The Rape of Europe

[Sakai]

So you're going to keep looking for more facts until you find some that suit you. Why is it so hard to believe that a part of the problem is Islam, that these men come from a different culture that is used to violence and harsh punishment, governance through fear in other words - and therefore aren't afraid to do what they do because they know they can (mostly) get away with it? That the police response will be meek and the natives too sheep like and docile.

 

How do you think people like Saddam Hussen, the Saudis etc. ruled and stayed in power?

Lol, and how people like Putin rule and stay in power? And before you're going to say anything, recently a man was sentenced to 5 years in prison for holding a sign in public. And as you can guess it didn't say "I love Putin". So please, explain to me how a dictator happen to rule Russia? Is it because russians are simply used to violence and harsh punishment? Or maybe the answer is a little bit more complicated than that, just as with Middle East? Rosbjerg is absolutely right, every generation had it's own bogeyman. Unfortunetly every new generation forgets about it and the cycle begins anew. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sakai

[Darkpriest]

I've made myself last 2.5 year off from my career, now recently i got back to investment banking. I've used to travel around different parts of the world, mostly EU and NA though due to easier visa access (including an open work permit) and less language barrier.

 

I've been living the life of a poor immigrant on occasions and working some low paid jobs with people from far east, India, South East Asia, Eastern Europe and also Pakistan, Afghanistan, Algeria, and a few other countries.

 

This traveling experience actually made me in some way a bit of racist towards some and towards others gave me more confidence based on behaviors I had to live with and observed. For example I became more averse vs "blacks" especially in NA, even though I know i should not generalize, but at a certain income level you just meet kind of people you might get defensive towards to after some experiences. Same goes for muslims. People from South East Asia (Philippines based were the most I've met) were fairly open, cheerful and would not bitch that much even if the economic conditions were not so great, Chinese were also friendly although they would not really include you into their "pack".

 

I could write a book on my experiences, but trust me, It is not mere theoretical talk, that most people tend to practice. I only regret that I missed the window of opportunity to go to middle east before all this mess started. 10 years ago I should have used the opportunity and visit Syria, Kuwait, U.A.E, then Saudi Arabia and finish it with Israel (cannot do the other way around, they did not really like Israeli visa on passports of people who would want to visit Arab countries)

[Malcador]

So you're going to keep looking for more facts until you find some that suit you. Why is it so hard to believe that a part of the problem is Islam, that these men come from a different culture that is used to violence and harsh punishment, governance through fear in other words - and therefore aren't afraid to do what they do because they know they can (mostly) get away with it? That the police response will be meek and the natives too sheep like and docile.

 

How do you think people like Saddam Hussen, the Saudis etc. ruled and stayed in power?

Problem is too many of them are uneducated and/or morons, mainly.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

So you're going to keep looking for more facts until you find some that suit you. Why is it so hard to believe that a part of the problem is Islam, that these men come from a different culture that is used to violence and harsh punishment, governance through fear in other words - and therefore aren't afraid to do what they do because they know they can (mostly) get away with it? That the police response will be meek and the natives too sheep like and docile.

 

How do you think people like Saddam Hussen, the Saudis etc. ruled and stayed in power?

Lol, and how people like Putin rule and stay in power? And before you're going to say anything, recently a man was sentenced to 5 years in prison for holding a sign in public. And as you can guess it didn't say "I love Putin". So please, explain to me how a dictator happen to rule Russia? Is it because russians are simply used to violence and harsh punishment? Or maybe the answer is a little bit more complicated than that, just as with Middle East? Rosbjerg is absolutely right, every generation had it's own bogeyman. Unfortunetly every new generation forgets about it and the cycle begins anew. 

 

 

When has it been that a dictator hasn't ruled Russia? Before Putin, communist leaders, and before them, monarchs? Its a huge country empire that's impossible to govern democratically.  Only an idiot would try to implement western type "pseudo democracy" there (You even had one of those and we all know what that looked like.) - which would result in Americans buying out every political option and fermenting a revolution every other weekend like they do in Ukraine. 

[Sakai]

When has it been that a dictator hasn't ruled Russia? Before Putin, communist leaders, and before them, monarchs? Its a huge country empire that's impossible to govern democratically.  Only an idiot would try to implement western type "pseudo democracy" there (You even had one of those and we all know what that looked like.) - which would result in Americans buying out every political option and fermenting a revolution every other weekend like they do in Ukraine. 

Ah, i see. Dictatorship is bad except when it's good. Okay.  

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

So you're going to keep looking for more facts until you find some that suit you. Why is it so hard to believe that a part of the problem is Islam, that these men come from a different culture that is used to violence and harsh punishment, governance through fear in other words - and therefore aren't afraid to do what they do because they know they can (mostly) get away with it? That the police response will be meek and the natives too sheep like and docile.

 

How do you think people like Saddam Hussen, the Saudis etc. ruled and stayed in power?

Problem is too many of them are uneducated and/or morons, mainly.

 

 

They're clever enough to know that if they molest girls on the street in Kabul, the consequences will be much harsher than in Amsterdam. Anyway, recent events speak for themselves. Mass molestation in Cologne - mayor proposes solution: keep men at arms length. Enough said.

[Darkpriest]

To be honest, I'd prefer a "dictator" (aka a monarch) that can see beyond his next elections cycle. The problem with is that you cannot really predict who will be that dictator. If it is someone who will push your country to better state or will it be some power abusing idiot ruining own country and society.

 

Democracy is flawed, because it gives everyone the same vote value (100 idiots can vote that 2+2 = 5 and the smart guy will have to accept it) and it is constrained by election cycle, so half of the time is wasted on building image for next election. It also makes ruling parties not look forward further on the big picture and constrain them from making decisions that would be unpopular in a short term but would bring benefits in the long term.

 

Each government type has its own flaws, after all Nazism came to power through fully democratic means.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

When has it been that a dictator hasn't ruled Russia? Before Putin, communist leaders, and before them, monarchs? Its a huge country empire that's impossible to govern democratically.  Only an idiot would try to implement western type "pseudo democracy" there (You even had one of those and we all know what that looked like.) - which would result in Americans buying out every political option and fermenting a revolution every other weekend like they do in Ukraine. 

Ah, i see. Dictatorship is bad except when it's good. Okay.

 

 

I never said dictatorship was bad, I only said the natives respect the propensity for violence and do not respect kind words and chiding. They see it as a sign of weakness.

 

I would have thought that that is logical enough?

[Malcador]

I would be surprised if there were punishment in Kabul at least for this crime. And this trash would do this everywhere.

 

Response should have been better and sterner, I agree.

[Sakai]

I never said dictatorship was bad, I only said the natives respect the propensity for violence and do not respect kind words and chiding. They see it as a sign of weakness.

 

I would have thought that that is logical enough?

Now it's perfectly clear. Good day to you.

[Drowsy Emperor]

I would be surprised if there were punishment in Kabul at least for this crime. And this trash would do this everywhere.

 

Response should have been better and sterner, I agree.

 

From my experience with UAE, the society is basically segregated and its highly unlikely that a guy can get away with doing anything to a girl - girls always go in packs, or with male companions so the chance of getting intimate in any shape or form is practically impossible. Not only would this sort of molestation be hard to pull off, a whole lot of people would be involved - namely the parents of the girls would take things into their own hands and it would be a major embarrassment to the families of the men within their own communities. However the people I saw in UAE are more or less affluent so its hard to say how things look in the lower income bracket. But the social pressure is very strong and in Europe all those limitations ( the "us as in ethnicity or religion", the "community", the likelihood of punishment) disappear.

[Drowsy Emperor]

To be honest, I'd prefer a "dictator" (aka a monarch) that can see beyond his next elections cycle. The problem with is that you cannot really predict who will be that dictator. If it is someone who will push your country to better state or will it be some power abusing idiot ruining own country and society.

 

Democracy is flawed, because it gives everyone the same vote value (100 idiots can vote that 2+2 = 5 and the smart guy will have to accept it) and it is constrained by election cycle, so half of the time is wasted on building image for next election. It also makes ruling parties not look forward further on the big picture and constrain them from making decisions that would be unpopular in a short term but would bring benefits in the long term.

 

Each government type has its own flaws, after all Nazism came to power through fully democratic means.

 

There is no real difference between democracy and dictatorship, in either case it is usually the financial elite that governs. Whether the system is set up so that you have the illusion of choice is relevant only an emotional level (I get to choose!). In practice, you, as in the common man, gets to decide nothing in either system barring exceptional circumstances - and those, such as the odd politician that climbed the social ladder from the bottom to the top are used as an example that democracy is superior (conveniently forgetting that even in the days of monarchs and dictators such things were not unheard of). 

 

Its just conditioning to make you believe whatever the ideology of the day is. People don't care about who is in charge or what the system is like as long as they have a comfortable existence.

 

They say Putin is a dictator, yet it was alright for two members of the Bush family to be presidents. Possibly the wife of an ex president could become president herself soon. What oddly small circles the power in US revolves in, hmm?

[213374U]

You should have hanged every singe one of them connected to organized crime and deported some as an example to the others, so that they're less likely to cover for the criminals they know. I don't give a flying **** about the nationality of criminals. On the other hand, if you didn't jump on the train to making Yugoslavia a hellhole most of them wouldn't have come in the first place.

No need for that. It was mostly solved with more international cooperation in law enforcement matters, and better laws that targeted specific practices and allowed judges to do their jobs more effectively. See? We didn't need to hang anybody, and no mass deportations were required. We call this "civilization". In fact, we consider it barbaric when countries hang offenders at the drop of a hat and inflict collective punishments on minorities. But that wouldn't make us barbarians, right?

 

It is baffling and yet not really surprising, however, how your stance has changed immediately. Now only those "connected to organized crime" should have been punished (with which I agree), instead of flat out kicking everyone out, as you suggested previously. Care to explain why? Can't be because they are your countrymen, no siree.

 

I'm not going to bother addressing the rest of your post — it's just your typical übermenschen wankery. All rhetorics and no substance.

[Malcador]

US officials must be loving this, really. Minor headache for their rival, at least.

[Zoraptor]

Truth of the matter is that dictatorship and democracy both have weaknesses. Democracies tend to be smug and absorbed with a sense of their own superiority to the extent that they don't look critically at themselves and believe that the mere act of voting perpetuates their superiority, their leaders are easily manipulated and controlled plus short sightedly populist because of the electoral cycle; dictators are, well, dictators so they have little to no control exerted over them- potentially a great thing if the dictator is a great leader but if the leader is stupid, mad, paranoid or whatever else then it's not a great situation for the country.
 

When you want to drive a nail in you take a hammer.

 
"When you have a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail"

Edited January 9, 2016 by Zoraptor

[Hiro Protagonist]

we don't even know yet if there is a problem

 

You don't know if there is a problem?

[Sakai]

You don't know if there is a problem?

We don't know yet if the problem is refugees or something else.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sakai

[Sarex]

No, that's not how the argument goes. It's rather "they are scum because they come from XYZ or worship XYZ", ergo, automatic deportation of everyone from <random geographical area>.

 

The reason why this **** is bad is because it violates due process, presumption of innocence *and* is also collective punishment. They are all violations of basic human rights. What you folks seem to be incapable of wrapping your minds around is that you cannot be for human rights and the rule of law "sometimes". It's an either/or thing, 100% of the time. No exceptions. If only because tomorrow it could be you being taken to the gallows pole because some mouth-breathing hillbilly decided that your entire ethnic group is today's blight of the earth.

 

What is an acceptable threshold for "filtering scum out", anyway? There are occurrences of EU citizens committing crimes in other EU countries, but that is generally acceptable because reasons. You reckon that level is acceptable or we should settle for nothing less than a 100% perfect record?

 

 

Huh, human rights...Good joke... When were we ever concerned about human rights? Was it when the West started tearing the middle east apart and making it uninhabitable, or was it perhaps when the Merciful Angel bombed the **** out of a sovereign country and banishing its people from their homes which were in turned given to immigrants? Yeah lets not be hypocrites here.

 

Let us show these human rights to each other and after that we can talk about the immigrants.

[Sakai]

There is no problem. It's only women after all, right?

Is that how you think?

[licketysplit]

What if this happened in the states, or Canada, and perps were white? The moral outrage from the media would have blacked out the sun. 

[Tigranes]

I've made myself last 2.5 year off from my career, now recently i got back to investment banking. I've used to travel around different parts of the world, mostly EU and NA though due to easier visa access (including an open work permit) and less language barrier.

 

I've been living the life of a poor immigrant on occasions and working some low paid jobs with people from far east, India, South East Asia, Eastern Europe and also Pakistan, Afghanistan, Algeria, and a few other countries.

 

This traveling experience actually made me in some way a bit of racist towards some and towards others gave me more confidence based on behaviors I had to live with and observed. For example I became more averse vs "blacks" especially in NA, even though I know i should not generalize, but at a certain income level you just meet kind of people you might get defensive towards to after some experiences. Same goes for muslims. People from South East Asia (Philippines based were the most I've met) were fairly open, cheerful and would not bitch that much even if the economic conditions were not so great, Chinese were also friendly although they would not really include you into their "pack".

 

I could write a book on my experiences, but trust me, It is not mere theoretical talk, that most people tend to practice. I only regret that I missed the window of opportunity to go to middle east before all this mess started. 10 years ago I should have used the opportunity and visit Syria, Kuwait, U.A.E, then Saudi Arabia and finish it with Israel (cannot do the other way around, they did not really like Israeli visa on passports of people who would want to visit Arab countries)

 

It's good to know that you at least are basing it off first-hand observation.

 

Racism has a lot to do with stereotypes, and the thing with stereotypes is, you often need them. If in your travels all the Arabs you met were despicable people, for example, and seemed to share some common bad tendencies, then it is hard to blame you personally for being wary of a new Arab acquaintance. 

 

The problem comes when people start to scale that up to declarations about the nature of Filipinos or Russians as a whole. Born Korean, and having traveled to over a dozen countries, I often despair at how Koreans treat foreigners, and some tourists develop quite accurate observations of what Koreans can be like to foreigners. That doesn't mean, however, that they understand why those behaviours happen, or whether they are limited to particular subsets or all Koreans, or if it reflects something fundamental about them or is a passing phase, etc. Which is understandable - we're not gods. So again, if that person wants to then steer away from Koreans, well, that's not his/her fault, that's the Koreans' fault, and fair play to that.

 

Reasonable people stop there. Reason stops when people go on and try to fit things into a grand narrative - e.g. the Koreans must all be rude because of their religion, the Japanese must all be sexually depraved because they can't have casual sex as easily as the Americans do, whatever. As I say, the West has already entertained, and ultimately rejected, theories like the natural stupidity of blacks - because despite trying really hard, it didn't turn out to be provable, even when you had learned people bring all their historical and scientific knowledge into the game.

 

After all, when you talk about Indians and Chinese as 'naturally peaceful' and Arabs as confrontational, you will find no end of other equally well-traveled fellows who have the opposite experience. Chinese are openly reviled in some cases because they are seen as predatory, arrogant, rude money-grubbers who only care about money and use it to take over the host country. I can't tell you that you're wrong to personally think less of Portuguese or Kenyans if you had bad experiences - who am I to tell you otherwise? But scaling up from there is illogical, and that's why it's dangerous for people to talk about all those migrants, all those Muslims, all those blacks, etc. as a problem, as if they're so smart and have it all figured out. 

[Sakai]

That seems to be your general narrative, right?

Please show me where i said anything even close to that.

[Malcador]

What if this happened in the states, or Canada, and perps were white? The moral outrage from the media would have blacked out the sun.

International media, nah (maybe if it were the US, Euros would enjoy sneering at them as always) but largely the outrage would be confined to that nation. Seems to be pretty much the case here as well - outrage in Germany is high, but here in Canada, not much, most of the concern is how this will be used by people against the refugees (naturally racists).

 

Still wonder there were no cops around at all when this was going on.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Malcador

[licketysplit]

 

What if this happened in the states, or Canada, and perps were white? The moral outrage from the media would have blacked out the sun.

International media, nah (maybe if it were the US, Euros would enjoy sneering at them as always) but largely the outrage would be confined to that nation. Seems to be pretty much the case here as well - outrage in Germany is high, but here in Canada, not much, most of the concern is how this will be used by people against the refugees (naturally racists).

 

Still wonder there were no cops around at all when this was going on.

 

 

They weren't prepared and understaffed. One of the victims groped was a female officer. And maybe there really are no-go zones in the EU, where police don't bother confronting such behavior. 

[HoonDing]

Only the Pied Piper can save Germany now

 

 

just be sure to pay him this time