Journalism and bias in the gaming industry

[Blarghagh]

Continued from here: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/79649-journalism-and-bias-in-the-gaming-industry/page-38

 

Same ol' stock description starting every thread here:

 

For the uninitiated: The 'Gamergate' controversy was sparked in early 2013, as the release of Zoe Quinn's "Depression Quest" was criticized from gamers who believed that the game had received a suspicious amount of attention in relation to it's quality and scope. Eron Gjoni (Zoe's ex boyfriend) wrote a blogpost accusing Quinn of having had an affair with Kotaku journalist Grayson, prompting the critics to conclude that the attention and success of "Depression Quest" was due in part to unfair bias and nepotism in the industry.

 

Several articles from both sides of the issue has highlighted inconsistencies in the stories of both Grayson, Quinn and Eron as well as the many other examples that have followed.

 

Gamergate is wideley seen in the public, as a culture war over the diversification of gaming, artistic recognition and social criticism of video games and the gamer social identity.

 

For the posters in this thread:

Many bloggers and populists have tried to steer the discussion into areas they feel are the underlying issue - ranging from simple bias, to widespread misogny or misandry. I would however prefer that we keep this discussion as objective and clean as possible and so I will be keeping an a extra close eye on this thread. This certainly does not mean that you may not discuss any issue you feel, but rather that you should be thoughtful of  how  you discuss it with those you disagree with.

 

Especially in regards to these three guidelines:

 

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[Meshugger]

Before we wil continue debating, i will like to remind you with an euphemism:

 

[Malcador]

There is a lack of people with glasses in games.

[Meshugger]

There is a lack of people with glasses in games.

 

Sometimes the most radical thing to do is to listen & believe when people with glasses tell of their experiences.

[Meshugger]

This is now a thing, thanks to Mia Consalvo, president of DiGRA

 

https://twitter.com/hashtag/deatheaters

[Malcador]

Idiots and their hashtags

[luzarius]

I think females in video games should stay highly sexualized, but the game should also offer highly sexualized males for the ladies.  I understand that some games may demand a high level of realism, aka realistic looking people, especially if set in a modern city like setting, but most of the time going with a supermodel is the way to go in fantastical games. The hotter the better. I want to see something that captures my imagination.

 

Spartacus Blood and Sand is a good example of a series that offers something for the guys, gals and the gays, hence everyone is happy.

 

I don't like how the Dragon Age Team writers censored the Dragon Age series by removing brothels, removing sexualized npc's, giving a lot of the women bizarre shaved heads and making the only two romance options for straight male gamers ugly as hell in which one looks like a man.

 

We need more GTA, more Witcher, more Mortal Kombat X, more violence, more sex with little to no censorship. I like the dark theme that is present in Pillars of Eternity and wouldn't mind if it was darker and more explicit. I don't say these things lightly, I just like to be shocked with thought provoking content.

 

I also think the LGBT & feminist agendas are getting out of hand, it completely destroyed Dragon Age Inquisition and I hope it doesn't infect other games.  Does this mean I don't want to see gay charactes in games? NO, it just means that if you're going to make content for straight males, make sure a LGBT or feminist isn't in charge of the decision making for that specific content. Makes sense right?

 

If an RPG game comes out based on African culture, I'm not going to expect them to include a white person just to be politically correct.

Edited June 6, 2015 by luzarius

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

There is a lack of people with glasses in games.

There's a stunning lack of CIA agents in games as well.

[GhoulishVisage]

Here's a good little writeup on Witcher 3 and it's representation of Polish culture:

http://www.giantbomb.com/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt/3030-41484/forums/on-the-witcher-3-culture-and-representation-1773068/#27

 

 

 

 

With a title like this, this could be just another one of these click-bait articles and threads that you've probably browsed enough of for this week. I'll do my best to offer something more on the issue, my own perspective, hence why this is a pretty personal blog post rather than an entry on some thread.

The Witcher 3 is, for me, a truly unique game. A game that holds me for hours at a time, devouring the fantastic world and lore. But it feels different from other world class fantasy games. I could not quite tell what it was, but I was sure that it didn't have to do just with the great environments, lighting, and the thrill of taking down a griffin mid-flight. Often times while playing it I find myself smirking at the humor, and opening my mouth in an honest giggle; something which is very rarely the case while playing other games. I could not fully grasp what made me it so special, until I was given a prod (well, more of a shove) by a blog post shared in this thread. It all finally clicked, and I realized what it was:

The Witcher 3; no, Wiedźmin 3 is the first game that makes me feel represented.

At this point many of you might seem confused. To a certain extent, I was too. This makes little sense. I am white, I am male, I am straight, I am 20; all of the boxes are checked. 90% or so of games are being made for me, tailored specifically to my liking, exclusively for my demographic, or so I'm told. Celebrimbor is white, John 'Soap' MacTavish is male, Commander Shepard is straight. The notion that I am underrepresented is not warranted.

And then, I saw on the list a box that has never been ticked. The ink has almost crumbled away and the dust has covered some of the letters, but for the first time, I put a check mark next to it.

"I am Polish."

It all clicked. I finally realized what that gut feeling was. See, Vesemir's face? It kinda reminds me of my grandpa, with the nose and all that. The main menu music sounds pleasantly reminiscent of festivals I have attended, with the female moans and all. That little kid chanting about how 'cesarz Emhyr narobił w gacie' (Emhyr shat his pants) brings my little rascal of a cousin to mind. The painted flowers on the walls of the inn? I have ones just like that on the curtains in my summer house, in Kaszuby. They're all around the town, with the blue and red petals and everything. And referring to Vodka as 'Wódeczka'? Well, that's just every party I've attended, every wedding I've been to.

You see, the Witcher 3 isn't 'a third person action fantasy role playing game'. It doesn't 'have a medieval setting with references to Slavic mythology'. It doesn't 'borrow from eastern european folklore'. Wiedźmin 3 is a Polish game, about Polish culture.

So, upon the release of the game, while reading numerous threads, blog posts, articles, and reviews, I sometimes felt something which I have never felt when reading game coverage: I felt insulted.

'Everyone is white, why don't they just throw in a few people of color in there, it would make everyone feel more represented.'

'The developers included an English translation, so I see no reason why the writers wouldn't change the world by adding non-white characters. They didn't choose to make the dialogue exclusively Polish, they've already sacrificed integrity, why not make marginalized groups more represented.'

[sic]'We’re part of an industry that frequently tells the stories of white people and stars white people. (...) Thus, wanting more people of color in stories that focus on mythology for a predominantly white culture doesn’t work the other way. Wanting white people in spaces dedicated to people of color ignores that stories of white people already dominate this and other creative industries. It’s "What about me?" when everything is already about you.'

'Stories of white people.'

'White culture'.

'Everything is already about you.'

Is it?

What about stories of Polish people?

What about Polish culture?

Is it really all about us?

Are we really that widely represented?

Is Polish culture just a subset of 'white culture'?

Are Polish stories just 'white stories'?

No.

We have our own traditions, mythology, folklore, history, and culture. As shocking as it may seem, there are actually elements of the Witcher 3 which will go unnoticed by Swedes, Germans, Norwegians, the French, the Dutch, or the Americans; even though they are all, more often than not, white. The reason for it is simple:

Skin color does not define culture.

After reading some of the Witcher 3 coverage I am under the impression that many people have this misguided notion that culture and tradition is skin deep. That the desire to be represented should be satisfied by the player character having pigment of a tone similar to yours. That the developers of CD Projekt are somehow obligated to combat the oversaturation of white player characters, because [sic] 'We’re part of an industry that frequently tells the stories of white people and stars white people.'

As a Pole, I am basically told that all of my desires of representation are already satisfied by the skin color of major video game protagonists. Call of Duty protagonists are white, what's all the fuss about? There's tons of games with white people! We don't need another one of these!

Well, I do.

It's one thing to call for representation, and it's one thing to criticize; both of those I'm all for. I would love to play more games telling stories of Indians, Brazilians, Italians, Ethiopians, Egiptians, Arabs, trans people, gays, lesbians, minorities; if you have a story to tell, I think you should be able to tell it.

But don't tell me that the story of Poles has been told, that's it's all about me, because I can play a white guy in a shooter. Don't tell me I don't need this, don't tell me that the story has been told without proper consideration of your people, don't tell me it should be changed because it doesn't fit diversity quotas.

Because that's insulting.

The Witcher 3 is not 'another one of those white stories'. It's a Polish story, arguably the best in the whole medium, one that I'm glad I can experience.

Now forgive me, I have some drowners to scorch.

 

 

 

Poland has been on the short end of recent history's proverbial stick.
They were invaded by both Germany and Russia in 1939 and slaughtered mercilessly under German occupation.
Once the Germans were pushed out by the Russians the Soviets decided to set up camp and not leave. Over the next decades the Polish were subjected to Soviet rule and have their culture further ground down by the harsh Communist laws.
When the Soviets eventually fell Poland was once again independent, but much like other ex-Soviet countries they were not prosperous like their new Western friends.

Western European countries, Britain, the USA and Japan have all contributed hundreds of movies and video-games that are acclaimed internationally and have shaped popular culture.
Eastern European countries? Not so much.
Sure the were some things, but not very much, and most media produced there could be considered to have "cult" followings, if it does have any Western following at all.

 

So when Poland created the Witcher they were incredibly proud of it. So proud in fact, that a copy of The Witcher 2 was presented to Barack Obama when he visited there.

When The Witcher 3 was completed the Polish Prime Minister personally visited and thanked the developers of the game.
She said:

“You do really good job for Poland. You are great ambassadors of the modern Polish brand all over the world – I’d like to thank you for this very much”

You can hear the pride in her voice that something Polish is getting recognition and love internationally. Not just any something, but something quintessentially Polish.

She considers them ambassadors, and an ambassador generally acts as a representative of a culture and a country.

I feel that sneering and spitting on The Witcher because it doesn't mirror your West Coast USA sensibilities is actually a bit selfish and narrow-minded.

Edited June 6, 2015 by GhoulishVisage

[Zoraptor]

Yeah, I think anyone with any sense thinks that the Polish culture == US/ 'white' culture opinion is pretty moronic. The same people who think that would probably be deeply offended if you implied Ethiopian culture and US Black Urban culture were the same thing, or Chinese and Indian. Or not, who knows with sjws.

 

Funny thing is, TWitcher1 did have a non white guy (well, at least not whitey white, from his name Azar Javed is presumably meant to be vaguely arab/ subcontinental) and a guy with glasses and they're the bad guys up until you get to the white privileged male oppressor (or alternatively the guy who overcame a hard childhood to become a strong and powerful leader on his own merits, a man willing to do what needed to be done to prepare humanity for an inevitable bleak future) at the end. No CIA agents though Alpha Protocol has them, along with a plane crash.

 

On the other hand, saying that CDPR are good storytellers and could put 'pocs' in seamlessly if they really wanted is a bit of a specious argument; they may equally have considered doing so and decided that- as good storytellers- they couldn't do so without shoehorning and tokenism that would itself act against good storytelling.

[Meshugger]

Derek smart tries to stay neutral, but it's not easy:

 

[kirottu]

Slightly off topic, but I feel this fits with the recent Witcher 3 discussions: It’s time for Marvel to make Magneto black.

 

Yeah, let's take the one iconic jewish superhero/villain and a holocaust survivor, and make him black. These people... they really can't see diversity past skin color or gender. Not to mention how america centrist would changing a holocaust survivor to black civil rights movement activist be.

Edited June 8, 2015 by kirottu

[Meshugger]

Slightly off topic, but I feel this fits with the recent Witcher 3 discussions: It’s time for Marvel to make Magneto black.

 

Yeah, let's take the one iconic jewish superhero/villain and a holocaust survivor, and make him black. These people... they really can't see diversity past skin color or gender. Not to mention how america centrist would changing a holocaust survivor to black civil rights movement activist be.

 

So he will be a civil rights activist that has given up and wants a race war instead? Would be something new at least

 

Thank god for copyrights by the way, because as it seems much will be rewritten to the extent that nothing will mean anything any more. Think of the classics: Dune, Lord of the Rings, The Great Gatsby etc and what kind of terror those kinds of moralists/idealists have already unleashed with removing/changing "insensitive" words.

[Volourn]

"The Great Gatsby"

 

Eh... GG has already been remade with black characters...

[Meshugger]

"The Great Gatsby"

 

Eh... GG has already been remade with black characters...

 

Ignorance sure is a bliss sometimes

[ShadySands]

G is not a good movie by any means but it's also not as bad as it may seem from the description. It's the same basic Gatsby story retold in modern times rather than the exact same setting with a color swap which wouldn't make any sense

 

Edit- I don't mind race or gender swaps as long as it makes sense for the story and the characters

Edited June 8, 2015 by ShadySands

[Volourn]

I never said it was good or bad. I've tried to find before but can't seem to see.  I wouldn't mind watching it to judge.

[Meshugger]

G is not a good movie by any means but it's also not as bad as it may seem from the description. It's the same basic Gatsby story retold in modern times rather than the exact same setting with a color swap which wouldn't make any sense

 

Edit- I don't mind race or gender swaps as long as it makes sense for the story and the characters

 

Well to be fair, i maybe lashed out unnecesseraly. The book is still the same, while an adaption is just that, another adaption with some more current flairs thrown in. If they were doing a "revised" edition of the original book though, uuurgh.

[Ineth]

Slightly off topic, but I feel this fits with the recent Witcher 3 discussions: It’s time for Marvel to make Magneto black.

 

Yeah, let's take the one iconic jewish superhero/villain and a holocaust survivor, and make him black. These people... they really can't see diversity past skin color or gender. Not to mention how america centrist would changing a holocaust survivor to black civil rights movement activist be.

 

Yeah, being a Jewish Holocaust survivor is pretty darn central to Magneto's character.

 

I mean sure, they could give him a completely different identity - but at that point, even why keep the name?

[BruceVC]

 

Slightly off topic, but I feel this fits with the recent Witcher 3 discussions: It’s time for Marvel to make Magneto black.

 

Yeah, let's take the one iconic jewish superhero/villain and a holocaust survivor, and make him black. These people... they really can't see diversity past skin color or gender. Not to mention how america centrist would changing a holocaust survivor to black civil rights movement activist be.

 

Yeah, being a Jewish Holocaust survivor is pretty darn central to Magneto's character.

 

I mean sure, they could give him a completely different identity - but at that point, even why keep the name?

 

Cant he be a black Jewish person....then we kill two birds with one stone as far as inclusivity is concerned 

[Nonek]

Waiting for answers from the end of the last thread.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Nonek

[Keyrock]

Call me crazy, but I find retconning established history, both real world and fictitious, for the purposes of being able to include a token characters so that you can trumpet how 'diverse' your work is and show off your ethnicity checklist a heck of a lot more offensive than creating a work that does not include a diverse cast but sticks to a cohesive theme.

[Malcador]

Developing is harder than patching, and people are terribly lazy.

[Amentep]

Slightly off topic, but I feel this fits with the recent Witcher 3 discussions: It’s time for Marvel to make Magneto black.

 

Yeah, let's take the one iconic jewish superhero/villain and a holocaust survivor, and make him black. These people... they really can't see diversity past skin color or gender. Not to mention how america centrist would changing a holocaust survivor to black civil rights movement activist be.

 

There is truth the the problem that Magneto is tied to a time and place that is slowly aging him out of relevance. The same thing happened with DC's EARTH 2 characters who, when re-introduced in the 60s on an alternate universe were in their 40s and 50s so served as slightly older hero types to the DCU of Earth 1.  But by the 1990s were in their 70s and editorial (if not fans) had trouble seeing them as being viable and killed them all off.

 

The solution, IMO, isn't to turn around and tie them to a date that isn't that far removed from the one that is problematic.  For example Magneto in the Singer movies (cited in the article) is about 13 years old (not 10 as the article suggests).   The date given is 1944, meaning Lehnsherr was born in 1931.  Since the suggestion is to tie Professor X and Magneto into the US Civil Rights movements, you have to consider that Malcolm X was killed in 1965; assuming that both Xavier and Lensherr should be adults, this would put them as being born anywere from 1935 (30 when Malcolm X was killed and able to be there for much of the 50s and 60s history points) to 1945 (20 when Malcolm X was killed).  This means a character who is anywhere to 4 years to 14 years younger than a Magneto tied the concentration camps.  So you're trading an 80 year old for a 70 year old. 

 

To me the solution would be to not tie them to any dates at all, if you could avoid it - that is if you were going to worry about it at all.

 

BTW Marvel claims that the Secret Wars isn't a reboot, so there's no telling if there will be any continuity fixes out of it or not.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Amentep

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Call me crazy, but I find retconning established history, both real world and fictitious, for the purposes of being able to include a token characters so that you can trumpet how 'diverse' your work is and show off your ethnicity checklist a heck of a lot more offensive than creating a work that does not include a diverse cast but sticks to a cohesive theme.

In my opinion, it seems a bit insulting that instead of creating an interesting character of whatever ethnicity/race(black most of the time) they insist on changing a white character into a black character. Like putting on blackface and saying that's good enough.