that globalization is occuring and it's no longer as difficult for Mr. 5-star perfect scores Valedictorian from Japan to fly all the way over to Madrid and compete with the star student there, yeah, there's some degree of more being expected. I don't think it's that unemployment itself got more problematic, but rather that competition is so strong these days that you see more and more people with degrees working jobs they're absolutely overqualified for simply because enough competition knocked them out of a proper position, and hell yeah it's frustrating to study a topic for years and then wind up managing a McDonald's or something.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Let me ask you something and be honest. Trump has ignited in some parts of the USA real anger and violence through his words ...in fact even if you not angry with him this has got to be the most unexpected and interesting but also divisive election the USA has ever seen

 

Do you really think this was necessary? Do you really think the USA needed this type of negative political outcomes? And if you do please tell me what the benefit it from Trump and his words ? 

 

If I may opine on this point. Barack Obama has called people very much like me bitter, small minded, he says I cling to guns and religion because I'm afraid of people who don't look like me. He has insulted my religion when he spoke at Georgetown last year. He has insulted an organization I belong to, the VFW. He said people like me were incapable of thinking for ourselves. He has openly insulted my patriotisim and believes I am a likely terrorist because of my military service.

 

 

GD I also find many of these accusations against Obama  hard to believe, can you produce any links? I just prefer to read these types of charges in my own time?

[Gfted1]

You unemployed bums ( ) should go join the military. Get an average or better score on the ASVAB, and youre guaranteed three hots and a cot for life, with vocational training thrown on top!

[Guard Dog]

 

 

 

Let me ask you something and be honest. Trump has ignited in some parts of the USA real anger and violence through his words ...in fact even if you not angry with him this has got to be the most unexpected and interesting but also divisive election the USA has ever seen

 

Do you really think this was necessary? Do you really think the USA needed this type of negative political outcomes? And if you do please tell me what the benefit it from Trump and his words ? 

 

If I may opine on this point. Barack Obama has called people very much like me bitter, small minded, he says I cling to guns and religion because I'm afraid of people who don't look like me. He has insulted my religion when he spoke at Georgetown last year. He has insulted an organization I belong to, the VFW. He said people like me were incapable of thinking for ourselves. He has openly insulted my patriotisim and believes I am a likely terrorist because of my military service.

 

 

GD I also find many of these accusations against Obama  hard to believe, can you produce any links? I just prefer to read these types of charges in my own time?

 

Have you read nothing I've linked here the last seven years?

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Let me ask you something and be honest. Trump has ignited in some parts of the USA real anger and violence through his words ...in fact even if you not angry with him this has got to be the most unexpected and interesting but also divisive election the USA has ever seen

 

Do you really think this was necessary? Do you really think the USA needed this type of negative political outcomes? And if you do please tell me what the benefit it from Trump and his words ? 

 

If I may opine on this point. Barack Obama has called people very much like me bitter, small minded, he says I cling to guns and religion because I'm afraid of people who don't look like me. He has insulted my religion when he spoke at Georgetown last year. He has insulted an organization I belong to, the VFW. He said people like me were incapable of thinking for ourselves. He has openly insulted my patriotisim and believes I am a likely terrorist because of my military service.

 

 

GD I also find many of these accusations against Obama  hard to believe, can you produce any links? I just prefer to read these types of charges in my own time?

 

Have you read nothing I've linked here the last seven years?

 

Well I have only been active since 2012...Im surprised you forgot this, wasn't 2012 the beginning of the greatest era you have ever experienced on these forums 

[BruceVC]

You unemployed bums ( ) should go join the military. Get an average or better score on the ASVAB, and youre guaranteed three hots and a cot for life, with vocational training thrown on top!

Gfted1 this MUST  be the most relevant post you have ever made....people must join the military if they are unemployed

 

In fact I would support new legislation that if anyone was unemployed for 6 months or longer they are immediately conscripted into the marines or similar unit. Two years in the Middle East will work wonders for patriotism