The state of Chanters

[Zwiebelchen]

Currently, chanters are one of the worst scaling classes in PoE. So much that I consider them semi-broken as of now.

 

Let me get this straight: I love the idea of the Chanter class, being more or less a low-maintenance passive second-row damage dealer with some tanking and buffing potential, that has the power to throw in the big guns after a longer amount of time.

As PoE is very micro-heavy, Chanters are a nice change of pace and a great addition to the party, especially if you don't like extensive rest and pause spamming.

 

However, there are three fundamental flaws in the design of the Chanter class, that will prevent them from keeping up with the progression of other classes (they are great at the beginning of the game, though):

 

1) highlevel phrases have a longer duration than lowlevel phrases

2) highlevel invocations require more phrases than lowlevel phrases

3) all phrases are mutual exclusive. Granted, phrases have a linger time, which allows having two phrases active at the same time, but that's about it.

 

So what does all that combined mean for the class?

- If you want to use your higher level phrases, you take longer to accumulate phrase stacks

- If you want to use your higher level invocations, you need more phrase stacks

- half of your level ups will just increase your spell variety, it will not allow you to use more spells.

 

Given that the average battle in PoE takes roughly the same amount of time at the beginning of the game and the end of the game (with some exceptions), it becomes clear that Chanters are pretty much stuck at a zero-progression state. Most of your highlevel invocations are almost never used, as battles are simply not long enough for them to come into play. You are more or less forced to decide between using highlevel phrases, ditching invocations or using invocations, using only a single phrase to build up stacks fast.

No other class has to make as much compromises in their gameplay as Chanters.

 

 

 

So, possible solutions to fix this should adress primarily the increased time it takes to reach and use highlevel phrases/invocations.

 

Here's some solutions for this issue; which are not mutual exclusive and can pretty much be mixed and matched to taste:

 

1) Phrases don't extend in duration with level. There is already enough of a tradeoff by using higher level phrases: that you can't use lowlevel phrases at the same time and that you need to level to get access to this phrase.

 

2) Invocations always require 3 stacks, regardless of invocation level; really, there is no need to extend the passivity of this class even further, especially since average battle length does not change throughout the game.

 

3) My personal favorite: let invocations not consume phrase stacks. Instead, limit the invocations to 1 cast per encounter per invocation level and increase the phrase requirement for progressing invocations. So reaching 3 stacks will allow you to cast a level 1 invocation once. Reaching 5 stacks will allow you to use a level 2 invocation or another level 1 invocation, etc.

This will make sure that "older" invocations don't become useless once you get access to the newer ones, while still maintaining that "growing stronger" feel of the class. Obviously, as you reach the current maximum of phrases, you should switch to use long-duration phrases, as there's not much more to gain from stacking up more phrases.

 

4) As the character rises in level, make the duration of phrases go down and increase the linger time by the same amount; this will allow the Chanter to use more phrases at the same time or use stronger phrases without artifically extending the time needed to reach the required amount of stacks of an invocation.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Gorionsson]

Yes, chanters are way too slow.

Currently only useful on Potd. But the crazy summons would be OP if used early in encounters.

 

This class needs a complete  rework, IMO.

 

Good suggestions.

[Zwiebelchen]

Yes, chanters are way too slow.

Currently only useful on Potd. But the crazy summons would be OP if used early in encounters.

 

This class needs a complete  rework, IMO.

 

Good suggestions.

 

As I said, it's not only about the summons getting into play too late. It's about stronger skills having a longer duration and higher requirements in general, making the class slower and slower with rising level.

 

Ciphers have a similar concept, in which higher level abilities require more focus. However, there is one big difference between Ciphers and Chanters:

Ciphers actually scale in focus generation with level, as with rising level, you will gain access to better weapons, dealing more damage, generating more focus.

 

Chanters are stuck with the default duration of phrases with no level-scaling at all.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Bubbles]

You can build up full phrases in most encounters just by running away from the enemies for a while, or, later on, by using per-encounter spells like Hold or Withdraw. Keeping that in mind, I think the best way to address balance issues would be to allow mid-level Chanters to start with a certain amount of stacks and rebalance the invocations to compensate for that.

 

You can also go the per-encounter route, but starting them off at per-encounters would be very OP during the early levels, and turning them into per-encounters with increasing level could feel like a nerf (since you can technically get infinite invos per battle with the current system).

 

The ideal solution would be to make stack gain scale with something that requires you to be in combat.

You can do something like "for every friend/enemy affected by your chant aura, you gain one stack every x seconds", with lower level chants getting size increases as you level and high level chants starting with reduced range. That would somewhat fix the problem of difficulty scaling, making Chanters feel active during trash fights while keeping their balance for long boss fights. It would take a massive systems overhaul and would give the class a completely different feel though.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Bubbles

[Valorian]

You can build up full phrases in most encounters just by running away from the enemies for a while

 

I really dislike this because it goes against the essence of the class (you need to endure through x seconds of combat to build up something powerful). That's why running to a choke point with a chanter feels like cheating.

 

Chanting should be active only when an enemy is in range of the chant and when the chanter is not moving. 

[Zwiebelchen]

The ideal solution would be to make stack gain scale with something that requires you to be in combat.

You can do something like "for every friend/enemy affected by your chant aura, you gain one stack every x seconds", with lower level chants getting size increases as you level and high level chants starting with reduced range. That would somewhat fix the problem of difficulty scaling, making Chanters feel active during trash fights while keeping their balance for long boss fights. It would take a massive systems overhaul and would give the class a completely different feel though.

 

This won't change the inverse level progression of chanter power.

Encounters at endgame are not larger than encounters in the early game. The scaling of chant/invocation times should happen by level, not by anything related to encounter design.

[MunoValente]

I've build my chanter as a full on tank, taking pretty much all the best defensive skills available and using the best, heaviest armor and shields and it's been pretty effective, the chants keep coming, even if they are slow otherwise and putting them frontline keeps them close to enemies for skills that need that, they are sort of a more interesting variations of a paladin.  While I find this to be pretty effective I don't think it was necessarily the intent with how the class was designed, but they don't really seem to have enough abilities to be used effectively in other ways.

[rnarchlord]

I have my party hang back and have my tank sneak up to bow range.  After he shoots he runs back to the party.  By the time the enemy gets close to my [party my chanter usually has one or two phrases chanted so I can invoke/summon rather quickly.  Can't do this in all areas as some maps are fairly tight but it works in about 75% of the maps.

[HoopleDoople]

I've been using a Chanter on my PoTD run and I've been very disappointed with the class so far. In a straight fight battles are almost always decided before the Chanter can use even an invocation. At best I'm really just using Phantoms to minimize health damage while mopping up the last couple enemies. Outside of boss fights you pretty much have to either make enemies walk a long way to your party or chain encounters together in order to really make good use of the invocations.

 

I do think the concept of the Chanter is very solid, just not the execution. It is nice to have a low micro unit that provides passive benefits at all times and can periodically contribute with a powerful summon/ability.

 

I have some possible suggestions on how to improve the Chanter. Please note that these would all be straight buffs to the Chanter and thus would likely need to be paired with some nerfs, particularly to specific invocations. 

 

Option 1 - Allow mid level Chanters to start combat with one phrase and high level Chanters to start combat with two phrases. This will allow Chanters to dramatically scale with level but still preserve the trade-off between the weaker/faster chants and the stronger/slower ones.

 

Option 2 - Give Chanters modal talents that alter chants I'd suggest 3 different talents as follows:

 

-Chants are completed in half the time but provide only half the effect

-Level 2 and level 3 chants complete 2 seconds faster (i.e. level 1/2/3 chants would have a duration of 4/4/6 seconds)

-Chants effect increased 50%

 

*Chant linger duration would always scale with chant duration

 

This would allow Chanters to opt for quick invocations, powerful chants, or a balanced approach. Spending multiple talents on these would provide tactical flexibility to the Chanter.

 

Option 3 - Simply speed up chants. Perhaps chant duration could go from its current 4/6/8 seconds to 3/4.5/6 seconds. Again, the linger duration would scale appropriately.

Edited June 2, 2015 by HoopleDoople

[cctobias]

Yeah I made a post about a month ago basically saying exactly what the OP does, I think most people who care to do the numbers on the class realize its flawed in the long run.

 

The class needs another design iteration.  There are a number of ideas to address stuff.  A number of ways to go.  But bottom line the class can't possibly scale right given the way encounters scale.  Its pretty much inarguable.

 

They are mostly effective and fine as far as the released game of POE as is right now, although problematic at around level 9 still perfectly usable and useful.  But if we had a POE 2 that went to level 20 the class would absolutely have to be reworked.

[manageri]

I think the simple idea of higher level chanters starting with more and more phrases already up is a good one. Also I really think phrase duration needs to be normalized so higher level phrases don't take longer to perform. If these changes make something OP (like early summons) then adjust those invocations individually. Also, if this makes low level phrases bad at higher levels, then you can simply give them a longer linger time as you level up. Wouldn't it be more fun anyway that you could build slightly more complex songs as you level, with some less powerful but long lasting low level phrases mixed in between the higher level stuff?

Edited June 3, 2015 by manageri

[Manty5]

The reason they scale badly is because their primary ability isn't really improved by equipment, except possibly might and int buffs.  So unlike a cipher who gains more focus when she gets an exceptional weapon and therefore casts more,  when a chanter gets an exceptional weapon he... hits his one target a bit harder.  That's pretty much it.

 

"Their hearts grew bold" does the exact same thing on a level 1 nubby bar singer than on a fully geared level 12 voice-from-the-deeps, with the exception that maxxing int makes it last a bit longer.  That just isn't enough compared to other classes.

 

Even the chanter abilities don't improve the chants nor the invocations very much.

 

EDIT:  I'm actually a fan of the fact that your're forced to choose between "low-level chants but high level invocations" and "Powerful Chants but infrequent invocations".  I think that's a beautiful design decision that's marred by implementation issues... so I'm not a fan of any "solution" that just makes one of those more viable at the expense of the other.

 

Also remember that the low-maintainance nature of the class can be turned into an advantage:  You wouldn't want your barbarian reciting scrolls, because he needs to be hitting things already.  But Paladins and Chanters?  They should be reciting scrolls when you need them to.  Kind Wayfarers even covert scroll kills into healing.

 

Maybe that's where improvements could be focused, but I'm sure I can't of a way to do so.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Manty5

[cctobias]

The reason they scale badly is because their primary ability isn't really improved by equipment, except possibly might and int buffs.  So unlike a cipher who gains more focus when she gets an exceptional weapon and therefore casts more,  when a chanter gets an exceptional weapon he... hits his one target a bit harder.  That's pretty much it.

 

"Their hearts grew bold" does the exact same thing on a level 1 nubby bar singer than on a fully geared level 12 voice-from-the-deeps, with the exception that maxxing int makes it last a bit longer.  That just isn't enough compared to other classes.

 

Even the chanter abilities don't improve the chants nor the invocations very much.

 

EDIT:  I'm actually a fan of the fact that your're forced to choose between "low-level chants but high level invocations" and "Powerful Chants but infrequent invocations".  I think that's a beautiful design decision that's marred by implementation issues... so I'm not a fan of any "solution" that just makes one of those more viable at the expense of the other.

 

Also remember that the low-maintainance nature of the class can be turned into an advantage:  You wouldn't want your barbarian reciting scrolls, because he needs to be hitting things already.  But Paladins and Chanters?  They should be reciting scrolls when you need them to.  Kind Wayfarers even covert scroll kills into healing.

 

Maybe that's where improvements could be focused, but I'm sure I can't of a way to do so.

 

Its not a beautiful design decision.  I know some people will say that is a matter of opinion but its not.  It would be OK if it was static, for example it had 3 tiers and these tiers were INDEPENDENT of level.  And those tiers were available from level one.  Maybe use them as an adjustment on invocations and chants, where these have no inherent tier and you actively assign the tier on them.

 

But when its dependent on level its inherently a poor design because encounter duration must necessary have a finite length and in general is most likely fairly invariant.  At level 6 invocations/chants the numbers are completely ridiculous and impractical.  Its just obvious a poor design since it becomes literally useless and unusable.

 

Perhaps the basic idea behind (which is not "design") is fine, but since its something that essentially is tied to something that is invariant (or at least varies within a constrained range) then the design must also be this way and its not.  This is the crux of the design flaw.

[MadDemiurg]

Imo the the original design intention was:

• To keep lower level chants relevant at higher levels
• To make lower level invocations competitive with higher level invocations

Which kinda makes sense. However the way it was implemented caused a lot of issues outlined above. Basically, invocations have some sort of "reverse scaling" as they become more and more difficult to cast at higher levels, unlike all other casters who can actually use more of their abilities (ciphers by increasing damage they deal and other casters by getting more/per encounter spells).

 

What can be done to fix the situation while satisfying the two items above?

 

Well, first of all i think the following rule should be taken as a basis:

 

At any given character level, the highest level invocation available should take the same fixed time to charge using the same method.

 

Meaning that if at level 1 level 1 invocation takes 12 seconds to charge with level 1 chants then at level 12 a level 3 invocation should take the same 12 seconds to charge.

 

Battles do not become longer at higher levels and this fixes the main flaw of scaling imo.

 

To satisfy item #2 then, low level invocations should actually become FASTER to charge with level instead.

 

How to: at levels 5 and 9 chanters gain +1 to phrase counter per phrase chanted.

 

1st level invocations still take 3 phrases to cast. Cost of level 2 invocations goes up to 6 phrases and level 3 to 9 phrases.

 

The choice between higher level invocations and higher level chants is also a bit controversial since you basically have to chose one or the other, but is more balance related (if both are extremely powerful one or the other is ok, if not that fun), I do think however that progression can be tuned down a bit at least (+1 sec to chant duration instead of +2 per level). Alternatively, to keep lower level chants viable without forcing the player to chose linger duration can be improved with level for the lower level chants. Basically any top level chant has 4 sec duration and 0 linger (only 1 active). For each level before current max the chant receives +2 sec to linger duration.

 

Any of these changes would be a huge buff to the chanters however, and require rebalancing of invocations and chants. In particular, summon invocations, as lower level ones will become incredibly spammable. My suggestion would be to either make all summons 1/encounter, add cooldown to summon invocations or even add a global cooldown on all invocations after any has been used (this will hurt low level invocations however as they will force more cooldowns, so I'm more inclined towards individual cooldowns on invocations).

[cctobias]

It would probably be best to boil down the flaws in the current design to as simple and elegant a statement as possible.  I would the two following statements are the main issues (keeping in mind other design intentions maybe desireable to keep):

 

1) the length of chants and invocations cannot possibly scale in a practical sense when compared to encounter length

 

2) Invocations/chants scale both negatively and positively and other classes do not.  This means that a higher level chant is both more powerful and take more of a non-increasing resource to cast.  All other spell casters either a) have no special cost for more powerful spell or b) recieve more resource to balance out the higher cost

 

These are two different issues although #1 does currently impact #2.  When taken in conjunction they make the current design obviously completely out of whack when compared to wizard/druid/priest spells.

 

#1 is a problem that is a basic flaw that has no upside at all.  Its just flat out bad.

 

#2 is something some people like in that it can, from some points of view, be an interesting trade off.  However since #2 is dependent on #1 this gets a little hard to discuss.

 

Therefore #1 must be tackled first.  #2 could be solved via blaancing powers OR by a slightly different design.  But you cannot consider balance on #2 until #1 is solved and #1 is flat out bad and must be solved. 

Edited June 3, 2015 by cctobias

[Sabotin]

I think the problem lies not with the class, but the rest of the game. If the combat would be slowed down and relied less on the opening damage...

 

I really like the idea that the class builds up and has some strong offensive abilities that turn the tide later in the fight. In theory this would make more defensive party setups competitive with the "best defense is a good offense" kind,

[tinysalamander]

(Another random idea)

 

Maybe phrases should be somewhat more stackable, as in you get to play more than one at the same time. Say,

 

Turn* 1. Phrase 1 starts at full power.
Turn 2. Phrase 2 starts at full power, Phrase 1 is weakened but present.
Turn 3. Phrase 3 starts at full power, Phrase 2 is weakened but present, Phrase 1 is weak.
Turn 4. Phrase 4 starts at full power, Phrase 3 is weakened but present, Phrase 2 is weak, Phrase 1 ends.

 

* Turn is whatever amount of seconds seems appropriate, independent of other actions.

 

Or, alternatively, it starts weaker but becomes stronger each turn, but there is already a problem with fight duration and chants, so maybe not…

[HoopleDoople]

Imo the the original design intention was:

• To keep lower level chants relevant at higher levels
• To make lower level invocations competitive with higher level invocations

Which kinda makes sense. However the way it was implemented caused a lot of issues outlined above. Basically, invocations have some sort of "reverse scaling" as they become more and more difficult to cast at higher levels, unlike all other casters who can actually use more of their abilities (ciphers by increasing damage they deal and other casters by getting more/per encounter spells).

 

What can be done to fix the situation while satisfying the two items above?

 

Well, first of all i think the following rule should be taken as a basis:

 

At any given character level, the highest level invocation available should take the same fixed time to charge using the same method.

 

Meaning that if at level 1 level 1 invocation takes 12 seconds to charge with level 1 chants then at level 12 a level 3 invocation should take the same 12 seconds to charge.

 

Battles do not become longer at higher levels and this fixes the main flaw of scaling imo.

 

To satisfy item #2 then, low level invocations should actually become FASTER to charge with level instead.

 

How to: at levels 5 and 9 chanters gain +1 to phrase counter per phrase chanted.

 

1st level invocations still take 3 phrases to cast. Cost of level 2 invocations goes up to 6 phrases and level 3 to 9 phrases.

 

The choice between higher level invocations and higher level chants is also a bit controversial since you basically have to chose one or the other, but is more balance related (if both are extremely powerful one or the other is ok, if not that fun), I do think however that progression can be tuned down a bit at least (+1 sec to chant duration instead of +2 per level). Alternatively, to keep lower level chants viable without forcing the player to chose linger duration can be improved with level for the lower level chants. Basically any top level chant has 4 sec duration and 0 linger (only 1 active). For each level before current max the chant receives +2 sec to linger duration.

 

Any of these changes would be a huge buff to the chanters however, and require rebalancing of invocations and chants. In particular, summon invocations, as lower level ones will become incredibly spammable. My suggestion would be to either make all summons 1/encounter, add cooldown to summon invocations or even add a global cooldown on all invocations after any has been used (this will hurt low level invocations however as they will force more cooldowns, so I'm more inclined towards individual cooldowns on invocations).

 

You're definitely on the right track. I did notice that at level 5 Chanters receiving 2 phrases per chant would need 2 chants for either a level 1 or level 2 invocation, which is probably not ideal.

 

Thus I prefer my earlier "option 1" suggestion. In retrospect it would be better to frame it as Chanters having their invocation cost reduced by 1 phrase at level 5 and by 2 phrases at level 9. This ensures that each subsequent invocation level always takes longer to reach.

 

Where the idea needed expanded on, as you pointed out, is that it would make low level invocations way too spammable. While nerfs are likely still in order, I think we can avoid anything too drastic by making one simple tweak to our invocation cost. The reduced phrases per invocation would only apply to the first invocation of each battle. Thus a high level Chanter could opt to use a level 1 invocation after only one phrase, but then he'd need at least 3 additional phrases for his next invocation. This would both provide a tactical choice to the Chanter (get a little help earlier or wait a bit longer for a much more powerful ability) and prevent invocation spamming.

 

If we're willing to accept a little more complexity in mechanics in order to account for really long battles, we could have the phrase reduction merely be on cooldown for a set period of time (30 seconds?).

[Zwiebelchen]

I like the rule proposed in one of these posts and I think that should be the general idea behind all rebalancing propositions:

 

Casting the highest level invocation at max level should take exactly as much time as casting the lowest level invocation at level 1, as average encounter length does not scale with level.

 

This is the underlying problem that we are trying to fix. And this should imho be adressed in all suggestions.

 

 

Suggestions for achieving that design philosophy have been plenty already. I'll try to list those that I feel would be most effective in solving the problem with minimal coding involved:

 

A) Have chanters start with a fixed amount of chant stacks depending on level:

Level 1: 0 stacks

Level 5: 1 stack

Level 9: 2 stacks

Result: Fixes the initial premise, however, does not adress the problem that you can build up stacks faster with low level chants.

 

B) Have chanters gain more chant stacks depending on the chant level:

Level 1 chant: 1 stacks

Level 2 chant: 2 stacks

Level 3 chant: 3 stacks

Result: Fixes the initial premise, however, would result in a bias in favor for higher level chants, as they get more stacks/second.

 

C) Decrease Invocation costs with level:

Level 1: level 1 invocation: 3

Level 5: level 1 invocation: 2 - level 2 invocation: 3

Level 9: level 1 invocation: 1 - level 2 invocation: 2 - level 3 invocation: 3

Result: Fixes the initial premise, however, doesn't solve the problem that low level chants build up stacks faster.

 

1) Shift the duration of chants with progressing level more towards linger time:

Level 1: first level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration

Level 5: first level chants: 3 duration, 5 linger duration - second level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Level 9: first level chants: 2 duration, 6 linger duration - second level chants: 3 duration, 5 linger duration - third level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Result: Elegantly fixes the problem that higher level chants have a longer duration, without making lower level chants insignificant. However, would allow building up stacks insanely fast by using only first level chant. Also, doesn't allow extending the system beyond level 12 in future expansions.

 

2) Normalize all chant durations and invocation costs, but increase linger duration of lower level chants with progressing level:

Level 1: first level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration

Level 5: first level chants: 4 duration, 6 linger duration - second level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Level 9: first level chants: 4 duration, 8 linger duration - second level chants: 4 duration, 6 linger duration - third level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Result: Elegantly fixes the problem that higher level chants have a longer duration, without making lower level chants insignificant. Adresses the problem of building up stacks insanely fast by using only first level chants. Allows extending the system beyond level 12 in future expansions. However, no more incentive in using lower level Invocations.

 

 

A) and 2) combined would imho be most effective.

A) and 1) combined also work good together, but cause issues that you are able to use level 1 invocations almost instantly and gain chant stacks extremely fast with level 1 chants.

B) would be a standalone solution, which however would greatly devalue lower level chants.

C) and 1) would be insanely OP and probably a terrible solution.

 

C) and 2) however seems to have no obvious drawbacks and looks like the idea solution to me. You could say that a 1 phrase cost first level invocation might be OP, but due to the fact that you can't have more than one summon anyway and that most non-summon invocations are pretty terrible, I think this is fine.

Edited June 4, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[MadDemiurg]

You're definitely on the right track. I did notice that at level 5 Chanters receiving 2 phrases per chant would need 2 chants for either a level 1 or level 2 invocation, which is probably not ideal.

 

Thus I prefer my earlier "option 1" suggestion. In retrospect it would be better to frame it as Chanters having their invocation cost reduced by 1 phrase at level 5 and by 2 phrases at level 9. This ensures that each subsequent invocation level always takes longer to reach.

 

Where the idea needed expanded on, as you pointed out, is that it would make low level invocations way too spammable. While nerfs are likely still in order, I think we can avoid anything too drastic by making one simple tweak to our invocation cost. The reduced phrases per invocation would only apply to the first invocation of each battle. Thus a high level Chanter could opt to use a level 1 invocation after only one phrase, but then he'd need at least 3 additional phrases for his next invocation. This would both provide a tactical choice to the Chanter (get a little help earlier or wait a bit longer for a much more powerful ability) and prevent invocation spamming.

 

If we're willing to accept a little more complexity in mechanics in order to account for really long battles, we could have the phrase reduction merely be on cooldown for a set period of time (30 seconds?).

 

Well, using level 1 invocation at level 5 with my suggestion leaves 1 spare point that can be used later, but I agree that it's not ideal. Adding starting points to the counter only fixes the problem when the battle doesn't last for more than one invocation, although that's often the case. Adding some "cost reduction" ability on a timer seems unnecessarily complicated.

 

I like the rule proposed in one of these posts and I think that should be the general idea behind all rebalancing propositions:

 

Casting the highest level invocation at max level should take exactly as much time as casting the lowest level invocation at level 1, as average encounter length does not scale with level.

 

This is the underlying problem that we are trying to fix. And this should imho be adressed in all suggestions.

 

 

Suggestions for achieving that design philosophy have been plenty already. I'll try to list those that I feel would be most effective in solving the problem with minimal coding involved:

 

A) Have chanters start with a fixed amount of chant stacks depending on level:

Level 1: 0 stacks

Level 5: 1 stack

Level 9: 2 stacks

Result: Fixes the initial premise, however, does not adress the problem that you can build up stacks faster with low level chants.

 

B) Have chanters gain more chant stacks depending on the chant level:

Level 1 chant: 1 stacks

Level 2 chant: 2 stacks

Level 3 chant: 3 stacks

Result: Fixes the initial premise, however, would result in a bias in favor for higher level chants, as they get more stacks/second.

 

C) Decrease Invocation costs with level:

Level 1: level 1 invocation: 3

Level 5: level 1 invocation: 2 - level 2 invocation: 3

Level 9: level 1 invocation: 1 - level 2 invocation: 2 - level 3 invocation: 3

Result: Fixes the initial premise, however, doesn't solve the problem that low level chants build up stacks faster.

 

1) Shift the duration of chants with progressing level more towards linger time:

Level 1: first level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration

Level 5: first level chants: 3 duration, 5 linger duration - second level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Level 9: first level chants: 2 duration, 6 linger duration - second level chants: 3 duration, 5 linger duration - third level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Result: Elegantly fixes the problem that higher level chants have a longer duration, without making lower level chants insignificant. However, would allow building up stacks insanely fast by using only first level chant. Also, doesn't allow extending the system beyond level 12 in future expansions.

 

2) Normalize all chant durations and invocation costs, but increase linger duration of lower level chants with progressing level:

Level 1: first level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration

Level 5: first level chants: 4 duration, 6 linger duration - second level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Level 9: first level chants: 4 duration, 8 linger duration - second level chants: 4 duration, 6 linger duration - third level chants: 4 duration, 4 linger duration.

Result: Elegantly fixes the problem that higher level chants have a longer duration, without making lower level chants insignificant. Adresses the problem of building up stacks insanely fast by using only first level chants. Allows extending the system beyond level 12 in future expansions. However, no more incentive in using lower level Invocations.

 

 

A) and 2) combined would imho be most effective.

A) and 1) combined also work good together, but cause issues that you are able to use level 1 invocations almost instantly and gain chant stacks extremely fast with level 1 chants.

B) would be a standalone solution, which however would greatly devalue lower level chants.

C) and 1) would be insanely OP and probably a terrible solution.

 

C) and 2) however seems to have no obvious drawbacks and looks like the idea solution to me. You could say that a 1 phrase cost first level invocation might be OP, but due to the fact that you can't have more than one summon anyway and that most non-summon invocations are pretty terrible, I think this is fine.

C and 2) indeed look the best out of your suggestions, however I'm more inclined towards increasing phrase counter gain rather than reducing invocation costs, since if level 1 invocation costs 1 point it doesn't leave any room for reducing costs when hypothetical level 4+ invocations are available. I don't agree that it's not OP without changes to the invocations though. Being able to respawn even a weak summon every 4 sec gives too many free meatshields and CC invocations like aoe stun remain relevant even at high levels, so lower level ones will need a duration nerf.

[Dinky Dino]

Loving a lot of these suggestions. Wonder if Obsidian ever considers it in need of a rebalance in general.

[MalVeauX]

Heya,

 

Or, instead of revamping stuff, simply make the battles longer via either more enemies or more difficult enemies. Then everything works as designed and as it is currently.

Just kidding.

 

Having played 3 Chanters now, I find them to be effective, but obviously they're flawed under a micro-scope from a number crunching point of view. I think a lot of the phrases would be far more interesting and appealing if they scaled with level in some way. Right now, some of them are down-right unappealing at all, let alone too minimal of an effect to matter or be interesting. There are a few that are very good, to ok. For example, why would anyone choose the endurance draining phrase at any level? It's so minimal and doesn't scale, and it's totally insignificant. But, if it could scale (and stack), it would actually become interesting possibly (especially a large radius, higher draining effect via a specific talent for mid/late game).

 

Some of the invocations are powerful and useful early and late game. Phantoms for example. Paralyzing cones of course. Others are totally wimpy late game, like Skeletons (why do they not scale and become... better skeletons, late game?).

 

I think some more specific talents, like focus chant based talents to specifically craft a chanter to be able to go with faster, shorter lower level phrases and quicker invocations; or slower longer more potent phrases and less invocations, would be interesting.

 

Very best,

[Uni]

Talent(s) available on later levels to shorten the initial time of a chant could help in many ways. Also shortening the linger is an option but chanters being able to have more concurrent song layers in late game sounds reasonable.

I think its good to keep higher level chants and invocations slower so that the lower level ones wouldnt be totally pointless, but current high level chants with high level invocations are way too sluggish. With faster chants on high level the chanters could cast high level chants and invocations in reasonable time(like they do with low level ones on early game), or layer multiple low level chants and cast low level invocations in quite rapid fashion, kind of like how high level casters also get to use their whole spell arsenal a lot more than low level ones.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Uni

[evilcat]

Making chanters start with initial number of stacks will kill the idea of class. ;-(

Making high level phrases give more stacks would make low level pointless. ;-(

All invocations costing same will make low level summons less valuable. ;-(

 

So there is no easy answear.

 

Things which will change situacion (not saying improve):

- Add talent/ability which increase duracion of lingering effect. That would not help with stack building but will make easier to keep 3 phrases active, and thats buff for Chanters anyway.

- Modify Constitucion to 5% per point bonus, which would mae fights a bit longer. Which is good idea anyway considering planed perception change.

- Add abilitty "Encore". 3/rest. After casting invocation you can tap Encore to regain stacks instantly.

- Add ability "Trance (passive): As long as Chanter is singing (or under influence of own song) receives bonus +5 to dmg reduction". Which would improve Chanter ability to be front fighter. Again nothing connceted with stack building, but buffs chanters and make them more on pair with fighters.

- Or abillity "Wardance (passive, kindoff): After casting any Invocation Chanter receives bonus to accuracy and dmg for short period."

 

Chanter has this issue that have no class abillities as other classes do. So they can;t get much better since there is no feat to pick. ;-(

Edited August 4, 2015 by evilcat

[jsaving]

I agree with those who say the current mechanic -- in which chanters aren't generally able to use high level invocations unless they counterintuitively run/cower from enemies until enough time has passed -- isn't working.  But I don't agree that the solution is to let every chanter access higher level invocations more quickly regardless of the actions they take during combat.  Rather, chanters need to be able to access higher level invocations faster if they earn it by helping the party .  Given that the chanter's main claim to fame is the automatic buffs he doles out to party members, this could perhaps be based on the amount of damage party members inflict on enemies while under the influence of the chanter's buffs -- a thematically similar though less selfish extension of the way ciphers earn focus through greater personal melee/missle damage on enemies.