Is a barbarian worth it?

[Kingsman]

I have replayed this game probably 10 times from start to finish on path of the dammed with a whole range of classes but every time in roll a barbarian I become greatly disappointed and cancel my play through and start again without a barbarian.

 

From what I can tell a barb is a complete one trick poney. The only useful talent he has is carnage. Now seriously I think carnage is a complete waste of time.

 

I will explain why in this following paragraph and I hope all the barbarian lovers out there will read it carefully before coming to there beloved barbs rescue.

 

Take this analysis of a barbarian who is surrounded by three say ogres vs a rogue who is surrounded by three ogres:

 

- the barbarians is built around dishing out damage to mobs (with reduced accuracy and damage) via carnage. So a barb vs three ogres will attack the three ogres and hopefully land secondary hits with its carnage abilities.

 

- a rogue is built around doing extremely high single target damage via crits, sneak attacks and deathblows. This damage is reliable and almost never misses unlike the barbs primary attack and the barbs secondary attacks via carnage.

 

- now there is an argument there on the barbs side that it may be possible for the barb to dish out more combined damage to the three ogres via its carnage ability vs the rogues singe target. This may be true but is proven flawed and I think fatal for one reason: the rogue will kill of individual ogres faster therefore leaving less ogres to attack back. For example while the barbarian is dishing out its damage equally amongst three ogres the rogues has already killed one ogre and is copping less hits as a result. The barbs carnage is almost all ways negated by damage reduction anyway.

 

I've tried every possible way to make a barb viable but they just don't compare in strength to any other melee character. They are at the very bottom of the list for melee forward projecting power. Mainly for the reason i mentioned above. There is no point spreading your damage out amongst all your enemies if they won't die as quick as being targeted singularly.

[Elric Galad]

There's a lot of thread on this forum about barbarian one trick ponyness and being slightly UP (I'm the author of several of them and I used "one trick pony expression a hundred times on these threads), but I don't think Rogue is their main problem.

 

Rogue DPS is a bit less conditonal, it's true, but they are also even more squishy. Barbarian can be an ok off-tank.

 

The consensus on this forum seems to be Barbarian and Rogue being a bit UP, especially because of bad or meh high level abilities.

 

The winner foe pure martial DPS seems to be the ranger, because of twin arrows, stunning shots and 2.0 pets. (I won't call "pure martial DPS" other class like monks, fighters, druids, ciphers)

[Kingsman]

There's a lot of thread on this forum about barbarian one trick ponyness and being slightly UP (I'm the author of several of them and I used "one trick pony expression a hundred times on these threads), but I don't think Rogue is their main problem.

Rogue DPS is a bit less conditonal, it's true, but they are also even more squishy. Barbarian can be an ok off-tank.

The consensus on this forum seems to be Barbarian and Rogue being a bit UP, especially because of bad or meh high level abilities.

The winner foe pure martial DPS seems to be the ranger, because of twin arrows, stunning shots and 2.0 pets. (I won't call "pure martial DPS" other class like monks, fighters, druids, ciphers)

The rogue is less squishy then a barb and I gave a very clear explanation why in my opening post. Read it again:)

[Fenixp]

The rogue is less squishy then a barb and I gave a very clear explanation why in my opening post. Read it again:)

Individually possibly, but not when taken in context of a full group. Barb will quite simply soak up more damage while other group members dish it out - I guess that's why Elric called barb an off-tank. At any rate, I'd say barbarians are just highly situational, much moreso than other classes which are a lot more dynamic - they're mostly useful when they can tie up a large amount of trash mobs in combat, which is a situation in which barbs excel. And... That's about it, really. They're also kinda amazing at procing crit effects when you manage to get their acc high enough.

Edited April 23, 2016 by Fenixp

[house2fly]

A barb is a lot of fun at higher levels because they get that jump smash ability.  Starting a battle with frenzy>jump attack behind a group of enemies>barbaric blow is a really satisfying rhythm.  Not as fun as monks admittedly, who get an ability that throws enemies like 10m away from them, a lifesaver if you're pinned down.

[falchen]

You are missing the thing that makes the barbarians "one trick" work, which is giving them weapon/s with spells or on hits to trigger of all those carnage hits. You want to give them something like the grey sleeper or unlabored blade for it to really shine.

Edited April 23, 2016 by falchen

[indika_tates]

Do you want to try a funny barbarian build?

 

A human barbarian with (base)

19 Mig

9 Con

18 Dex

3 Per

19 Int

10 Res

 

Equipment: Resolution or Gaun's share + Medium shield (Dragon's maw late game). Larder's door is fine at the beginning but I hate how it looks. Sanguine plate + shod in faith for eternal frenzy/healing. Late game there are a bunch of options because you don't restrict yourself to a specific equipment. Every weapon works but those with graze to hit conversion are the best one.

 

Talents: One handed style (30% graze conversion) + Savage attack + Apprentice sneak attack + Vulnerable attack + Bloodlust + Savage defiance. This is the basic pack.

 

The trick of this build is that with zealous focus (15% graze conversion + 30% from flail + 30% from talent you have a whooping 75% graze to hit conversion). Yes, your accuracy is horrible. But it doesn't matter as long as you graze. Fighting spirit helps a lot. And it's very easy to activate. Wait until you endurance drops to 50% then activate savage defiance. Landing a graze is not too hard. Nature's mark, expose vulnerabilities, +6 accuracy from zealous focus is more than enough to graze everyone around you. This build begins to shine as soon as you can enchant resolution or gaun's share to +8 accuracy and +30% damage. With gaun's share you heal yourself about 20-30 per hit against multiple mobs.

 

One of the thing I like of this build is that you rotate your weapons and you adapt yourself to every encounter. Spirits? Yenwood. Low DR enemies? Resolution or Gaun's share. High DR ones? Ravenwing. And this is early game. Late game you have even better options.

 

The damage output is just insane (27% might + 20% savage attack + 15% Apprentice sneak attack + 30% weapon enchanment + 15% from fighting spirit)  * 1.25 from lash. And the attack rate of a fast weapon with 18+ Dex is really fast. You have about 120% damage late in the game and this is the point where fast weapons start to be a real menace to the foes. Of course against very high DR enemies this build suffer but there are a lot of ways of dealing with it.

 

Is a funny class to play and at the moment you get Dragon's maw this build is insanely OP at the point that is boring even on POTD.

Edited April 23, 2016 by indika_tates

[Blunderboss]

try building barbarian with Unlabored Blade and some kind of shield either bashing or retaliate , and then test him vs 3 ogres lol

Barbarians might need some light tuning especialy on their new abilities but comparing them to rogues is bad example because rogues arent great either

Edited April 23, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Elric Galad]

try building barbarian with Unlabored Blade and some kind of shield either bashing or retaliate , and then test him vs 3 ogres lol

Barbarians might need some light tuning especialy on their new abilities but comparing them to rogues is bad example because rogues arent great either

Totally agree with this. Furthermore, draining weapons are also fantastic on barbarian. Barbarian with tidefall never dies.

[Kingsman]

Your all completely ignoring the point that I made about a rogue bringing down individual enemies quicker and therefore being hit a lot less where as a barb will dish out damage in a spread out type of way where enemies will stay alive as a group and all die at around about the same time, this will result in the barb constantly getting hit throughout this process.

 

This is completely accurate. I have tried and tested this a thousand time. The game itself does not lie.

 

I challenge anyone to try and prove me wrong in regards to this point I have made

 

To further prove my point look at the way you play with your game style. You concentrate your damage of your group to individual enemies to try and bring them down quicker so less of them can attack you. The same theory can be applied to how a barbarian works. The computer AI thinks like this aswell.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Kingsman

[omgFIREBALLS]

Well, I could argue that while the rogue gets immediate results faster, the barbarian still reduces the risks over time. Sure, the rogue will kill one target faster. But maybe by the time the rogue has killed three the barbarian has killed seven. Now while the rogue's party got some threats immediately removed, they now still have four more to deal with than the barbarian's party.

 

However, that is my weaker argument. My stronger is: Tall Grass, the Pronepike. Need I introduce you?

[Elric Galad]

Circonstancial but incredibly powerful : barb with hallowed redeemer against vessels... now that's a way to reduce risk. Tested and approved as Concelhaut party kryptonite.

 

The point is : barbarian strongly relies on the weapon you choose. Various effects lead to various benefits.

[dunehunter]

All the new Spellchance items are best when wield by a Barbarian because of carnage. Yeah that is an undeniable truth that barbarians rely more on their class ability than other classes. And the Devs make the situation worse by implementing so many Spellchance weapons into the game, which I think is a bad idea.

Edited April 24, 2016 by dunehunter

[Blunderboss]

You guys talking like "rogue does not rely on its class ability" rogue is nothing without debuffs on target , 

furthermore rogues need a party to put those debuffs for them , if you build them to do max damage they ends up being squishy and rely on party even more , 

Rogue has much harder time being useful in melee than barbarian imo , also barbarian with Unlabored Blade outdamages everyone which has been mentioned couple of times by now thus rendering the original post useless , no rogue wont kill even one character faster when barbarian is unleashing firebugs with every hit , the only situation where rogue will do more damage is when there is only one enemy left and this means fight is already long over . 

In general rogues needs tuning way more than barbarians , having ability like carnage makes barbarians very decent class in a game where all fights are about killing horde of enemies before they killed you 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Yosharian]

I do not recommend the Barbarian for any serious game (i.e. Hard/POTD) or if you like having a powerful character.  If you prefer to role-play and don't care that your character is underpowered, and you're playing on Normal or Easy, then go for it, because it's a very 'cool' character.  It's just not 'good' compared to the other classes.

 

That said there are a very extremely niche builds that can work 'ok'.

Edited April 24, 2016 by Yosharian

[MaxQuest]

I have replayed this game probably 10 times from start to finish on path of the dammed with a whole range of classes but every time in roll a barbarian I become greatly disappointed and cancel my play through and start again without a barbarian.

Ten complete potd runs denote that you have quite an experience with this game, which probably surpasses that of majority here.

 

You ask this question of worthiness. Yet, already have a quite firm opinion regarding current state of the class: "The only useful talent he has is carnage. Now seriously I think carnage is a complete waste of time.", not to mention that it's a quite sith way to put.

 

So what's your goal?

If you are really interested in community opinions, ok. The barbs worthiness is situational.

 

---

 

From a certain point of view, comparing barb with rogue is like comparing cucumbers with tomatoes. In the end it depends on the kind of salad you want to make.

 

For example, my current (potd, ironman) party consists of: warbow cipher, blasting wizard, ranged priest, melee cipher. paladin main tank, and a barbarian, because of the great synergy he has with the rest of the group. It's kind of obvious, but I will list a few interactions:

- barb squishiness is not a problem due to two ciphers with paralyzes and charms on per-encounter base. Not to mention the overall amount of buffs available to this party

- painful interdiction + threatening presence, greatly reduce enemy will/fort, allowing for easier and longer stuns, paralyses and charms

- above + brute force: is not just more crits, but more procs from stunning weapons; + Dire Blessing

- barb does greatly benefit from might buffs and DR debuffs

- barbaric blow / heart of fury + petrification

- above + reaping knives

- dragon leap + double echo

- dragon leap + chained amplified wave

- barb high endurance/health + pain link, if I'll happen to need it

- ability to switch from frontline to mid with tall grass during passage blockings

- aditional weapon versatility: stunning weapons / unlabored blade + non-bashing small shield / unlabored blade + dragon's maw

- etc

 

With ciphers I already have enough of single target damage. Dragons are not a problem with double disintegration. For ogre druids there is charm. And for melee ogres/eyeless there is paralysis vs will. So all I needed was lazy AoE vs hoards of easier mobs. Thus the last spot went to barbarian over rogue. And because the party is cc-heavy, it also went to barbarian over monk, as that one could potentially end often starving on wounds.

 

TL.DR: in certain party compositions, barbarians actually are worthy.

Edited April 24, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Blunderboss]

I do not recommend the Barbarian for any serious game (i.e. Hard/POTD) or if you like having a powerful character. If you prefer to role-play and don't care that your character is underpowered, and you're playing on Normal or Easy, then go for it, because it's a very 'cool' character. It's just not 'good' compared to the other classes.

 

That said there are a very extremely niche builds that can work 'ok'.

Haha , you are full of ****

Your inability to play some class on potd doesnt mean its not good lol , barbarians hold their own on potd as good or sometimes even better as any other class

Not even talking of your stupid mention of "Hard" which is a joke

Well built barb probably can solo Hard with AI on and you afk .

Edited April 24, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Yosharian]

 

I do not recommend the Barbarian for any serious game (i.e. Hard/POTD) or if you like having a powerful character. If you prefer to role-play and don't care that your character is underpowered, and you're playing on Normal or Easy, then go for it, because it's a very 'cool' character. It's just not 'good' compared to the other classes.

 

That said there are a very extremely niche builds that can work 'ok'.

Haha , you are full of ****

Your inability to play some class on potd doeent mean its not good lol , barbarians hold their own on potd as good or sometimes even better as any other class

 

Well built barb probably can solo Hardmode with AI on and you afk .

 

Nope

[Blunderboss]

as i said before you are full of S H I T

[Kingsman]

 

I have replayed this game probably 10 times from start to finish on path of the dammed with a whole range of classes but every time in roll a barbarian I become greatly disappointed and cancel my play through and start again without a barbarian.

 

Ten complete potd runs denote that you have quite an experience with this game, which probably surpasses that of majority here.

 

You ask this question of worthiness. Yet, already have a quite firm opinion regarding current state of the class: "The only useful talent he has is carnage. Now seriously I think carnage is a complete waste of time.", not to mention that it's a quite sith way to put.

 

So what's your goal?

If you are really interested in community opinions, ok. The barbs worthiness is situational.

 

---

 

From a certain point of view, comparing barb with rogue is like comparing cucumbers with tomatoes. In the end it depends on the kind of salad you want to make.

 

For example, my current (potd, ironman) party consists of: warbow cipher, blasting wizard, ranged priest, melee cipher. paladin main tank, and a barbarian, because of the great synergy he has with the rest of the group. It's kind of obvious, but I will list a few interactions:

- barb squishiness is not a problem due to two ciphers with paralyzes and charms on per-encounter base. Not to mention the overall amount of buffs available to this party

- painful interdiction + threatening presence, greatly reduce enemy will/fort, allowing for easier and longer stuns, paralyses and charms

- above + brute force: is not just more crits, but more procs from stunning weapons; + Dire Blessing

- barb does greatly benefit from might buffs and DR debuffs

- barbaric blow / heart of fury + petrification

- above + reaping knives

- dragon leap + double echo

- dragon leap + chained amplified wave

- barb high endurance/health + pain link, if I'll happen to need it

- ability to switch from frontline to mid with tall grass during passage blockings

- aditional weapon versatility: stunning weapons / unlabored blade + non-bashing small shield / unlabored blade + dragon's maw

- etc

 

With ciphers I already have enough of single target damage. Dragons are not a problem with double disintegration. For ogre druids there is charm. And for melee ogres/eyeless there is paralysis vs will. So all I needed was lazy AoE vs hoards of easier mobs. Thus the last spot went to barbarian over rogue. And because the party is cc-heavy, it also went to barbarian over monk, as that one could potentially end often starving on wounds.

 

TL.DR: in certain party compositions, barbarians actually are worthy.

My goal to put it simply is to find synergies and builds with all classes that become powerful. I have found it with the druid with storm spells; rogue with insane dps: cipher with amplified wave: ranger with stormcaller; wizard with crowd control; priest with buffs.

 

Fighters are quite balanced but fighter abydons hammer build is powerfull. that only leaves the barbarian as the last melee class. Because of this I have kept coming back to them to try and make them work but I always regret it and roll a fighter or a pally instead.

 

Having said this I have not tried the barb with unlabored blade carnage build, how effective is this? Can I you guys share your thoughts on how powerful a barb build like this can be? Thanks

[MaxQuest]

Having said this I have not tried the barb with unlabored blade carnage build, how effective is this? Can I you guys share your thoughts on how powerful a barb build like this can be? Thanks

Well, lets theorycraft.

At zero recovery, barbarian with that dagger and non-bashing shield will hit every 27 frames with his main hand.

At let's say 16 DEX, it gonna be every ~23 frames.

 

With various buffs and talents, we can expect him to have his acc at least by 15 higher than enemy's def/fort.

With One-Handed Style, he is going to hit-or-crit 75.5% of the time.

 

At 10% proc rate, barb will generate a firebug on average every 23/0.755/0.1 = 304 frames or once in 10 seconds, when attacking a single target with no carnage neighbors. Also we need to note that this is the worst case scenario, as the firebug needs at least two targets to bounce.

 

So:

- against 1 target + 0 carnage neighbors: 1 firebug hit every 10s

- against 1 target + 1 carnage neighbor : 8 firebug hits every 5s

- against 1 target + 3 carnage neighbors: 8 firebug hits every 2.5s

And so on.

 

With high Might and Scion of Flame, each firebug hit has potential to deal over 100 dmg.

Having 800 burning damage proc every 2.5s, from just auto-attacking for sure is nice.

Edited April 25, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Blunderboss]

You can also equip barbarian with : Binding Rope , Executioners Hood and get him Threatening Presence - this will make sure all enemies near you are debuffed greatly .

 

You can then stack 3 sources of retaliate : 1 From armor Items , 1 From Shield ( and as we are not using Bashing shield Surras Supper Plate is the winner ) , 1 From Barbaric Retaliation , you can sweeten this by using Fire Shield potion .

 

All this adds to incredible power of Unlabored Blade , then your barbarian is walking death machine .

 

In my current playtrough i have no priest so sometimes i decide to not use Scroll against Charmed and Dominated against easy fights , if barbarian gets dominated my party dies in 2 seconds all of them just dead

Only fights where this barbarian have some trouble are against dragons , but then again you can perfectly use him to tank all the Adds dragons have meanwhile rest of your party deals with the drake 

Edited April 25, 2016 by Blunderboss

[Kingsman]

Thanks guys. Love your work I'm rolling a barb.

[Rheios]

Might want to note that it looks like the 3rd level of the blade does take some power through as it suddenly grabs the Terrible Condition until 1500 slash damage is accrued.
Isn't worth stopping the build over but you may want to plan ahead for an easy way to jet through that step

[rheingold]

Not sure about anyone else, but for me a rogue against 3 ogres is a Shakespearean tragedy. Yes they do loads of damage and kill enemies quickly before they get a chance to damage the rogue. But a rogue shines against one on one opponents. Against 3 ogres I seriously doubt it would kill even one before it hit the dirt. A barbarian with tall grass on the other hand will stand a very good chance of surviving against many opponents. And will add crowd control.

If you make the rogue tankier ie, by giving it a shield, its dps drops considerably.

They both have their own unique function and work well within their limits.

 

Carnage is a bit of a one trick pony, but what a trick! Frankly it's one of the most powerful abilities. And I have found that using a barb with prone on crit to be the best and most reliable form of crowd control. Before anyone comments about wizards and druids.... obviously they are great but I try to rest as little as possible so a barb with tall grass and a stormcaller ranger work fantastically well.

 

Finally you only feel rogues and barbs are slightly underpowered on POTD. On any other difficulty a well built barb is absolutely insane.