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luzarius

Shouldn't all spells be per combat encounter? Not per rest?

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Yeah Vancian magic was always a pretty crap holdover from D&D. There's a reason that it's the only pnp game that currently uses vancian magic.

 

Rest and recuperate magic applies to plenty of systems, including any number of MP based system. Generally resting in RPGs has been balanced by supply cost (Tents in final fantasy, rations in some ultimas, etc.), and the risk of dealing with random encounters during rest, or worse, while backtracking to an area where you were allowed to rest.

 

Anyway, PoE magic isn't even properly vancian, given that no class actually prepares specific spells in advance -- even wizards just prepare a shortlist.

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Vancian magic is awesome. Those who dislike it are not real RPGers. PERIOD.


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Does this game really need to be made easier? Really?

 

Easier?  Being able to leave an area at any time and rest at the inn for free is what causes the game to be too easy.

 

I've invoked Scrotie's ruleset and my gameplay has been enhanced tenfold.

Edited by luzarius

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^great, and everybody has that option.

Personally, I've never even considered going back to an inn after every fight - that'd be boring and nuts.

I've also found myself making actual choices about whether to use up a camping supply or struggle on through the next fight (rather than rest spam).  I think the camping supplies and limited spells do their job just fine.  The fact that there's a workaround for people who can't manage the limitations is also ok - play the game according to your ability and interest.

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Some people will always rest spam no matter what you do, the game should not make rest spamming the go-to mechanic in that case. If somebody can't manage to clear dungeons without running back to town then let him, I'll continue to enjoy the challenge of clearing dungeons in one go.

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When doing Eothas temple at 3rd level with just 3 characters my rule was going forward as long as possible until someone gets maimed.

 

Then go back to the inn. And why not, it is not like I'm in wildness to need "camping" supplies?


Spell Fixes compilation for Neverwinter Nights 2, as well as my other submissions for this great game.

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Again, I'd find that an interesting challenge. I think you'd get ten times the number of current camping complainers coming in to go MY ONLY SAVES ARE AUTOSAVE & QUICKSAVE IN CAED NUA AND I CANT GET OUT THIS GAME SUCKS. 

 

You can't go back from Sun in Shadow, yet there is an AUTO-SAVE labeled "PRE-ENDGAME". I don't see why the same method can't be used for other areas.

 

I've been thinking about time-based quests, but scrotiemcb's idea is even better.

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Yes, all spells should be per encounter instead of per rest.

 

Spellcasters auto-attacking with ranged weapons 90% of the time is boring. PoE at least allows them to use weapons other than slings (a welcome change from the IE games), but the core problem remains.

 

Combat is more-or-less: Set positions, focus fire, auto-attack, focus fire, auto-attack, etc. Cast spell only if overwhelmed or if an enemy has a powerful ability that must be countered. Same thing, over and over, every time, against trash mob after trash mob.

 

Per encounter abilities and the per encounter spells gained at Lv9 and Lv11 are the only things making combat even mildly interesting right now.

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Yes, all spells should be per encounter instead of per rest.

Spellcasters auto-attacking with ranged weapons 90% of the time is boring. PoE at least allows them to use weapons other than slings (a welcome change from the IE games), but the core problem remains.

Combat is more-or-less: Set positions, focus fire, auto-attack, focus fire, auto-attack, etc. Cast spell only if overwhelmed or if an enemy has a powerful ability that must be countered. Same thing, over and over, every time, against trash mob after trash mob.

Per encounter abilities and the per encounter spells gained at Lv9 and Lv11 are the only things making combat even mildly interesting right now.

I really couldn't disagree more. Just because an ability is "per rest" doesn't mean you can't ever throw it out there. If you are having spells left over when you rest, chances are you are being too conservative with them.
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If you have to rest after every encounter, you aren't playing cipher right.

 

 

There, fixed. Cipher is game's easy mode. If you can't rofl-stomp every battle with him, you don't understand the game. 


"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit."

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"Keep in mind I play on POTD, TOI, blind playthrough, so I usually don't hold back when fighting. I approach each fight with overwhelming force to ensure victory.  The problem is having to constantly use all the camping supplies or having to constantly go back to the inn and rest."

 

=> "I play in a way that is extremely wasteful of the limited resources that I am given. This creates some frustrations. I think the game should be fixed so that my decision to ignore the strategic decisions presented by the game becomes reasonable."

 

This, ladies and gentlemen, is a post by a moderator. Keeping it classy and setting the high bar for the rest of us to follow. 

 

Alas, I fear I can't summon forth an inner douchbag which quite matches that response, but it's nice to know where the moderators of the forum stand. Basically RPGCodex level infantile responses.

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Yeah. Learning strategic resource management is a big part of learning the game.

Then it's a good thing we all wanted to play an rts.

 

 

"Keep in mind I play on POTD, TOI, blind playthrough, so I usually don't hold back when fighting. I approach each fight with overwhelming force to ensure victory.  The problem is having to constantly use all the camping supplies or having to constantly go back to the inn and rest."

 

=> "I play in a way that is extremely wasteful of the limited resources that I am given. This creates some frustrations. I think the game should be fixed so that my decision to ignore the strategic decisions presented by the game becomes reasonable."

 

This, ladies and gentlemen, is a post by a moderator. Keeping it classy and setting the high bar for the rest of us to follow. 

 

Alas, I fear I can't summon forth an inner douchbag which quite matches that response, but it's nice to know where the moderators of the forum stand. Basically RPGCodex level infantile responses.

 

Oh, no, this is above the usual level, since it's an attempt to be both witty and since it is in a specific sense also is internally consistent.

 

But being unaware of the context of your own argument, and arguing for allegedly minor details "everybody" wants to be implemented, while pretending this has no implications for anything else. When it in reality changes the entire ruleset from the bottom up. That is the normal mode around here, and incidentally also how PoE became a game that forces everyone to play the game, from second to second, exactly like a vast majority of 5 specific people on the forums played BG2.


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Yeah. Learning strategic resource management is a big part of learning the game.

Then it's a good thing we all wanted to play an rts.

 

I don't see any argument that could be made for PoE being more of an RTS than the IE games, but I'm willing to listen.

 

Unless, of course, you're saying that the reason you didn't have to learn resource management in the IE games is because of the wonderful rest-spamming option? Listen, if you need that level of non-challenge in IE games, it's available. If you need that level of non-challenge in PoE, it's available here too, it's called Easy mode. In easy mode you can spam those spells and there are less enemies to deal with, so those same spells will end fights quicker. Then you can rest after every couple of fights because there is really no shortage of camping supplies in this game. How many does the game let you carry on easy, is it four? That really should be plenty, four rests between town maps with inns and the possibility to just go to an inn any time and sleep and restock your camping supplies... what's the issue exactly?


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I honestly do wonder whether there is a factor wherein people want to play on the higher/highest levels of difficulty as a matter of pride, but are not perhaps really willing to adjust their stratagies to actually play at that level. I think there is almost certainly an element of that, generally, as a fundemental flaw in having difficulty modes - and unavoidable one, of course, since the only alternative is only to have a single difficulty level. But I do wonder if a few people do try to play above the difficultly level they would really be comfortable playing, in practise, just because they don't like what that that difficulty level is called or it isn't the highest one. I'm sure that there will be people that do this, but what I do not know is how widespread it is.

 

 

 

I should note that I say this as someone who probably plays far too much to be considered a Filthy Casual (sic), but who in general sticks to the bottom-end of difficulty levels and rarely rises above normal (as with PoE) - I don't play games for the "challenge" as i know many people do, but merely to be Make Something or be told a story of some form complete with some pretty explosions, when you get down to it. (My games are basically exclusively single-player and RPGs/RTS (campaign mode only, generally), 4X and city-builders.) I have no pride in my gaming skills; they are what they are!

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So why not turn on god mode and not bother about combat difficulty? That way you have pretty explosions + story. Problem = Solved? 


"The essence of balance is detachment. To embrace a cause, to grow fond or spiteful, is to lose one's balance, after which, no action can be trusted. Our burden is not for the dependent of spirit."

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Unless, of course, you're saying that the reason you didn't have to learn resource management in the IE games is because of the wonderful rest-spamming option? Listen, if you need that level of non-challenge in IE games, it's available. If you need that level of non-challenge in PoE, it's available here too, it's called Easy mode. In easy mode you can spam those spells and there are less enemies to deal with, so those same spells will end fights quicker. Then you can rest after every couple of fights because there is really no shortage of camping supplies in this game. How many does the game let you carry on easy, is it four? That really should be plenty, four rests between town maps with inns and the possibility to just go to an inn any time and sleep and restock your camping supplies... what's the issue exactly?

 

It takes the same mental effort of pushing boxes, one at a time, from one end of the floor to the other. It's boring and pointless. I don't want to do this for entertainment.

 

So why not turn on god mode and not bother about combat difficulty? That way you have pretty explosions + story. Problem = Solved? 

 

Mhm. That's what the game plays like. Increasing the difficulty simply extends the waiting time and extra trips back and forth. The challenge lies in how long you can stand repeating the same task over and over.

 

Other than that, I'm just going to note that - as always - we've had two diametrically opposite solutions to the "problem" here, the first as extreme as the next one. The first insists that there should in effect be no difficulty of any kind. Which makes sense, when the difficulty simply doesn't make you think about the usage of spells and abilities, but of camping supplies. Why would anyone want that (other than whoever decides these things at Obsidian)?

 

The second insists that the difficulty in navigating artificial obstacles on the way to the next set of dialogue should be a grueling trial by very, very slow burning fire.

 

While a compromise between the two manage the best of the two options: a linear game that isn't challenging in any way, even though it is still grueling in it's infinite exploration of boredom.

 

And you're arguing between these two opposites as if getting either one of them is a good idea. And that no other approach works. 

 

I have to admit, it is still fascinating to watch this stuff.


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All spells and abilities should be on cooldowns, like D3. Some offering a faster recovery than others. :yes:


image,Gfted1,black,red.png

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For people who don't like resting limitations, or resource management, there's always Easy mode. I don't know what's the limit there, but it's 4 on Normal. You experience the same story, same music, companions, quests and areas. You either enjoy combat and play on higher settings, or turn it down. Lower resting limits is part of the difficulty.

 

I wish the game tracked how many times players rested over the course of a campaign. Ideally a list.

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I think it does in a fashion. Isnt there some achievement for not resting more than times? But it probably doesnt tell you the total amount of times you have rested.


image,Gfted1,black,red.png

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All spells and abilities should be on cooldowns, like D3. Some offering a faster recovery than others. :yes:

And I could add that although it may not seem that way, at all - in actual reality, Gft1ed is in fact making that statement with an acute and total awareness of the narrative flow in a dungeon, intricate knowledge of how this would affect the mechanics in the game on every level, and also in fact knowledge of what all people who want to play the game really wants.

 

Unbelievers and apostates may perhaps feel the need to ask: "But Gifted1 - how dost thou know these wondrous things about how all things fit together?". But it is not necessary to question, because he simply knows such things.


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