RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

[Mlatimudan]

Ever since Obsidian brought back the fallout franchise from the dead I have been convinced that they are the best thing since sliced bread, I won't deny that.

 

Even so there are flaws in every game they put out just like there are flaws in everything except mutt dogs with one upright and one floppy ear(those guys are the best)

 

But I think that with some constructive criticism and with some time to make expansions, poe2 and hopefully some other games(something from white wolf perhaps) they are truly the guys to make games that I like.(hopefully other people will too but I'm looking out for numero uno )

 

the review from the codex is really annoying to me because it makes no effort to point out one good aspect of the game, or even a way to remedy the perceived flaws like a lot of people during the beta and **** me no matter who you are you can find something nice to say as long as it isn't about the star wars prequels.

 

The game could use some improvements, well what game couldn't benefit from improvements, lets not pretend the game is a bag of **** because it has some flaws and attempts to have some personality within its genre ( semi historic weapons, engagement, everyone in plate etc)

[Bill Gates' Son]

 

 

So guys... Before the game was released there were alot of **** talking. The general consensus were however, that the common goal was to improve the game. It's sad to see now, that the discussion is reduced to this. Any worthwhile constructive argument about the future of PoE is quickly shot down.

And it's sad to read Sensukis posts on the codex aswell. To watch him starting this thread, only to coward out, when Matt is confronting him. Then to go post a link on the codex about this thread, only to promote his wish to belong to their group of self important wankers and ridicule the how the peasents here doesn't agree with them.

I actually believed he wanted to work for the betterment of PoE, but he showed his true colors now.

So sad.

Sounds like the one who's **** talking is you. I didn't know this was about Sensuki? How about discuss things like the review instead of **** talking other people.

Yeah, I have nothing but respect for Sensuki despite our differences in opinion on this matter. I couldn't name a single person on this forum who has (to my knowledge) put in a fraction of the time Sensuki has on making the game better. Literally hundreds and hundreds of bug reports during the Beta.

 

I thought the review was pretty terrible when I made that original post and I still do. But Sensuki has every right to think otherwise, and that doesn't make him a "coward". He doesn't like PoE. That's fine. I wish he did, mostly for his sake since he's put so much time into the game - but he doesn't and that's his right.

 

 

I'm sick of this excuse.  Just because he put a lot of time into the beta doesn't mean he has to go around acting like a ****.  He clearly made this topic for trolling purposes considering he hates the game AND he posted this link to this thread in the RPGcodex thread just to show how butthurt some of the fan are here.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Bill Gates' Son

[Luckmann]

Can we get back to the actual topic.

Hŵrpa Dwrp.

[TheisEjsing]

I'm not the least butthurt, but I'm abit sad that it turned out this way. Besides, I haven't called Sensuki any "****" words at all. I have said many times, that I had alot of respect for all the hard work Sensuki poured into the game, but that doesn't change what goes on now. 
 

And that jab about small minds. I love that from a guy who never gets personal. ^_^
 

You're a waste of space and time.

[Raz415]

Pretty clear that it's a bash article, and bashing done with enthusiasm. I am seriously bored of people bashing on things for views, but that's "press" nowadays I guess. Unfortunately, he also did his homework and basically everything in the review about ****ty combat is kind of true. His comments on character creation could have been even worse if he figured out that you can MIN Perception on all your characters and you only get benefits from it. It sucks that it came out before patch 1.05 which is supposed to balance things. I wish Obsidian got at least this chance to make it right.

 

Also,

 

As a final note in this chapter, let’s talk about reactivity. I already talked about the lack of any consequences for quests, but there is still something I want to address. Nobody in the world of PoE gives a **** about anything. You can go on a rampage and slaughter people in broad daylight, kill a clan warlord and his retinue or genocide entire sects of druids in the middle of their city and nobody does even as much as blink. How did we go from Alpha Protocol to this? It is doubly bizarre because Obsidian even put in a whole system tracking the player’s reputation and demeanour. Most dialogue options you pick have a mood associated with them (aggressive, stoic, rational, etc), and every now and again you’ll find NPCs reacting to them if your score is big enough. Sometimes it can even alter quests in a minor way or scare a combat encounter away. The system has its issues because the reputations aren’t mutually exclusive, so you can be known as cruel, benevolent, honest and deceptive at the same time, plus many of their dialogue lines aren’t very well-written (all you do as a [stoic] person is nod at everything), but at least it’s something, a good idea. And it’s simply another element in PoE that is disappointingly underused.

 

In all honesty, developers should read this article and decide what changes they want to do for the future. It could be a good thing, if it was a learning experience.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Raz415

[Kimuji]

The review was brought back here just for the OP to tell everyone "See, see I told you, I was right and I found one review that says so".

 

On the review itself, while it raises some valid points they are all presented in such exaggerated and completely biased way that it looks like one of these terrible movie critics: the actual point isn't to discuss the movie/game but an attempt from the author to look smart and build up his reputation. Many of the all time classics share the exact same flaws, which are for many of them a trademark of the crpg genre, but oddly enough in the case of PoE they become unforgivable failures... The entire review isn't about the game but about someone who's trying to show everyone how smarter than the masses he is (and drain some clicks on the codex banner...).

 

I've read several reviews raising the same points as this one, except they didn't conclude that the game was trash material. Yes the game has flaws, but that doesn't make it a terrible nor mediocre one.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Kimuji

[Luckmann]

I'm not the least butthurt, but I'm abit sad that it turned out this way. Besides, I haven't called Sensuki any "****" words at all. I have said many times, that I had alot of respect for all the hard work Sensuki poured into the game, but that doesn't change what goes on now. 

 

And that jab about small minds. I love that from a guy who never gets personal. ^_^

 

 

 

You're a waste of space and time.

 

 

There's a difference; I never said that anyone has a duty to inform someone that they're being counterproductive, or ever set some lofty goal relating to productiveness. I was pointing out the issue with talking about such, while also doing the least productive thing anyone can do.

 

Also, I never talked about Gromnir, I talked to Gromnir, and his recently all the more common tendency to add nothing, never engage, never discuss, deflect and evade, and put up strawmen. And when called out on it, ridicule.

 

The fact that you felt the need to pull me into this thing, whatever it is, indicates that you're at least a little bit butthurt over something.

 

The review was brought back here just for the OP to tell everyone "See, see I told you, I was right and I found one review that says so".

 

On the review itself, while it raises some valid points they are all presented in such exaggerated and completely biased way that it looks like one of these terrible movie critics: the actual point isn't to discuss the movie/game but an attempt from the author to look smart and build up his reputation. Many of the all time classics share the exact same flaws, which are for many of them a trademark of the crpg genre, but oddly enough in the case of PoE they become unforgivable failures... The entire review isn't about the game but about someone who's trying to show everyone how smarter than the masses he is (and drain some clicks on the codex banner...).

 

I've read several reviews raising the same point as this one, except they didn't conclude that the game was trash material. Yes the game has flaws, but that doesn't make it a terrible nor mediocre one.

No, it was posted here because it was an RPGCodex review. The fact that Sensuki posted it doesn't matter, and I'm convinced that he does not feel the need to use this to show that he was right or wrong. Sensuki is also a member of the RPGCodex, so it makes perfect sense. He even mentions that he doesn't agree with all of it. In fact, his criticism appears to be largely the same as yours, as it was for most people in the thread - many of the points in the review were valid, but the reasoning was often flawed, and certainly blown out of proportions.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Luckmann

[TheisEjsing]

My post was about the lack of productive debate, and this thread was an example. And I have never claimed that anyone has a duty to inform people about being counterproductive. That wasn't my post. And if your post wasn't the least directed at me, then I apologize, but in context of this thread it did seem that way. And besides, this is Sensukis thread, and I'm adressing something he did related to this thread and I'm doing it here. 

[Ineth]

I haven't called Sensuki any "****" words at all. I have said many times, that I had alot of respect for all the hard work Sensuki poured into the game, but that doesn't change what goes on now.

 

"What goes no now"? How is it 'bad behavior' to make a thread for linking a negative review - just because you don't agree with it?

 

Even though I, too, think that the review is needlessly hyperbolic/antagonistic and lacking in perspective and fairness, it did raise some good points and I'm glad that Sensuki linked it here as I would have otherwise not noticed it (since I'm not on RPG Codex).

 

My post was about the lack of productive debate, and this thread was an example.

 

A productive debate about things like how to improve the 'Graze vs Hit' mechanic was starting here, just before you posted (and derailed it again ).

Edited April 24, 2015 by Ineth

[Stun]

My main problem with this game, however, is that it's low on surprises. If PoE was D&D, it'd be 4th ed. Way, way more balanced than AD&D with many many extra books -- but at the same time a bit boring. It's most evident in magic items and spells (no time stop + gate / imprison or magic blocking capes or gender changing magic items here, lol) but it's not only about mechanics -- everything seems rather tidy and safe even if discussing the quests and encounters. BG2 -- your party members get taken away from you, they turn against you, they matter because things that can happen to them can surprise you. PoE? Once you get them, they'll stay in their compartment and cause you no trouble. Quests have this same problem: oh how I have waited for that moment when I have fought some enemy in their lair and when I'm leaving the place feeling safe I encounter some real trouble that doesn't like what I have done. Thus far no such surprises.

 

But I hope this is just the first episode and many good things are waiting in the future.

Don't know how I missed this post. Yes. That's it exactly. It's low on those "danger", and "surprise" moments. And the problem is not just story based (companions deserting you, cursed items etc.) The safeness extends to the entire game - it's in the rules, and the mechanics, and the encounters.

 

Where are those "holy sh*t" moments for the first time player? Where is "Oh-God-I'm in trouble" feeling you got when you wandered off too far and suddenly found yourself face to face with a Basilisk that insta-killed a member of your party because you weren't expecting it? Where is that "OMG what's happening here!?" feeling when you stumbled on a tomb and suddenly a nasty creature rose from the ground and cast time stop? Where is that moment when you had to go back to the drawing board and try something else because your tried and true set of attacks, that worked on everything else, were suddenly having no effect at all against that enemy. Where is that element of surprise when you're in a battle with a powerful wizard, and you realize you have the upper hand, but then suddenly he casts finger of death, takes out your Cleric, and now the Sh*t is real , just like that?

 

People here wave this stuff away and argue from the viewpoint of a 10th (or 50th) playthrough when they've sufficiently Memorized every split second of the game, and what to do in each instance, thus none of the above occurs. Which is neither fair or valid in this debate. PoE will suffer from the exact same scenario 15 years from now. No I take that back. PoE suffers from this situation already, on a second playthough, due to the fact that everything works on everything and those "holy sh*t" moments were never placed in the game in the first place, because ONE game developer thought that such moments are design mistakes that would only cause people to reload their games. Which for some reason is the Worst Thing Ever!

Edited April 24, 2015 by Stun

[Amentep]

So much psychoanalysis of other posters and their motivations...you'd think this was the Sigmund Freud Fan Forum.

 

At least someone could throw the casual reader a bone - maybe something like how Darth Roxor's review is negative because he hasn't achieved self-actualization on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs or how Gromnir's posting style reflects a specific archetype from the Jungian Collective Unconscious or that Sensuki's crossposting the review was a Pavlovian response created inadvertently due to repeated exposure to the word 'balance' while communicating with Obsidian during the beta.

 

...sheesh...

Edited April 24, 2015 by Amentep

[Dadalama]

So much psychoanalysis of other posters and their motivations...you'd think this was the Sigmund Freud Fan Forum.

 

At least someone could throw the casual reader a bone - maybe something like how Darth Roxor's review is negative because he hasn't achieved self-actualization on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs or how Gromnir's posting style reflects a specific archetype from the Jungian Collective Unconscious or that Sensuki's crossposting the review was a Pavlovian response created inadvertently due to repeated exposure to the word 'balance' while communicating with Obsidian during the beta.

 

...sheesh...

Okay, it's melodrama.

[Luckmann]

My post was about the lack of productive debate, and this thread was an example. And I have never claimed that anyone has a duty to inform people about being counterproductive. That wasn't my post. And if your post wasn't the least directed at me, then I apologize, but in context of this thread it did seem that way. And besides, this is Sensukis thread, and I'm adressing something he did related to this thread and I'm doing it here.

It was directed at the post I quoted. In my post. Like. Sheesh.

 

So much psychoanalysis of other posters and their motivations...you'd think this was the Sigmund Freud Fan Forum.

 

At least someone could throw the casual reader a bone - maybe something like how Darth Roxor's review is negative because he hasn't achieved self-actualization on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs or how Gromnir's posting style reflects a specific archetype from the Jungian Collective Unconscious or that Sensuki's crossposting the review was a Pavlovian response created inadvertently due to repeated exposure to the word 'balance' while communicating with Obsidian during the beta.

 

...sheesh...

Sigmund Freud was a money-grubbing hack and all psychologists that value his works should be dragged into the streets and shot!

 

*ducks and runs*

Edited April 24, 2015 by Luckmann

[IndiraLightfoot]

Amentep: Hehe, yeah. And why not add to that another psycho-analytical aspect, namely that this entire forum, as well as the rpgcodex, to be sure, may be regarded as transitional objects of sorts for those who feel a bit wobbly in their holding environment, as it were?

Edited April 24, 2015 by IndiraLightfoot

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I'm not the least butthurt, .... Besides, I haven't called Sensuki any "****" words at all.

 

 

Oh, you didn't say this then...

 

coward

 

wish to belong to ... self important wankers and ridicule the how the peasents here doesn't agree with them. 

 

showed his true colors now. 

 

 

[perilisk]

 

I haven't called Sensuki any "****" words at all. I have said many times, that I had alot of respect for all the hard work Sensuki poured into the game, but that doesn't change what goes on now.

 

"What goes no now"? How is it 'bad behavior' to make a thread for linking a negative review - just because you don't agree with it?

 

Even though I, too, think that the review is needlessly hyperbolic/antagonistic and lacking in perspective and fairness, it did raise some good points and I'm glad that Sensuki linked it here as I would have otherwise not noticed it (since I'm not on RPG Codex).

 

My post was about the lack of productive debate, and this thread was an example.

 

A productive debate about things like how to improve the 'Graze vs Hit' mechanic was starting here, just before you posted (and derailed it again ).

 

 

I don't know if a mechanic-heavy discussion like that is possible with the... controversial... presentation in the review sucking all the oxygen out of the room. It might be possible if someone were to start a separate thread, extract a de-sensationalized bullet point list of mechanical criticisms from the review without linking to the review itself, and use that as the jumping off point for discussion.

[View619]

This thread was never about having a productive discussion, it's just pointing out that some random people on the Codex do not like the game. Besides amusement, it's not very important.

 

Any decent points made in the review have been made on these forums already, without the ranting.

Edited April 24, 2015 by View619

[TheisEjsing]

Well, you can believe what you want Hiro, it's all good. I liked your Mantle btw!

Edited April 24, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[Ohioastro]

 

His behavior since launch has not given a favorable impression.

 

And, yes, I was watching the  boards during beta, and he really went out of his way to do true beta testing.  Unfortunately, like a lot of other people who get wrapped up in something, he then apparently thought that he had earned the right to design the game itself.  It doesn't work that way, and after putting heart and soul into something for so long it stings. 

 

Nonetheless, other people have  not only a right but a duty to tell someone that what they're doing is counterproductive, especially if it's causing you to lose well-earned respect for what they do.

 

You seem to be as butthurt as TheisEjsing. And no, Sensuki didn't think he earned the right to design the game. Sensuki came up with suggestions to improve the game, a lot of backers agreed with his suggestions. Some didn't. Obsidian ignored a lot of those suggestions and we have a game that could have been better than what it is. eg. Suggestions like cyan for neutral NPCs which is now part of the IE mod. Fact.

 

Can we get back to the actual topic.

 

 

I feel sad that someone who contributed a lot here is acting out in such a remarkably self-destructive way.

 

I read his ideas, and basically he was arguing against the specific stated design goals of the developers.  That never works.  Some were OK - but a lot of his ideas were, to me, horrible.  For example, complaining about area looting vs. clicking on every bloody corpse.  He wanted pre-buffing, didn't like healing, engagement, stat design, class design, the writing style...Jesus.  Beta testers test whether something is working - they don't redesign games.  And there is a reason for that. 

 

The old games had a series of features - some deliberate, some from old habit, some from technical limitations. A lot of players get fixated on all of them as being necessary,  Good designers separate out the core ingredients for fun.  For instance, I've gotten really tired of spending all of my game time shuffling junk from A to B.  Thank God for the stash in this game, the lack of arrows, the crafting things that accumulate passively in the background. I spend my gaming time enjoying myself, not organizing and weeding through junk.  And this sort of thing is the sort of thing that traditionalists absolutely despise as "dumbing down" - even though, of course, I could keep unlimited piles of junk around in games like BG if I was willing to waste enough of my time to do it, with no in-game consequences at all.

 

And the basic proof that the developers were right is that this game is, by any rational measure, an enormous success.  It got incredibly positive professional reviews, for a genre that doesn't usually appeal to people who have favored relatively easy and shallow action games.  It got incredibly positive user reviews.  (Games where the users rebel have huge gaps in pro and user reviews, e.g. Dragon Age 2.) 

 

And then you have a subset here who lost design arguments with the designer - completely unsurprising - and who now hate the game and trash it all they can.  I've seen this movie before, and I'm not somehow being hurt.  I honestly think that the angry crowd would simply be better served by stepping back - for their sake, not mine.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I liked that mantle too, as well as his Memorial Stone-location, right on that very cool Heritage Hill.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Ohioastro: Our stash is PoE is a godsend, and since I don't really like strongholds, I love how the one in PoE confined to a list of options that I may ignore or react upon in a casual way. And while I'm at it - personally, I really dig that all prebuffing is gone - it was such a chore. It makes sense to buff when combat ensues. However, I still see problems with how cumbersome it can be in PoE, especially given the speed of combat and how the availability of spells work.

[Amentep]

 

My main problem with this game, however, is that it's low on surprises. If PoE was D&D, it'd be 4th ed. Way, way more balanced than AD&D with many many extra books -- but at the same time a bit boring. It's most evident in magic items and spells (no time stop + gate / imprison or magic blocking capes or gender changing magic items here, lol) but it's not only about mechanics -- everything seems rather tidy and safe even if discussing the quests and encounters. BG2 -- your party members get taken away from you, they turn against you, they matter because things that can happen to them can surprise you. PoE? Once you get them, they'll stay in their compartment and cause you no trouble. Quests have this same problem: oh how I have waited for that moment when I have fought some enemy in their lair and when I'm leaving the place feeling safe I encounter some real trouble that doesn't like what I have done. Thus far no such surprises.

 

But I hope this is just the first episode and many good things are waiting in the future.

Don't know how I missed this post. Yes. That's it exactly. It's low on those "danger", and "surprise" moments. And the problem is not just story based (companions deserting you, cursed items etc.) The safeness extends to the entire game - it's in the rules, and the mechanics, and the encounters.

 

Where are those "holy sh*t" moments for the first time player? Where is "Oh-God-I'm in trouble" feeling you got when you wandered off too far and suddenly found yourself face to face with a Basilisk that insta-killed you on sight because you weren't expecting it? Where is that "OMG what's happening here!?" feeling when you stumbled on a tomb and suddenly a nasty creature rose from the ground and cast time stop? Where is that moment when you had to go back to the drawing board and try something else because your tried and true set of attacks, that worked on everything else, were suddenly having no effect at all against that enemy. Where is that element of surprise when you're in a battle with a powerful wizard, and you realize you have the upper hand, but then suddenly he casts finger of death, takes out your Cleric, and now the Sh*t is real....suddenly.

 

People here wave this stuff away and argue from the viewpoint of a 10th playthrough when they've sufficiently Memorized every second of the game, and what to do in each instance, thus none of the above occurs. Which is neither fair or valid in this debate. PoE will suffer from the exact same scenario 15 years from now. No I take that back. PoE suffers from this situation already, on a second playthough, due to the fact that everything works on everything and those "holy sh*t" moments were never placed in the game in the first place, because ONE game developer thought that such moments are design mistakes that would only cause people to reload their games. Which for some reason is the Worst Thing Ever!

 

 

Its an interesting theory you're positing.  I'm not sure I agree, entirely, that all instances of insta-kill are fun (I hate, hate, hate, Maze in BG2).

 

However on the other-hand, there's a certain deception in the combat of PoE; other than high-damage creatures its very hard to tell when you're completely outclassed (at least as far as I've gotten).  In fact there's only twice I think I got ass-whopped in quick measure that I can think of.  Most other times I've lost to superior opponents, there was a point in the fight I thought I had a chance - and I suspect that this has to do with normal distributions of chance.  Certainly, if nothing else, hitting the basilisks in BG1 let you know immediately you'd wandered too far if you weren't ready for them.

 

And there's another weird effect, with no resurrection spells combined with a heavy, heavy penalty if you try to leave combat, odds are by the time you realize you're outclassed your only choice is to reload as you have no way to actually escape.  As I recall (and its been a decade or so since I played) you could run away from combat in BG1 and go to the temple and resurrect if the character didn't get chunked.  Sure you'd be out whatever the dead character was carrying, but you could try and stealth the items back by returning and just trying to grab the items and run away. 

[Stun]

Its an interesting theory you're positing.  I'm not sure I agree, entirely, that all instances of insta-kill are fun (I hate, hate, hate, Maze in BG2).

You mean Imprisonment. Maze isn't an insta-kill (unless you're soloing). Regardless, I don't understand the mindset here. You're not supposed to LOVE the enemy's attacks. You're supposed to respect and fear them.

 

However on the other-hand, there's a certain deception in the combat of PoE; other than high-damage creatures its very hard to tell when you're completely outclassed (at least as far as I've gotten).  In fact there's only twice I think I got ass-whopped in quick measure that I can think of.  Most other times I've lost to superior opponents, there was a point in the fight I thought I had a chance - and I suspect that this has to do with normal distributions of chance.  Certainly, if nothing else, hitting the basilisks in BG1 let you know immediately you'd wandered too far if you weren't ready for them.

 

And there's another weird effect, with no resurrection spells combined with a heavy, heavy penalty if you try to leave combat, odds are by the time you realize you're outclassed your only choice is to reload as you have no way to actually escape.  As I recall (and its been a decade or so since I played) you could run away from combat in BG1 and go to the temple and resurrect if the character didn't get chunked.  Sure you'd be out whatever the dead character was carrying, but you could try and stealth the items back by returning and just trying to grab the items and run away.

In fact, one of the load screen tips in Bg1 was to remind you that there's nothing wrong with running away if a fight proves too tough. But yeah. The Irony is Thick here. We have a game seemingly designed from the ground up to eliminate save scumming, and yet it puts whole systems in place that inadvertently force it. Edited April 24, 2015 by Stun

[View619]

Did anybody explain why the decision to prevent running from combat was included? Still feels like a heavy-handed way to force players to deal with a situation, and goes against the spirit of table-top/BG imo.

[Amentep]

STUN: I thought Maze and Imprisonment both was end-of-game if the PC got hit.  But its been awhile since I played so I'll chalk it up to poor memory.

 

VIEW: there may have been...I just know that it ends up being entirely ineffective to try from my experience (others may have had better luck).

Edited April 24, 2015 by Amentep