Did chanters get changed with 3.0?

[Mercbeast]

I've heard a lot of talk about chanters being addressed with 3.0, but I don't see any mention of it in the patch notes.

[delfador]

Yeah, the patch notes don't explain the balance changes, unless I missed it. Here's what I'm seeing in game (3.00.929 beta):

 

Chanter at level 1: 100% phrase time (e.g. 4 seconds for level 1 phrase)

Chanter at level 4: 90% phrase time (3.6 s)

Chanter at level 7: 80% phrase time (3.2 s)

Chanter at level 10: 70% phrase time (2.8 s)

Chanter at level 13: 60% phrase time (2.4 s)

 

Other phrase levels are scaled the same way. There's a talent/active effect called Brisk Recitation on the character sheet.

 

Seems pretty nice. I don't think higher level phrases build up points any faster, though (disclaimer: haven't tested it much yet.)

[Ichthyic]

frankly, from what I have experienced, the changes to the chanter are very very slight in practice.

your chant radius is still way too small, the bonus 20% from "voice of the mountaintop" still does not work correctly, intelligence boosts to radius are still too small, and you still rarely manage to get a summon out until you are very high level, or in the longer fights.  Damage from dragon chant actually seems nerfed, if anything (enemies seem to have much more DR to fire), and is no longer the reliable melter it was.

basically, I just use Kana for minor buffs, an off tank, and to use all those items and scrolls you find/make.  it's much MUCH more valuable to have him using scrolls of paralysis rather than waiting for him to be able to invoke it using his spell version.

there are plenty of easy to get weapons/items with spell abilities (like the estoc you can buy from the crucible knights in defiance bay), and then there are also all the items with summon creature on them.

so, he plays with all the gadgets, while everyone else actually uses their skills and abilities.

it works.

plus... I just like having the big guy around... his comments are frequent and humorous and keep the game more lively.

but yeah... I think chanters as individual characters are weak, and still weak after 3.0

now.... if you build a PARTY of chanters... that could be devastating as they all complement and buff each other and stack various damage chants.

I often thought to try that on a replay; just haven't got around to it yet.

If it were me, I would add a talent that is like the bonus spell levels for wizards/priests, but in the chanter's case, gives you 1 chant counter per level you take of it.

so, at say level 3, you can take a level of "Quicker Invocations" and you would then start combat with 1 chant counter already.  then you can pick another level of this every 4 levels.

so one at level 3, level 7, and level 11, for a total of 3 chant counters you start combat with at level 11, should you choose those talents.

this would make invocations SOOOO much more useful.  As they are now, they rarely change the tide of a fight and usually just a finisher.


this also would work far better than the increased chant speed method they are using now.

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Ichthyic

[Ichthyic]

oh, one minor point to add:

make sure you use a low level chant BEFORE you a big AOE damage chant, otherwise you likely will miss all the enemies as they will not be in range when you start chanting.

took me a while to realize that, and it hasn't changed in 3.0.

it *should* be the case that enemies entering your aoe then get affected by the chant, but that's not the way it works.  they have to be within range before the chant starts.

 

[Ymarsakar]

Delf has it.

 

It makes the chanters more effective at higher levels, so that they can actually use their higher level spell invocs.

 

It also makes the chant rotation slightly more flexible, without taking away the "longer fight it is, stronger chanters get" vs all the other heavy micro classes or even martial classes with /encounter limits.

[Reent]

Kana may be a bad Chanter, i am playing with MC Chanter, he has 20 int and can just run towards the enemys, most get hit because the chant has a slight delay before it hits - so no low level chant needed.

And maybe i am playing too low encounters, however damagewise my chanter will kill anything - i played him solo ironman and the damage against the alpine dragon was high enough to get him to injured quite quick, could have defeated it if i didnt miss the timing to summon shades or something when the adds (enemys) died and made way for the dragon to engage me - killing me rather fast (no, couldnt have summoned ogers - not enough charges - killed the adds too fast)

 

My Chanter doesnt summon stuff because the enemys die too fast in everything but boss fights.

 

Now i am running MC Chanter, Durance as helper - the game tells me that durance dealt about 6k damage while my chanter dealt about 19k damage (shortly before lvl 11) the dragon chant isnt included, the endurance- chant isnt included - most damage comes from the time before lvl 9 - since then i didnt really use either one to deal active damage - dragon chant was enough, however then i spammed all the damage abilities durance has...

The Whire Worm (lvl 1) spell is simply too amazing, if you play around the spell you dont need something like dragon chant or endurance- chant, just use something (maybe rogue) to generate bodys, reuse former bodys in later fights - and you will simply kill everything that leaves bodys with your chanter dealing so much damage its not even funny :D

However Kana isnt the best for this strategy - not enough int/might, both should be maxed out - thats what makes the Chanter amazing, no one needs a tank chanter with low might - what encounter takes so long that the ogres are that relevant? (ok, some bossfights may be easier that way... lvl 16 you only need 50% time, so 2s)

[Enexemander]

 

Yeah, the patch notes don't explain the balance changes, unless I missed it. Here's what I'm seeing in game (3.00.929 beta):

 

Chanter at level 1: 100% phrase time (e.g. 4 seconds for level 1 phrase)

Chanter at level 4: 90% phrase time (3.6 s)

Chanter at level 7: 80% phrase time (3.2 s)

 

Chanter at level 10: 70% phrase time (2.8 s)

 

Chanter at level 13: 60% phrase time (2.4 s)

 

Other phrase levels are scaled the same way. There's a talent/active effect called Brisk Recitation on the character sheet.

 

Seems pretty nice. I don't think higher level phrases build up points any faster, though (disclaimer: haven't tested it much yet.)

Oh, interesting! Thanks for this. I noticed that Kana got very useful in White March 2. I just thought it was because the fights were longer. I pretty much put him on very short phrases and smashed out the AoE paralyze whenever it was up (which was pretty often) and he became really, really useful.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Enexemander

[Boeroer]

frankly, from what I have experienced, the changes to the chanter are very very slight in practice.

 

your chant radius is still way too small, the bonus 20% from "voice of the mountaintop" still does not work correctly, intelligence boosts to radius are still too small, and you still rarely manage to get a summon out until you are very high level, or in the longer fights.  Damage from dragon chant actually seems nerfed, if anything (enemies seem to have much more DR to fire), and is no longer the reliable melter it was.

 

 

 

I don't want to sound harsh, but nearly all things you said above are incorrect:

 

- The chat radius is the biggest base AoE you can have with any passive ability on any class. If you do it right, nearly all the time all enemies will be covered by it. Not to speak of your companions.

 

- Voice of the Mountaintop works just fine as it should. So does INT. INT gets applied as to any other ability. It increases your base AoE by %. So does Overseeing and Voice of the Mountaintop. Alltogether you can get an absurdly big AoE.

 

- The damage of The Dragon Thrashed  was not nerfed. What was nerfed was the ACC of hazards in general. So it may be that your chant will not hit/crit as often as it used too. Compensate that with more PER and ACC buffs. But it's still one of the best abilities there are. Dealing DoT damage while standing around, not infuenced by status effects like prone, not influenced by low DEX, but pumped by MIG and INT. Huge AoE, good chance to hit. Works with Predator's Sense and Combusting Wounds. Stacks with itself and other DoT chants. It's best if you are a tank and stand in the front line in order to catch really every enemy on the field.

 

- Brisk Recitation is a beast at higher levels. It speeds up your chants by %. So a longer base recitation time will profit more in terms of flat seconds. A phrase that took 3 seconds will be sung in 2 seconds now - you gain 1 sec. But a phrase that used to take 10 seconds now only takes 6 - that's a gain of 4 seconds. You can easily fit another phrase in there. And you can feel that. At least in PoTD. Suddenly you can spam invocations like you never could before. Suddenly retraining to cast "Seven Nights" as often as possible totally makes sense. That invocation is so good if you can cast it repeatedly in a fight. Same with "White Worms" . but I said enough about that in other threads.

 

- Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirits got buffed a lot. They now heal a lot more in a big AoE and also stack. 

So it's correct that a party of 6 chanters is very, very powerful - especially after lvl 9.

 

So I wouldn't say the changes were minor. All in all they buffed the chanter big time.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

 

frankly, from what I have experienced, the changes to the chanter are very very slight in practice.

 

your chant radius is still way too small, the bonus 20% from "voice of the mountaintop" still does not work correctly, intelligence boosts to radius are still too small, and you still rarely manage to get a summon out until you are very high level, or in the longer fights.  Damage from dragon chant actually seems nerfed, if anything (enemies seem to have much more DR to fire), and is no longer the reliable melter it was.

 

 

 

I don't want to sound harsh, but nearly all things you said above are incorrect:

 

- The chat radius is the biggest base AoE you can have with any passive ability on any class. If you do it right, nearly all the time all enemies will be covered by it. Not to speak of your companions.

 

- Voice of the Mountaintop works just fine as it should. So does INT. INT gets applied as to any other ability. It increases your base AoE by %. So does Overseeing and Voice of the Mountaintop. Alltogether you can get an absurdly big AoE.

 

- The damage of The Dragon Thrashed  was not nerfed. What was nerfed was the ACC of hazards in general. So it may be that your chant will not hit/crit as often as it used too. Compensate that with more PER and ACC buffs. But it's still one of the best abilities there are. Dealing DoT damage while standing around, not infuenced by status effects like prone, not influenced by low DEX, but pumped by MIG and INT. Huge AoE, good chance to hit. Works with Predator's Sense and Combusting Wounds. Stacks with itself and other DoT chants. It's best if you are a tank and stand in the front line in order to catch really every enemy on the field.

 

- Brisk Recitation is a beast at higher levels. It speeds up your chants by %. So a longer base recitation time will profit more in terms of flat seconds. A phrase that took 3 seconds will be sung in 2 seconds now - you gain 1 sec. But a phrase that used to take 10 seconds now only takes 6 - that's a gain of 4 seconds. You can easily fit another phrase in there. And you can feel that. At least in PoTD. Suddenly you can spam invocations like you never could before. Suddenly retraining to cast "Seven Nights" as often as possible totally makes sense. That invocation is so good if you can cast it repeatedly in a fight. Same with "White Worms" . but I said enough about that in other threads.

 

- Ancient Memory and Beloved Spirits got buffed a lot. They now heal a lot more in a big AoE and also stack. 

So it's correct that a party of 6 chanters is very, very powerful - especially after lvl 9.

 

So I wouldn't say the changes were minor. All in all they buffed the chanter big time.

 

This.

Also the chanter didn't need the buffs.

But hey, so didn't many classes.

[Maxzero]

The Dragon Thrashed and Wailed seems so strong now because it is: some quick testing against Adra Beetles (20 ish DR) seems to show that the chant ignores DR.

 

Considering no modes, passive damage boost talents, -DR abilities or weapons can boost the damage it seems a fair exchange. Basically the only way to boost the damage is increasing Int, Acc and Might.

 

Even accuracy is fairly weak since it only affects the linger duration.

[theBalthazar]

I agree.

 

The boost for the Chanter was NECESSARY.

 

BUT, its not enough.

 

In reality, the chanter is totally useless level 1 to 8. After, he is correct with Dragon thrash and Superlash.

 

And then he never has time to do good invocations. The battle is already finish. (Never seen Invocation 5 phrases-6 phrases personally, 3.01 include)

 

I think the biggest problem is not the time of each phrase. The problem is : three sentences have to pass for the first invocation (and with 3, its only the first level of invocations... Not the best)

 

There should be a talent to drop by 1 the number of sentences needed to start the invocations. (More, the chanter have not really much class talent...)

Edited March 11, 2016 by theBalthazar

[Ymarsakar]

Chanters need longer fights to show their importance. They don't get that time if Balthazar uses Vancian casters to nuke the enemy quickly, after using a wall of melee meat classes to buy time for the spell combos.

 

Things would work very different with another mix of party class tactics, as I've said before. The chanter is designed more for people who don't like resting or using per rest abilities. But for people whose playstyle is opposite it, it's not a problem with the chanter, it's a problem with their party arrangement not needing the chanter. It's like having 6 rangers, and then saying the chanter isn't a good tank, because ranger pets can tank and do damage too.

 

Well, obviously, because there's six of them now.

 

If the chanter doesn't have time to get to 5 verses, maybe it's because people are using 3+ vancian casters to nuke the enemy. Maybe that's how it works.

 

Also, people who always use dragon thrash or second level chants and above, don't get the ogres. They spend too much time on higher level chants. That's how it is designed... if you abuse the rotation like that, it would be pretty OP if you could get 5 verses in a fight the way doing so with level 1 death chant for 5 verses would provide. Higher level chants take significantly longer to chant, but are powerful in their own right. People have always had to decide whether they want the invocations, or whether they wanted the higher level chant's power.

 

Before, people endlessly complained that the chanter would never get to verse 5 or higher, but that was often times because they were using 2nd and 3rd level chants that took up too much time. So it felt to them that the chanter was useless, until the higher level chants. These days, they've figured out builds for just using a chanter singing 3rd level chants. I'm more in a middle, I don't use 2nd or 3rd level chants unless I need them in the rotation. I focused more on 1st level chants and used the invocations more.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Ymarsakar

[Ineth]

Stacks with itself

 

Does it also stack from the same chanter?

 

i.e. if you prepare a chant consisting of that Dragon phrase twice in a row, will it stack during the overlap time?

Edited March 11, 2016 by Ineth

[MaxQuest]

Does it also stack from the same chanter?

 

i.e. if you prepare a chant consisting of that Dragon phrase twice in a row, will it stack during the overlap time?

I have frapsed it. And yeap, it does stack. No ticks are lost.

 

Also few, known or not quite things:

- dot does damage every 3s (90-91 frames)

- when phrases are stacked, ticks occur more often (duh)

- ticks deal constant damage, with the exception of closing tick (which usually hits for less, and depends on how much dmg there is left to deal)

- first tick always does it's damage instantly, at the moment of dot appliance

- intellect does NOT affect per-tick damage

- hit quality (crit/hit/graze) does NOT affect per-tick damage

- hit quality (crit/hit/graze) influences only the linger phase (x1.5/x1/x0.5)

- at 10 might, every tick deals 10..10.4 slash and burn damage; which is then reduced by 1/4 of enemy's respective DR.

 

 

 

Level 12 chanter
5.6 duration + 5.6 linger = 11.2s

crit: 56.7 burn&slash over 14.0
hit: 47.3 burn&slash over 11.2
graze: 38 burn&slash over 8.4

Enemy DR: 20 slash; 10 general

crit damage ticks: 5 x 8/5 + closing tick of (1/4)
hit damage ticks: 4 x 8/5 + closing tick of (5/2)
graze damage ticks: 3 x 8/5 + closing tick of (5/3)

n = 4
x = pre-DR tick damage
x - 10/n = 8 => x = 10 .. 10.9
x - 20/n = 5 => x = 9.5 .. 10.4
so: x = 10 .. 10.4

Sequence checked: Dragon-thrashed -> dragon-thrashed -> 5 x At sight of comrades
Damage ticks: 1 (hit tick), 1, 1 (hit tick), 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 (closing tick!), 1, 1 (closing tick!)
Total: 10 ticks from 2 hits

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Teioh_White]

This is making me want to do the 6 Chanter playthrough again. It was fun in 2.X, and must just be hilarious now with faster Chants.

[Maxzero]

 

Does it also stack from the same chanter?

 

i.e. if you prepare a chant consisting of that Dragon phrase twice in a row, will it stack during the overlap time?

I have frapsed it. And yeap, it does stack. No ticks are lost.

 

Also few, known or not quite things:

- dot does damage every 3s (90-91 frames)

- when phrases are stacked, ticks occur more often (duh)

- ticks deal constant damage, with the exception of closing tick (which usually hits for less, and depends on how much dmg there is left to deal)

- first tick always does it's damage instantly, at the moment of dot appliance

- intellect does NOT affect per-tick damage

- hit quality (crit/hit/graze) does NOT affect per-tick damage

- hit quality (crit/hit/graze) influences only the linger phase (x1.5/x1/x0.5)

- at 10 might, every tick deals 10..10.4 slash and burn damage; which is then reduced by 1/4 of enemy's respective DR.

 

 

 

Level 12 chanter
5.6 duration + 5.6 linger = 11.2s

crit: 56.7 burn&slash over 14.0
hit: 47.3 burn&slash over 11.2
graze: 38 burn&slash over 8.4

Enemy DR: 20 slash; 10 general

crit damage ticks: 5 x 8/5 + closing tick of (1/4)
hit damage ticks: 4 x 8/5 + closing tick of (5/2)
graze damage ticks: 3 x 8/5 + closing tick of (5/3)

n = 4
x = pre-DR tick damage
x - 10/n = 8 => x = 10 .. 10.9
x - 20/n = 5 => x = 9.5 .. 10.4
so: x = 10 .. 10.4

Sequence checked: Dragon-thrashed -> dragon-thrashed -> 5 x At sight of comrades
Damage ticks: 1 (hit tick), 1, 1 (hit tick), 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 (closing tick!), 1, 1 (closing tick!)
Total: 10 ticks from 2 hits

Okay so thats why DR seemed to have little effect. Am I right in concluding that 20 Slash DR only reduced the tick damage by 0.5 over 10 DR?

 

Now I wonder is there anything except Int, Might and Accuracy that can increase the damage (either through bigger ticks or longer duration)?

[Boeroer]

Don't think so. Scion of Flame doesn't work. Well - a bigger AoE increases the overall damage output - but not the damage that is done to each individual.

[MaxQuest]

Okay so thats why DR seemed to have little effect. Am I right in concluding that 20 Slash DR only reduced the tick damage by 0.5 over 10 DR?

No You are concluding it wrong.

10..10.4 is the damage value that a tick against 0 DR would do. (provided that chanter has 10 might) (and excluding closing ticks)

Against 10 DR: dot is ticking for 8 dmg.

Against 20 DR: dot is ticking for 5 dmg.

As you can see 20 DR practically halved the damage dealt. But than again, that's with 10 mig.

 

 

Now I wonder is there anything except Int, Might and Accuracy that can increase the damage (either through bigger ticks or longer duration)?

Besides those you mentioned: reducing enemy DR and debuffing their reflex.

 

But than again: higher int, and higher hit quality (crit/hit/graze), only matter if the enemy will live longer than chant's base duration.

Edited March 12, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Lowering DR is your best option. Expose Vulnerabilities is a good friend here. I had a blast wizard with Golden Gaze in my party, attacking with nearly 0 recovery (durgan steel, Alacrity, Gauntlets of Swift Action) - and besides doing tons of damage he also cast Expose Vulnerabilities on impact a lot (I believe that blast-hits also count for the spell chance - it procs all the time). You could really feel the difference - especially if your only chant was The Dragon Thrashed.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Boeroer

[MaxQuest]

Note: don't even think of lowering might, if you want to focus on dragon chant. I.e. doing this this will dramatically decrease dot's damage against anything with respectable DR:

 

10 might:

Against 0 DR: 10 tick dmg (10..10.4)

Against 10 DR: 8 dmg

Against 20 DR: 5 dmg

 

2 might (-24%):

Against 0 DR: 8 dmg (7.6..7.9) (20% relative loss in damage)

Against 10 DR: 5 dmg (37.5% rel. loss in damage)

Against 20 DR: 3 dmg (40% rel. loss in damage)

 

20 might (+30%):

Against 0 DR: 13 dmg (13..13.5) (30% gain in damage)

Against 10 DR: 11 dmg (37.5% rel. gain in damage)

Against 20 DR: 8 dmg (60% rel. gain in damage)

 

 

P.S. Have checked (just in case) if Scion of Flame suddenly didn't start to affect the dots in 3.0+. It didn't...

P.P.S. Also ticks don't proc the Dazzling property from Glittering Gauntlets. Neither do even the initial hit appliances..

Edited March 12, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Maxzero]

Note: don't even think of lowering might, if you want to focus on dragon chant. I.e. doing this this will dramatically decrease dot's damage against anything with respectable DR:

 

10 might:

Against 0 DR: 10 tick dmg (10..10.4)

Against 10 DR: 8 dmg

Against 20 DR: 5 dmg

 

2 might (-24%):

Against 0 DR: 8 dmg (7.6..7.9) (20% relative loss in damage)

Against 10 DR: 5 dmg (37.5% rel. loss in damage)

Against 20 DR: 3 dmg (40% rel. loss in damage)

 

20 might (+30%):

Against 0 DR: 13 dmg (13..13.5) (30% gain in damage)

Against 10 DR: 11 dmg (37.5% rel. gain in damage)

Against 20 DR: 8 dmg (60% rel. gain in damage)

 

 

P.S. Have checked (just in case) if Scion of Flame suddenly didn't start to affect the dots in 3.0+. It didn't...

P.P.S. Also ticks don't proc the Dazzling property from Glittering Gauntlets. Neither do even the initial hit appliances..

 

Not only do the elemental passive not apply neither do the +25% damage against creature type. Have yet to test but I suspect the +20% against Spirit and Vessel ring or the +30% damage against Dragon chant might not work with the chant either.

[Reent]

the dragon chant is... affected by race and attributes - and 1h weapon no shield bonus - thats about it, maybe the anti beast chant since its a chanter ability but i dont think so... no acc buff etc spell i used helped (might/perception buff spells did) thats why you have to pump might if you want to deal damage with chanter, its about the only way (please, if you know another way... TELL ME!!!!) to get your damage up (okay, white worms can deal more damage and should scale better with talents/buffs...)

[Boeroer]

I think most of this is because you create a hazard field with that chant - it's not a direct attack.

[Reent]

jeah... but its anti fun, since the damage of the dragon chant is so high i dont want to use anything else - you use a spell? You loose out on about one dragon chant - most damage spells arent worth it, other spells... sometimes... (one dragon chant with 30 might is about 4/5 damage ticks with 22 damage each (more against less DR), it would need quite a hit with white worms to make it worth it, without reusing bodys its only good if you need a damage spike... other spells, i just dont see how its worth it (okay, if you know exactly how to cast that your recovery starts right after dragon chant hits the enemy... if could be worth it... but with my low dex and resolve i dont know when it will activate=so not worth it if i dont need a body to block them or have 20+ bodys)

why not make it stack with talents etc but not stack with itself? Then you could use the diversity the Chanter offers - put in the speed chant in between dragon chants, or something else... and not loose damage, or cast something without loosing damage... would make the chanter fun, atm its fun with a lot of salt.

[Dr <3]

I found ( in my play expeeiece, i have not done proper math to prove it ) that the max dps with chanter are obtained using a chant made by dragon trashed and winds of death. Doing so the chant counter reach 5 much more faster than using dragon chant alone, and allows you to spam 7 nights spell faster and more time per encounters.this deals defenetly more DMG that a mono dragon trashed chant, in wich the invocation is long postponed.