Journalism and bias in the gaming industry

[cirdanx]

 

The idea that SJWism is an actual movement, and not just some crazies on twitter, is hard to buy into.  

 

They're definitely a movement every bit as much as gamergate is, they'd just label themselves as being 'for social justice' or 'progressives' or whatever instead of being the rather more perjorative 'sjw' their opponents call them. That's pretty much the same as GGers calling themselves 'pro Gamer' instead of 'GooberGobblers'.

 

*

 

I don´t think they are a movement. They are just a group of people, and anyone who isn´t in that group is against them.

 

A  movement has an agenda, a goal, we could argue that gamergate is also not a movement..and it isn´t really. Though they had a goal, to bring themselves out of the bad image that gaming has, and be finally respected. Which, despite a big amount of charity work, and trying to explain it...didn´t work out. In this case, thanks to those idiots who call themselves SJW, who use their "fame" to support themselve. I don´t think i have to put a link to that kickstarter do i?

 

They are a small group, and they have no saying. It´s the PR people who always want to please everyone and then change a game. Which is stupid. Look at the recent Witcher 3 "sexist" blablabla...yet..any changes from CCP? Nope, because thats how you deal with it. You ignore them. They are not important.

 

A more interesting discussion would be, on how we can establish "gaming" as something normal. Think about it:

 

I can´t even count the moments in my life (i´m 32) where i was looked down on, because i play games? Seriously..thats ****ed, but the moment i mention reading or movies everything is ok?

 

Depending where you live, "gamers" are treated like kids. E-sports, while extremly popular (DotA, LoL, SC2) is just not recognized, because "games are for children". It´s kinda sad, but it´s the same with every new kind of media...it wasn´t much different when cinema came out or tv or cd´s etc. People will come around, even if it takes a generation. But the bias is always there for the medium.

[Hurlshort]

 

 

I don´t think they are a movement. They are just a group of people, and anyone who isn´t in that group is against them.

 

 

Not surprisingly, I get that impression every time I discuss stuff with some of the gamergaters.  I've been called an SJW a number of times despite doing zero social justice warrioring.  Plus they go after Bruce like a pack of rabid dogs every time he posts his weird stuff.  

[Barothmuk]

Is the reality... i can safely assume that at least 95% of general population and probably nearly 90% of gaming population have no idea what these people are talking about or dismiss them like you dismiss ravings of your street junkie or some radical who is surrounded by crazy mass stroking the ego of some sick commune leader.

It's the same with GG. I literally don't know a single person who even knew what it was. When explained their result was usually some variation of "Who gives a ****?".

 

Most of this is just crazy internet drama.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Yeah, which is why if I were really pushed to pick the most accurate (though perhaps least inaccurate would be fairer) label I'd call the 'Cultural Marxism' phenomenon 'Cultural Fascism' instead due to the belief that some people are just inherently 'bad' due solely to the accident of birth.

I suppose that makes sense, but I'd rather just call them SJWs instead of slap a label on them that doesn't fit very well.

 

To be fair though, they don't really have identity as being immutable, hence the number of mtf transsexuals who are sjws and who are readily accepted. That's a pretty large change to require for acceptance though, certainly.

I disagree, transgender are viewed as having been that way since birth, so it is something that is immutable in their view.

[Malcador]

I'd prefer to just slap them, rather than slap a label on them.

[Zoraptor]

A  movement has an agenda, a goal, we could argue that gamergate is also not a movement..and it isn´t really. Though they had a goal, to bring themselves out of the bad image that gaming has, and be finally respected. Which, despite a big amount of charity work, and trying to explain it...didn´t work out. In this case, thanks to those idiots who call themselves SJW, who use their "fame" to support themselve.

 

 

The term 'movement' is a rather subjective one and is a sliding scale depending on personal opinion but to my mind you need three things to have a movement

 

1) an organisation, and crucially self identification of members with that organisation

2) an agenda

3) external recognition

 

Both groups fulfil those three criteria, imo. I can see how people might disagree with the organisation crierion, since neither has a particularly set hierarchical structure or with them having an agenda since there is a fair bit of methodology wiggle and variation in goals within those groups, I simply disagree with those conclusions.

 

My counterpoints would be that you don't need a strong hierarchy to have an organisation- and certainly not to have a movement- you just need it to be organised enough to be broadly identifiable and coherent; and you don't need everyone to agree wholly with an agenda- the Democratic Party doesn't stop being an organisation if some vote for and some against the TPPA, they just have to generally agree. Both sides have reddit groups and do stuff on facebook or twitter and organise campaigns and the like, both sides largely self identify as the 'positive' version of their group (eg 'pro gamer' or 'progressive' or 'feminist') and both sides (and to a reasonable extent, people outside those groups) broadly speaking recognise each other as distinct groups.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Zoraptor

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'd prefer to just slap them, rather than slap a label on them.

I would too, but I don't want an assault charge.

[Darkpriest]

 

Is the reality... i can safely assume that at least 95% of general population and probably nearly 90% of gaming population have no idea what these people are talking about or dismiss them like you dismiss ravings of your street junkie or some radical who is surrounded by crazy mass stroking the ego of some sick commune leader.

It's the same with GG. I literally don't know a single person who even knew what it was. When explained their result was usually some variation of "Who gives a ****?".

 

Most of this is just crazy internet drama.

 

 

Yes, I did not mean any other thing than precisely this... all this twitter, facebook, whatever drama is spinned by some vocal "street junkies" who a vast majority of people do not give two Fs about.

 

They are busy either making money or having fun. Unless it is about taxes no one will give a damn as long as it is not personal... If not for this forum and this particular thread I would never even hear about SJW, AS, McIntosh (if i spell hat right), gamer gate and whatever other drama queens there are on the internet...

 

To quote a certain famous writer of old age...

 

“I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet.”

― Stanisław Lem

[kirottu]

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/3a6j7m/happeningsthe_game_dev_behind_mechanical/

 

Hi KiA

Sorry for the typos and weird syntax, english is not my mother tongue. I am Gilles Matouba and there is a thin chance of you knowing me. Still, I am a veteran french game developer with 15 years of experience in the industry. Mostly at Ubisoft and Eidos Montreal. Until september 2014 I was the Game Director of DXMD at Eidos Montreal. 3 years ago Andre Vu, the Brand Director of the DX franchise, and I coined the term 'Mechanical Apartheid'. Thing is... I am Black (& French...). And Andre is Asian (& French).

 

When we decided to go all-in on delivering the experience to play as Adam Jensen, an Augmented, in a world agressively segragating his own kind, we actually wanted to offer to our audience something unique. Something that was close and very personal to us: The experience of being torn between 2 worlds and 2 identities. Augs calling you the 'uncle Tom' of the non-augs, non-augs always insecure when you're around, always deeply being scared or appaled by your mechanical body. Somehow, it was our own individual stories... We wanted to share a little part of our own life experience (on a super dramatized degree, of course) as visible minorities in a world of prejudices sometimes not well tailored for us. We also used the reference of south africa, israel, even brasil, french and american ghettos and any country ressorting to walls in order to segratgate a part of their own population. We meant it. This was important to us to not half-ass these analogies. BECAUSE THIS IS DEUS EX.

 

Deus Ex is a very mature and thoughtful franchise that wants to hook gamers on essential questions and considerations: power, control, species, science, sociology, singularity, etc.

 

Racism is a ey dark part of our human nature and we wanted to treat this subject. It was especially important for ME to treat this. So it makes me sad and angry that these ignorant people just ASSUME that everyone behind this game is ill-spirited, stupid, and more importantly for me, that they that they are all WHITE. (For them devs==white, gamers==white)

What these bloggers and tweeters did to me here is beyond mere insults: They have degraded me and have literally erased my identity as a black developer and as a black creator that just wanted to share a piece of himself with this game. I wish that they will feel bad about it. I wish they will have the decency to apologize of their gross false assumptions and accusations. To apologize to all the people back in Quebec that have been working hard FOR YEARS to make this game to happen. But since they have no spine, no shame and no self respect they will simply ignore this post (once again denying me voice, legitimacy and identity) and will at best move on another AAA target to toss their freshly defecated **** at. They don't deserve anyone's attention. They don't deserve our industry, our games and the dedication we put into them. They disgust me.

 

TL : DR Asian guy and black guy came up with the term Mechanical Apartheid 3 years ago. Black guy not happy about the SJW **** tweets and wants to call them out and expose their stupidity. Black guy is not their shield.

SJW response: doesn't matter, he's french.

[Namutree]

 

To the SJWs, white, cis, male, whatever are acting to perpetuate a oppressive structure because reasons, and identity is immutable.

Yeah, which is why if I were really pushed to pick the most accurate (though perhaps least inaccurate would be fairer) label I'd call the 'Cultural Marxism' phenomenon 'Cultural Fascism' instead due to the belief that some people are just inherently 'bad' due solely to the accident of birth.

 

I agree. Cultural fascism seems like a more sensible label than cultural marxism.

[Meshugger]

An SJW is so easy to spot. They'll just say "Games/Gaming need to grow up!". It's there, everything bumd compartmentalized in one sentence.

 

But a fair warning to everyone boasting "who cares, it's just the internet!"; almost all social interaction has moved from the street into the social media on the internet in the last five years, and that is for people who are old enough to remember at time without mobile phones. We now have a generation growing up knowing of nothing but the internet, so it is already quite serious and will be more in the future.

 

...and people wonder why political/corporate power wants to control the flow of information and framing narratives.

[BruceVC]

An SJW is so easy to spot. They'll just say "Games/Gaming need to grow up!". It's there, everything bumd compartmentalized in one sentence.

 

But a fair warning to everyone boasting "who cares, it's just the internet!"; almost all social interaction has moved from the street into the social media on the internet in the last five years, and that is for people who are old enough to remember at time without mobile phones. We now have a generation growing up knowing of nothing but the internet, so it is already quite serious and will be more in the future.

 

...and people wonder why political/corporate power wants to control the flow of information and framing narratives.

 

I wouldn't say Games/Gaming need to grow up

 

I would rather say that some  gamers need to take a  more reasonable and constructive view around general suggestions to make the gaming industry more progressive and inclusive 

[Meshugger]

^See what i mean?

[Barothmuk]

We now have a generation growing up knowing of nothing but the internet

And this is why we're all doomed.

[Meshugger]

 

We now have a generation growing up knowing of nothing but the internet

And this is why we're all doomed.

 

 

Or you fight with the same fight, just switching the platform. The power of memes is stronger than you think.

[BruceVC]

 

 

We now have a generation growing up knowing of nothing but the internet

And this is why we're all doomed.

 

 

Or you fight with the same fight, just switching the platform. The power of memes is stronger than you think.

 

 

Meshugger it will be a completely counter-productive exercise if you think being obstructive to changes in the gaming industry will achieve anything?

 

Also to say "people only know the Internet " as a justification to this resistance around  debates  on progressive changes also doesn't make sense to me. People should learn that RL discussions around inclusivity are same as Internet\forum discussions on these topics. The "big picture end game result " still applies 

 

And as I keep mentioning, become part of the solution....not the problem

[Bartimaeus]

 

Meshugger it will be a completely counter-productive exercise if you think being obstructive to changes in the gaming industry will achieve anything?

 

And as I keep mentioning, become part of the solution....not the problem

 

 

 

That's what we keep trying to tell you. All a matter of perspective, Bruce.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

 

Meshugger it will be a completely counter-productive exercise if you think being obstructive to changes in the gaming industry will achieve anything?

 

And as I keep mentioning, become part of the solution....not the problem

 

 

 

That's what we keep trying to tell you. All a matter of perspective, Bruce.

 

Barti I have been part of the solution from day 1 

[Fighter]

 

And this is why we're all doomed.

 

 

Isn't this basically what the previous generation always says about the next one?

[Namutree]

 

 

And this is why we're all doomed.

 

 

Isn't this basically what the previous generation always says about the next one?

 

All those generations were doomed. 

[BruceVC]

 

 

And this is why we're all doomed.

 

 

Isn't this basically what the previous generation always says about the next one?

 

Yeah they do, the good news is we don't have to make excuses for historical inaction or views

 

We can just focus on the current issues and the way forward irrespective of the past.  So what I typically do is think " what is the best solution to address issue x " ...remember we are more informed and knowledgeable than any previous generation...so lets use it constructively 

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

We now have a generation growing up knowing of nothing but the internet

And this is why we're all doomed.

 

 

Or you fight with the same fight, just switching the platform. The power of memes is stronger than you think.

 

 

Meshugger it will be a completely counter-productive exercise if you think being obstructive to changes in the gaming industry will achieve anything?

 

Also to say "people only know the Internet " as a justification to this resistance around  debates  on progressive changes also doesn't make sense to me. People should learn that RL discussions around inclusivity are same as Internet\forum discussions on these topics. The "big picture end game result " still applies 

 

And as I keep mentioning, become part of the solution....not the problem

 

 

I am searching for truth, no matter the medium or how it is conveyed.

 

People rationalize solutions for everything, even if there was nothing substantial in the manufactured problem to begin with. SJWs are the perfect useful idiots in this equation, why? Take occupy wall street for example: The main cause was the bankers and the corrupt officials should be prosecuted at best and fired at worst for their involvment with the crisis. Here comes the SJWs with their "progressive stacks", as now suddenly the message, the tactics and strategies were not that important anymore. What was paramount was finding the ones most oppressed and stack them in a hierarchy of which order to speak, because their experiences were the most valuable ones and should be discussed.

 

The organizers couldn't get anything done since most of them was 1) white and 2) low end of the progressive stack and they simply packed their bags and went home. Nothing was accomplished except for the imaginary experiences of oppression was discussed. So again, they are useful idiots to deploy on traditionally leftist causes as they seem to be completely oblivious on how much they divide everyone and everything. I mean, it is not something new, Monty Python realized this ages ago:

 

[Malcador]

I wouldn't say Games/Gaming need to grow up

 

I would rather say that some  gamers need to take a  more reasonable and constructive view around general suggestions to make the gaming industry more progressive and inclusive

So many words to express the same sentiment.

 

In further comedy, apparently FO4's presentation was offensive - https://archive.is/bYe1H

Edited June 18, 2015 by Malcador

[BruceVC]

 

I wouldn't say Games/Gaming need to grow up

 

I would rather say that some  gamers need to take a  more reasonable and constructive view around general suggestions to make the gaming industry more progressive and inclusive

So many words to express the same sentiment.

 

In further comedy, apparently FO4's presentation was offensive - https://archive.is/bYe1H

 

 

This comment summarizes my view on the topic 

 

" While the dress sequence, for the moment, was meant for shock value, I’m not sure Bethesda’s intention was to be transphobic. They come from a very limited scope, but it’s also necessary to think about the fact that the story takes place in an alternate- 1950’s: a glimpse of what persons of that period imagined the future to be. Although homosexuality did exist in the 1950’s, in no way was it accepted, and thus it wouldn’t be a huge part in *their* future. Other than the opening sequence of this Fallout game, there hasn’t been much of an emphasis on relationships as a whole: it’s about survival, ultimately, as one’s individual person with your dog. As someone who is part of the LGBTQ+ community, and is a huge trans activist, the sequence as a whole was meant to capture the absurd. I don’t think Bethesda would have ever meant it as a personal attack  "  

[Volourn]

"And as I keep mentioning, become part of the solution....not the problem"\

 

SJWs are the problem.

 

And, people crying about the FO4 video being 'transphobic' are evil nazis scumbags. PERIOD.