Quality of the new class skills

[Francis Ironwood]

Engagement based? Think they improved the enemy ai to ignore engagement from tanks to get to squishies (they just soak your disengagement attack). So nowadays making someone who actually utilizes the engagement is pretty hard.

 

edit: Defender was also nerfed and it's basically a joke nowadays. -5 deflection(yes that's a malus to your deflection) +2 engagement. Not sure if you stopped before that so just thought i'd mention it.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Francis Ironwood

[AndreaColombo]

What I don't like about that is that while Rangers are good for ranged DPS, they are also extremely capable in melee, and you can easily make a very good melee ranger build. Rangers, at the end of the day, play like.. rangers. Obviously. Melee or ranged, a ranger always plays like a ranger, and it'll always be vaguely nature-based and have a pet.

A Fighter, though, will practically always be melee and engagement-based. The reason I've supported more ranged support for Fighters in the past was because I wanted to be able to build a combat/soldier-esque archer archetype.

 

I see your point.

 

Fighters haven't changed much in that regard; they are still a comparatively low-maintenance melee class. You can build them defensively or offensively, even though Defender was nerfed into oblivion a few patches ago and that left many tanky-fighter fans bitter.

 

Oh, and Francis is right: Tank-and-spank isn't much of a thing anymore since 2.0 dropped. A.I. will often disengage to reach your squishy characters in the back line. Tbh, overall I think the game has come a long way since its release. Not saying it's perfect, but still a long way—very enjoyable now.

[cavemandiary]

 

Lastly, yes I read that part, but still, seems situational. The charmed/dominated teammate still has to hit the paladin, and not any of the other 4 party members, to make it work right?

No, your Paladin just needs to smack them with his weapon and it'll instantly remove the condition.

 

In that case i misunderstood. Still, not sure if I would pick it, but I will try it out..

[Luckmann]

Engagement based? Think they improved the enemy ai to ignore engagement from tanks to get to squishies (they just soak your disengagement attack). So nowadays making someone who actually utilizes the engagement is pretty hard.

 

edit: Defender was also nerfed and it's basically a joke nowadays. -5 deflection(yes that's a malus to your deflection) +2 engagement. Not sure if you stopped before that so just thought i'd mention it.

 

I did. And really, a Talent named Defender that drops your Deflection? That's.. odd.

[MaxQuest]

Regarding Reaping Knives and Carnage, if it wasn't tested already: have just checked it and confirming that cipher gets focus from carnage hits.

And that focus gain also fully benefits from the draining whip talent.

[dudex]

the cipher skills are nice but they come into play so late in the game by then u prob have a dozen or so overpowered spells and weapons. i think the rogue, fighter, and monk skills are extremely useful at level 7.

[cavemandiary]

the cipher skills are nice but they come into play so late in the game by then u prob have a dozen or so overpowered spells and weapons. i think the rogue, fighter, and monk skills are extremely useful at level 7.

Well there is no denying that.

Some classes are great early (looking at you druid), while others need more time to power up.

[Gs11]

I've question about Barbaric Blow:

 

-in 3.01 it says, that crit multipliers no longer works for carnage

- but AoE should still works as 1,25 effect, though when I test cursor area attack, I see no difffrence between normal attack and  attack from Barbaric Blow

 

does it really works ?

[theBalthazar]

Barbarian is extremely WEAK at high level, now. (low level = ok, the base talent (carnage) is nice for dps... but after level 9... its very weak).

 

The new talents does nothing. Its catastrophic. For AoE attacks, go wizards or Druid.

 

Top tiers :

 

1 - Druid

2 - Cipher

3 - Priest

 

Middle :

 

4 - Wizard

5 - Ranger

6 - Chanter

 

Bad :

 

7 - Rogue

8 - Fighter

9 - Monk

10 - Paladin

11 - Barbarian

Edited March 4, 2016 by theBalthazar

[DreamWayfarer]

@theBalthazar:

 

You ranked Monks and Paladins as bad. While all classes you ranked as bad are viable and effective, if not downright OP when built well, those two are so strong your ranking lost the little meaning it had.

[Teioh_White]

Well, that's certainly one way to look at it, theBs, heh. I wouldn't agree, of course.

 

Game still seems much the same to me as it did in 2.0. The casters sit on the top being overpowered, Cipher chills in the middle, maybe Chanter can join him if you don't mind spamming scrolls, and the rest of the classes are all nice mostly balanced with each other, all have their own niche.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Teioh_White

[Jac]

Is there a list of all of these somewhere? The wiki is horribly outdated.

I have some experience editing a wiki so I'll be adding pages for the new spells as I can. Speaking of which, does anybody have any icons I can put up for the missing ones? Thanks.

 

You ranked Monks and Paladins as bad. While all classes you ranked as bad are viable and effective, if not downright OP when built well, those two are so strong your ranking lost the little meaning it had.

I agree. From my experience fighters are still very viable. Edited March 5, 2016 by Jac

[theBalthazar]

Monks : In fact , the monk is very effective on most monsters, but requires only to hit ONE person, and "playing bad" ( getting hit ). Not my philosophy.

 

For a team-play, a petrification/paralyse/stun and the ennemies not deal damage to the monk !

 

So... Its a problem... And this guy deal damage to only one person... I prefer the druid transfo in this case. Highter damage for a little time + storm level 5.

 

------------------------

 

Fighter : Yeah, all the class are still very viable. But the fighter is ...ordinary. It is not "good" in any field. A tank ? I prefer Paladin. The bonus of defenses is stable. One prone target ? Lol, wizard/Druid do better.

 

In this game, a tank is not useful. In start/mid game, he dies quick for a tank. Endgame ? We have enough firepower to dispense.

 

------------------------

 

I agree with you for Cipher. I hesitated with the wizard. I think in the end game the list is :

 

1 - Druid

2 - Priest

3 - Wizard

 

Middle :

 

4 - Cipher

5 - Ranger

6 - Chanter

 

Bad :

 

7 - Rogue

8 - Paladin

9 - Fighter

10 - Monk

11 - Barbarian

 

-----------------

 

For Barbarian, one of the bigger problem is : Heart of the fury. 

 

the only power which is nice. = 1/rest. Lol... During this time, Rogue have a +30 % damage +stun by ENCOUNTER.

as if the barbarian needed that ...

 

Echoing shot = lol, I have test, the things is unusable in practice. Worst : hurt allies, if you not pay attention.

 

Barbaric retaliation = Ok, but when you are level 15... its very very light. 10? damages point IF you are hurt... youpi..

 

Dragon leap = totally useless. Equal to normal damage with the same area of effect of carnage. The only good thing is jump where you want.

 

The poor Barbarian is the worst class.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Wolken3156]

Bad :

 

7 - Rogue

Rogues bad? what

[theBalthazar]

For 90 % of the game, rogues are too slow/powerful for one target.

 

 

To optimize in a team-play , you need a fast melee weapon. But he attacks only one target. Its a good class, but overall (classification of classes), for me, its middle/bad.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[AndreaColombo]

So basically any class that doesn't do AoE DPS isn't good for you?

[theBalthazar]

No. Wizard is great in this role (end game obviously).

 

Even the priest is better in DPS than Barbarian in the end game ! How its possible ? : p

 

The barbarian is inconceivably weak.

 

Rogues is a dragon or ogres killer... extremely effective against "hp bag" if you prefer. So, rogues is powerful, but with slow weapons, DPS is wasted, mostly.

 

In a team-play of course. In a TCS, its different.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Teioh_White]

Well, he's not entirely wrong. I think it's more an issue of calling that tier 'bad'. Caster's are just overpowered in this game, and really, in most every game of this style. Just how it is. Compared to a Wizard? Yeah, a Rogue or a Barbarian isn't that great. But, that's how the games always been. Casters at the top, martial all pretty well balanced with each other below, and the semi casters in the middle being all balanced and crap.

 

He's a bit wrong in the whole 'barb is awful' thing, as it's just fine if your baseline isn't the class that kills everything in big circle, at range, without them ever getting the chance to fight back. (Barbs actually play pretty well with casters; they have the highest DPS of the martial classes, and clean up a group of CC'd things like no one's bizniz. Or you could just rest as the game intends and have the casters blow it up themselves.)

 

Not that you can't play the game just fine on PotD with all martial classes; it's how I tend to play, as the casters both make the game too easy, and increase micro, neither of which I want.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Teioh_White

[theBalthazar]

have the highest DPS of the martial classes

 

 

Not totally true. Under my estimation, 3 -close- ennemies are required for efficiency of barbarian. If not, Ranger is clearly better.

 

And its a problem when you have foes casters and that the enemies are scattered.

 

When you have a "complex fight" (ogres, casters), barbarian are useless. When you have a simple fight with many small ennemies (favorite work of the class), barbarian are not useful. Ranger can do the work perfectly.

 

Also, status effects are all bad :

 

Barbaric shoot and yell, dragon leap (dazed ? The worst statut effect...)

 

Excuse-me but the barbarian can't minima stun ennemies ? It would have been perfect for him, and totally RP. ("strengh" of his body for that)

 

With the hidden books in the snow (WM1), wizard wins Paralyse + damage of fire ball, cold version++. Paralyse on a great area... (one of the best power in the entirely game)

 

It is incomprehensible that the barbarian is so weak.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Teioh_White]

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but damn near every fight in this game has 3+ enemies grouped up. The 'complex' fights? Also full of trash. (Normally 2-3 random dorks to every caster mob). It's very much the exception that there's not a ton of crap running at you, and even more rare it's a bunch of enemies all spread out from each other and not clumping up on their own. And if it's some weird pack of archers? Barb's immune to engagement and/or can teleport a bit, so it won't have any trouble being near a group of enemies.

 

Properly built, once something gets caught in a Barb's Carnage, it'll be locked down unless something stops the Barb from attacking. That's pretty much barbs schtick; lock down and kill a 2.5m area of dorks. Doesn't much matter the dork, so long as it's in Carnage range. Casters of course do that schtick better and do much more beyond that, but again, they're overpowered. Nothing really holds a candle to them unless we're competing to see who can be the game with the fewest rests, and even then, they'd probably still pull it out.

[DreamWayfarer]

Monks : In fact , the monk is very effective on most monsters, but requires only to hit ONE person, and "playing bad" ( getting hit ). Not my philosophy.

 

For a team-play, a petrification/paralyse/stun and the ennemies not deal damage to the monk !

 

So... Its a problem... And this guy deal damage to only one person... I prefer the druid transfo in this case. Highter damage for a little time + storm level 5.

If your monk isn't taking damage at all, you are just face-rolling the game either way and the only thing that matters is how fast you clean up the trash. Which Barbs do very fast.

 

EDIT: and monks do have nice, spammable AoE. Torment's Reach.

 

And your ranking seems to be based purely on your own playstyle, and not take into account tatics that are not "unload all your spells in a single fight, CC first, damage later". At least, that is the only way I can explain how you rank Monks and Paladins so low, and think Ciphers are only medium-tier.

 

Ps: your explanation of why Fighters are supposedly mediocre focuses purely on tanking, so I assume you haven't built a damage dealing Fighter. Take a look at the "Glass Tsunami", or the "Lady of Pain", or for a tankier build, the " Engineer". Fighters are awesome.

Edited March 5, 2016 by DreamWayfarer

[theBalthazar]

 and not take into account tatics that are not "unload all your spells in a single fight, CC first, damage later".

 

 

This is my way of playing, yes, indeed. But often, I return to the tavern without having used all my power , therefore I spam without problem.

 

The time to debuff and co, is very small. After that : I optimize the damage.

 

I try to finish the fight as fast as possible. C.C. its a tool for that. I play tight with resolve 3. C.C. = damage, with - deflection.

 

Efflectively, the monk have torment's reach. But it needs 2 wounds no ? 1 wound.

 

If your monk isn't taking damage at all, you are just face-rolling the game either way and the only thing that matters is how fast you clean up the trash. Which Barbs do very fast.

 

 

Barbarian in this case do a good job. But not the best, and only if there is a good mass of ennemies.

 

My two priest have a certain power... overtime. (Level 4 ? the 128 on 13s ?) Its a purge in x2. 

 

Yes it will recharge all the "by rest" (wizard, druid and my two priest). But sincerely look when you return at tavern with a normal team. You return as often, or more !^^

 

The barbarian is atrociously weak, especially in end-game. At the start-mid game, its a good choice (not main character, obviously).

 

 

I'm not sure what game you're playing, but damn near every fight in this game has 3+ enemies grouped up. The 'complex' fights? Also full of trash. (Normally 2-3 random dorks to every caster mob). It's very much the exception that there's not a ton of crap running at you, and even more rare it's a bunch of enemies all spread out from each other and not clumping up on their own. And if it's some weird pack of archers? Barb's immune to engagement and/or can teleport a bit, so it won't have any trouble being near a group of enemies.

 

Properly built, once something gets caught in a Barb's Carnage, it'll be locked down unless something stops the Barb from attacking. That's pretty much barbs schtick; lock down and kill a 2.5m area of dorks. Doesn't much matter the dork, so long as it's in Carnage range. Casters of course do that schtick better and do much more beyond that, but again, they're overpowered. Nothing really holds a candle to them unless we're competing to see who can be the game with the fewest rests, and even then, they'd probably still pull it out.

 

 

For the numbers of ennemies, I spoke of Carnage.

 

There may be 5 enemies, if they are not in the wihthin range of carnage : it will not totally work at max potential.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Teioh_White]

But...they are in range. Most zones in this game are full of clumped mobs up close. Act 1? Fork, Temple, Keep, Meadow, Compass, Woods, Caed Nua all full of mobs clumped in melee range. Act 2? Crossing, Cult, Hill, Catacombs, Trails, Falls, Bluff, and most of Cilag all clumped in melee range. Gorge isn't great for it. Act 3? Bloodsands, Noonfrost, Maw, Elmshroud, Burial Hill, all loaded with it. Endless Paths? That's all it is by and large is crap for a barb to cut through.

 

WM? Ogre's tend to be too spaced out due to large size and lots of ranged units. Fish people always bring a heavy melee wall to cover their annoying archers and mages, so plenty of fodder there. And tons of Vessals in Gavino's shop up close. Battery? Tons of crap swarming there as well. Torn Bannerman not as good, most fights against fewer, but stronger foes. WM2? More Fish people in Cove, plenty of Swarming in battery, and plenty of dorks in the swamp. Also tons of Ondraians if you go the murder them all route. Not so many of the Eyeless, as they come in smaller numbers. And of course, the various Bounty quests are full of melee mobs to cover for the dangerous ones in the back.

 

So....I'm not seeing all these portions of the game where a Barb doesn't get to flex Carnage. You can hold it against Barb that it can't beat a caster, but thinking it can't dominate at large portions of the game is just a poor understanding of game mechanics.

[ottffsse]

What do you mean by optimize damage? I took a look at Maneha character profile and she is clocking at 1375 points of damage done per combat hour in my game. That and she dazes and disorients every enemy she hits while doing that amount of damage. Carnage is no problem as you want to group enemies up anyways for aoe effects like Carnage and spells.

[theBalthazar]

But...they are in range. Most zones in this game are full of clumped mobs up close. Act 1? Fork, Temple, Keep, Meadow, Compass, Woods, Caed Nua all full of mobs clumped in melee range. Act 2? Crossing, Cult, Hill, Catacombs, Trails, Falls, Bluff, and most of Cilag all clumped in melee range. Gorge isn't great for it. Act 3? Bloodsands, Noonfrost, Maw, Elmshroud, Burial Hill, all loaded with it. Endless Paths? That's all it is by and large is crap for a barb to cut through.

 

WM? Ogre's tend to be too spaced out due to large size and lots of ranged units. Fish people always bring a heavy melee wall to cover their annoying archers and mages, so plenty of fodder there. And tons of Vessals in Gavino's shop up close. Battery? Tons of crap swarming there as well. Torn Bannerman not as good, most fights against fewer, but stronger foes. WM2? More Fish people in Cove, plenty of Swarming in battery, and plenty of dorks in the swamp. Also tons of Ondraians if you go the murder them all route. Not so many of the Eyeless, as they come in smaller numbers. And of course, the various Bounty quests are full of melee mobs to cover for the dangerous ones in the back.

 

So....I'm not seeing all these portions of the game where a Barb doesn't get to flex Carnage. You can hold it against Barb that it can't beat a caster, but thinking it can't dominate at large portions of the game is just a poor understanding of game mechanics.

 

 

You are right. But meanwhile, what's happening to the other classes ?

 

My priest do much damage. My druid hit at a crazy speed after the storm. My druid have more killing than Barbarian. How its possible ? Barbarian = it is normally the master of slaughter. It has here in fact that the role of a small opener. A small damage dealer to everything's in carnage range.

 

The only pure benefit of barbariam is his health. A sort of Tank. But with C.C., I lose very little life and its not an argument.

 

On the end game, his talents (level 13, 15) are useless. Before, heart of the fury have 1/rest. So its an exceptionnal boost. You never know really when to use it. Especially since it is not even so powerful as that.

 

What do you mean by optimize damage?

 

 

The greatest possible damage. And there, the Barbarian is last (in my team), in many situations.

Edited March 5, 2016 by theBalthazar