Are Paladins really that bad?

[Maximvs]

Paladins shine best when he's your main player ( for the +6 deflect +12 to all saves ) In a party that is mostly melee. His auras will help your partners and your pally can rez the knocked out along with defensive aoe's versus conditions. He can replace all the druid cleric healing if you don't mind playing it tight.

[b0rsuk]

I say the same to you my friend, what I said to the guy above.........I started this topic to seek a certain kind of info......if you read my original post, you will find out that I am talking about the effectiveness of Paladins specifically in PotD scenario........and no where have I said that PotD is the correct way of playing the game..

 

 

I kindly blame you for not putting "PotD" in the thread subject. Yes, the first post has the acronym, but it can be easily read as "Paladins are bad, by the way I play PotD".

[Ceranai]

btw, here's a paladin, POTD solo... with videos to prove it...

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77212-build-paladin-solo-potd-video-of-the-last-boss-included/?hl=%2Bpotd+%2Bsolo

one of the first POTD solos IIRC.

so your contention gets a big fat yawn from me.

 

This is true but this was also catharsis' second solo run through and he got pretty much all his damage from figurines and items.

 

Personally I find Paladins to be underwhelming damage dealers in PoTD but they make for good front line support characters, given how hard it is to get accuracy and DR their auras are super powerful, they can tank like a boss and their heal is super powerful early game. (Only one cast but it's per encounter so you don't need to rest as much.

[Kaylon]

Well, I don't understand why people keep talking about paladins being a npc. People who want to play as a paladin do it as their main, I certainly don't care about npc paladins. What I have to say is the paladin is one of the most versatile characters in the game and can deal with virtually any situation. I'm playing as a solo paladin in PotD and I killed Raedric with him at lv4 (and cleared also most of the keep) because of his ability to tank and to kite (speed aura and fast runner is like having boots of speed at lvl3).

[Brimsurfer]

 

I say the same to you my friend, what I said to the guy above.........I started this topic to seek a certain kind of info......if you read my original post, you will find out that I am talking about the effectiveness of Paladins specifically in PotD scenario........and no where have I said that PotD is the correct way of playing the game..

 

 

I kindly blame you for not putting "PotD" in the thread subject. Yes, the first post has the acronym, but it can be easily read as "Paladins are bad, by the way I play PotD".

 

 

Yes I realise it now, I forgot to do that....but still first post is clear and straight forward and it says that I am basically trying to get the feedback for a PotD playthrough.....

 

The title of this topic is based on what I have been reading everywhere on this forum and on reddit, and the reason to start this topic is to find out if there was any truth in what I read.......in the mean while I also got the chance to play a Paladin in PotD, although not for an extensive period of time and in my experience I did find them lacking in comparison to tanky front liners or any of the support classes.

 

Now I do understand the concept of the class, its a front line support class but it feels like the party would be stronger and more efficient without a hybrid semi support class that is Paladin, or at least in its current state it feels kind of weak.....

 

But then again my experience with Paladins in PotD is limited but it does sort of confirms what all these topics on this forum and reddit say about the class being the underdog and all.

 

So now I don't know what to say......

Edited April 15, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[CriticalFailure]

EDIT: And BTW forgive my ignorance but who is 'WE'?.....You keep saying *'WE' think* or *'WE' believe*, is that like a royal WE or what?

Gromnir is a half-orc character in BG2-Throne of Bhaal who sometimes talks about himself in third person or plural. That "hah, good fun" stuff is also a quote by him.

 

It was fine in the game. On a forum, however, I find it annoying and harder to read, but that's freedom of speech for you.

[Raven Darkholme]

Having finally created a PC paladin I must agree with what people repeatedly stated here, it makes a HUGE difference, especially if you custom create the rest of your party anyway.

The defensive bonuses you get are enormous and if it weren't for the lack of engaging more enemies, the paladin would be the best tank period. Since you also get the auras the paladin is really good. I now have a group which has no fighter tank whatsoever and makes up for it by having a lot of melees:

Tanks Paladin PC + Chanter, Off-tank Monk, melee rogue also I have a ranger with a wolf, the wolf hangs back for a few seconds to see if melee enemies make it through the 4 melees, if yes he engages those, if not he flanks fools to help the rogue. I also have a cipher, no priest I play moon godlike so healing is unnecessary. ;P

Oh and kind of OT, but a party in PotD makes the difficulty totally trivial, whens SCS? I already soloed Act 1 and 2 with Cipher and Monk, but having a party is less tedious though a tad bit too easy.

[Raz415]

I haven't played one as a melee fighter, but they are amazing tanks and ranged attackers. As a tank, he can easily keep himself alive and provide extra Deflection to the other tank or emergency healing. The per rest abilities that come from being a Watcher are great too. He can either provide a lot of support and remove buffs from enemies, which is just awesome. I use a Moon godlike and Consecrated Ground boots, it's basically god mode.

 

I had Pallegina as ranged support for some games, she does great with an Arquebus. Huge damage with her weapon and extra Fire Damage, accuracy buff for your ranged party members (and converting hits to crits) and emergency healing. If enemies get past your front liners, she can intercept them and become a wall herself until your damage dealers kill it.

 

It does depend on what you need though, a CC heavy team doesn't benefit so much from a Paladin. I had a game when my Wizard's job was basically to Slicken, Combust and Chill Fog all the time while my Druid was DoTing everything to death; Paladin tank didn't really bring much, so I switched him for a Chanter and got much better results.

 

I have mostly played on Hard with Paladins, and am going through PotD with one as tank for now.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Raz415

[Brimsurfer]

 

EDIT: And BTW forgive my ignorance but who is 'WE'?.....You keep saying *'WE' think* or *'WE' believe*, is that like a royal WE or what?

Gromnir is a half-orc character in BG2-Throne of Bhaal who sometimes talks about himself in third person or plural. That "hah, good fun" stuff is also a quote by him.

 

It was fine in the game. On a forum, however, I find it annoying and harder to read, but that's freedom of speech for you.

 

 

Yea I remember Gromnir the Bhaalspawn and that morningstar he use to drop... I loved that morning star so much, i used IE to modify it to a +5 weapon lol.

[DracoSpirit86]

 

 

The shield is nice, but it's only a buckler so the tradeoff is a decent chunk of deflection (and reflex if you take the talent) off of your main tank to buff your party. Overall, probably worth it but the tradeoff is still there.

Not that much of a tradeoff, actually. The +5 to all defenses includes deflection, making the shield effectively +13, only 3 points behind a large shield, and you can enchant it to be fine/exceptional/superb in order to keep up high quality shields. Plus, as a small shield, it doesn't have an accuracy penalty, which is nice if you're leveraging Flames of Devotion.

 

Personally, I really like Lay on Hands. Even with minimal Might, the damage healed is still significant for the first five or six levels, and a high Intellect gives you more ticks of healing to make up for the lower per tick value. In that stage of the game, even my Fighter tank sometimes encounters levels of hate that overwhelm his defenses and endurance, so the extra bump is handy to keep people alive. I like playing a Shieldbearer and taking the Shielding Touch talent to add the deflection bonus for even more damage mitigation.

 

You´re not alone. I think LOH is a solid skill as well.

 

By the way, there is a suberb shield found in the treasure pile of the adra dragon known as Little Savior, which also has Herald. I guess it´s kind of moot though, since the A.D is the toughest encounter in the game and anything after that poses no threat (even thaos is a cakewalk)

 

 

The age old rpg truth.. they always give you truly awesome stuff after you no longer need it!

[DracoSpirit86]

Something that would be nice, especially for the latter levels, if there was options to make paladins team buffs better. It be really characterful if your faith and convection bonus became a team buff at half effectiveness at level 9 or something like that.

[eubatham]

Yeah, in several MMOs, some classes excel at tanking several enemies at once, and some are completely dominant against a smaller number of enemies. In PoE, the Fighter is the former and the Paladin is the latter. With FaC and maxed out favored dispositions, the fighter can't touch the Paladin's defenses, though the Fighter can tank more normal enemies at once.

 

In the early to mid game, where the class you use really matters, I can't really see how Paladins are able to keep up with Fighters on single target after level 3.

 

Even in later levels, Fighters still have more defenses like higher deflection and converting hits into grazes, getting back up by themselves after being knocked out and being able to get crit less. A Paladin can get higher base saves, sure, but the fighter can surpass even a PC Paladin with 3+3 rep when it comes to saves (temporarily) via Vigorous Defense. The Paladin's only real advantage is getting 5 seconds off Dominance, which isn't super prevalent spell and certain enemies that use it, like the Fampyr, will always target your weakest party members anyway, reducing the usefulness even further.

 

But after a certain point, halfway through act 2 (even on PoTD), the differences between (all) classes when it comes to tanking becomes very blurred because you can boost defenses through items and spells (from chanters, druids and priests) so high that you can have any character to become virtually immune to damage (especially godlike characters).

 

btw, here's a paladin, POTD solo... with videos to prove it...

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/77212-build-paladin-solo-potd-video-of-the-last-boss-included/?hl=%2Bpotd+%2Bsolo

 

one of the first POTD solos IIRC.

 

so your contention gets a big fat yawn from me.

 

 

While PoTD is being solo'd by a great many classes, I'd like to point out that the player that did the solo PoTD Paladin run had this to say;

 

 

Wow, thats quite impressive.

 

If it's doable with a paladin, I'd say it's probably doable with all classes.

 

Thank you very much!  And yes this is also what i think. At least it means that it's doable for all the Melee classes.

 

 

Finally,

 

 

 

you aren't even paying attention to this thread if you believe Gromnir is the only personage who sees worth in the paladin as a support class.  therefore, most o' your post is based on a ridiculous premise that is ultimately meaningless anyway.  follow the herd mentality has always been a suspect course o' action.  nevertheless, since you brought up your imaginary 95% figure, we observed that many beta folks , folks with far more experience in the game than the average current poster, were near split on the paladin v. fighter as the best tank... though more than a few suggested that chanters were actual the best in that role.

 

 

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71065-480-tank-advice-for-a-main-pc-with-full-party-of-story-companions/?p=1583973

 

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/71286-paladins-support-only/?p=1587993

 

"Yeah, paladins have pretty garbage offense. They make for the best pure tanks, though."

 

is a common enough quote from a beta backer who has been playing the game for over 9 months.

 

is more than a few such threads and quotes.

 

priests as tank, off or otherwise?  HA!  we love our combat priests, but you are showing a fundamental lack o' understanding o' the game mechanics if you are genuine in  suggesting that priests better fulfill an off-tank role in poe.  alternatively, such stuff kinda undercuts whatever claims you could possibly make concerning your rationality and objectivity regarding paladins if you place priests ahead o' the knightly order class insofar as tankyness.  

 

am not sure what axe you got to grind regarding paladins. did pallagenia spit in your caeser salad?  being silly.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

You are still using the reasoning like "Paladins are great support" and "Paladins are great tanks" without explaining why that is. Stating "Paladins are great" and not explaining why they're so great, when other people are discussing the mechanics and explaining as to why they're lackluster, is really dull and annoying.

 

And no, only a seemingly handful of people are stating that the Paladin isn't lackluster both in this thread and across the forums. People are more often stating that they're viable to finish the game and can be fun, but that is completely unrelated from the subject of potential. Any class is viable, it's been mentioned again and again that people are finishing the game with just one character.

 

Also, the person you quote that states that Paladins are the best tanks also states the following (among other things);

 

Their abilities are scattered and confusing, such that they're not really designed to do anything in particular: tanking is the only role that all of their good options seem to support.

 

Which contradicts your statements that the Paladin offers great support, a statement that many people disagree with once they've used priests or chanters (especially at higher levels). So what is it? Are Paladins suddenly not great support anymore? Also, using quotes like "These people played the Beta for 9 months" is pointless, considering that the game got several heavy mechanical overhauls during beta and balance shifted around up until the last few weeks before launch.

Edited April 15, 2015 by eubatham

[Lychnidos]

 

EDIT: And BTW forgive my ignorance but who is 'WE'?.....You keep saying *'WE' think* or *'WE' believe*, is that like a royal WE or what?

Gromnir is a half-orc character in BG2-Throne of Bhaal who sometimes talks about himself in third person or plural. That "hah, good fun" stuff is also a quote by him.

 

It was fine in the game. On a forum, however, I find it annoying and harder to read, but that's freedom of speech for you.

 

 

:Chuckles:

 

Ha! Good Fun!

[illathid]

 

 

 

EDIT: And BTW forgive my ignorance but who is 'WE'?.....You keep saying *'WE' think* or *'WE' believe*, is that like a royal WE or what?

Gromnir is a half-orc character in BG2-Throne of Bhaal who sometimes talks about himself in third person or plural. That "hah, good fun" stuff is also a quote by him.

 

It was fine in the game. On a forum, however, I find it annoying and harder to read, but that's freedom of speech for you.

Yea I remember Gromnir the Bhaalspawn and that morningstar he use to drop... I loved that morning star so much, i used IE to modify it to a +5 weapon lol.

Gromnir the Bhaalspawn was modeled after Gromnir the poster you've been arguing with.

 

Also, for what it's worth I agree with Gromnir. The Paladin is excellent class, the major problem being that it is rather passive when compared to other melee classes. My PC paladin has deflection comparable to Eder, but is using an estoc and has done twice as much damage as him over my game.

[Ichthyic]

 

Just learn to read mate, what's the point in posting in a topic without reading it or the information that's already been posted before you.

because the information was utter ****e?

 

think of that did you?

 

of course not.

 

 

[Ichthyic]

 

While PoTD is being solo'd by a great many classes, I'd like to point out that the player that did the solo PoTD Paladin run had this to say;

you know what's really funny?

 

you didn't even notice that that paly was one of the first potd solos posted.  before anyone posted a fighter run.

 

hmmm.

 

 

[Rat Salat]

Well...

 

There are obviously better back line damage dealers, so let's assume we want a Paladin as a tank.

 

Fighter is a no-brainer for one slot, and for my money, a deflection tanking orlan chanter is hard to beat as second man on your front lines. There aren't a ton of other options for second tank, but DPS/offtanking fighter and Fire Godlike Barbarian do the trick. Paladin is no tankier than any of these three, and does less damage than the fighter and barbarian. The Orlan chanter brings drakes...

 

I like paladins, but they are weaker than the other classes. Doesn't mean you can't have fun with one.

[eubatham]

you know what's really funny?

you didn't even notice that that paly was one of the first potd solos posted.  before anyone posted a fighter run.

 

hmmm.

 

Did you even read what I quoted... ? You might also want check out the thread and see why he posted it. 

 

Also, the first PoTD solo's (as far as I know) was a rogue... so what?

Edited April 15, 2015 by eubatham

[Longknife]

BTW, has anyone been able to confirm whether Deep Faith is a flat bonus or an increase to each disposition increase?

 

If it's a flat bonus, then Paladins suck even more than expected.

 

 

 

you know what's really funny?

you didn't even notice that that paly was one of the first potd solos posted.  before anyone posted a fighter run.

 

 

You also fail to mention that the guy who posted it explicitly stated he chose Paladin to try and make the run as challenging as possible. All it really showcases is that any class can do it, not that Paladin is secretly OP.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Longknife

[Brimsurfer]

 

 

While PoTD is being solo'd by a great many classes, I'd like to point out that the player that did the solo PoTD Paladin run had this to say;

you know what's really funny?

 

you didn't even notice that that paly was one of the first potd solos posted.  before anyone posted a fighter run.

 

hmmm.

 

 

 

 

The guy who has never played the game in PotD difficulty, is arguing about comparative usefulness of a class in a full party on PotD difficulty ......... and for some reason he doesn't even stop to think what he is talking about or if he is even qualified to talk about it but yet he keeps arguing..........lol?.......you are so full of yourself, mate.

 

Also this thread is not about soloing PotD and its also not about whether Pally's can solo it or not. I just wish you use your head before posting random stuff otherwise just take your dumbo **** somewhere else, please. 

 

I only wanted to discuss the comparative usefulness of Paladins in a party because I did not want to feel like a second class member or a rather less useful member of my party where someone else make things happen and I just tag along doing a little bit of this and little bit of that, I did not want to be that guy, I believe I stated that specifically.......but yet you started talking about solo runs........seriously mate, just learn to read or at least try to use your head.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Brimsurfer

[Ram]

My Paladin (my main character on one my play throughs) has never died once, barely ever gets hit much, is statted specifically for being very hard to kill, does pretty good damage when using special abilities. Very fun to play, combat isn't too slow because of how survivable he is. I keep food, potions available but hardly ever need to use them and have stats in Survival so food will have more of an effect and yet he's still not really needed them. I'd say there is nothing at all bad about it. I'd be willing to even go as far as to say that from my particular usage of each class and testing them out before I decide what to play for each play through has led me to believe that as long as you do the stats correctly and play your class correctly and know your role, then you won't have any problems (however this is on the easiest difficulty, because I want to ease my way into the other difficulties after I've gotten so comfortable with the game that I feel like I can handle it). So I think it's better to pick what you want, stat it right as best that you can, learn from your mistakes and keep trying till you get it right - and never forget your role, keep your party aligned correctly at all times and enjoy it.

[eubatham]

BTW, has anyone been able to confirm whether Deep Faith is a flat bonus or an increase to each disposition increase?

 

If it's a flat bonus, then Paladins suck even more than expected.

 

It's a flat bonus, but it's still a good talent in all honesty. If it was an increase to each disposition I'd say it would be a tad too powerful for just one talent.

 

 

 

Also, for what it's worth I agree with Gromnir. The Paladin is excellent class, the major problem being that it is rather passive when compared to other melee classes. My PC paladin has deflection comparable to Eder, but is using an estoc and has done twice as much damage as him over my game.

 

When it comes to deflection it is impossible for a Paladin to be on equal footing as a Fighter (the Fighter should always have a small lead), especially when using an estoc as a Paladin. That is, unless you do not properly equip and/or build the fighter for tanking, while you do for the Paladin. But it is a minor detail, especially later in the game.

 

What is problematic with the Paladin is that while being a hair better at tanking than most other classes, his other uses are completely inadequate. His support abilities are minor at best and most are rendered pointless by Priests and Chanters (especially later on). Along with this, his offensive capabilities aren't much better than his supportive ones.

 

To underline this problem even further, I'll remind you that almost all optional traits and talents unique to the Paladin class have no bearing on tanking (for the Paladin) but do on support and offense. Again, area's where Paladins most people agree they're lackluster at.

Edited April 15, 2015 by eubatham

[Gromnir]

 

EDIT: And BTW forgive my ignorance but who is 'WE'?.....You keep saying *'WE' think* or *'WE' believe*, is that like a royal WE or what?

Gromnir is a half-orc character in BG2-Throne of Bhaal who sometimes talks about himself in third person or plural. That "hah, good fun" stuff is also a quote by him.

 

It was fine in the game. On a forum, however, I find it annoying and harder to read, but that's freedom of speech for you.

 

*sigh*

 

you got it backwards.  Gromnir were a forum poster who bioware included in tob... included precisely 'cause o' the interactions the biowarinas had with the forum poster. 

 

also, freedom o' speech is a largely irrelevant concept on a private owned message board.  nevertheless, am glad you find it to be annoying though as that is part o' the point.

 

off-topic alert, but as a point o' personal privilege, we responded.

 

"You are still using the reasoning like "Paladins are great support" and "Paladins are great tanks" without explaining why that is. Stating "Paladins are great" and not explaining why they're so great, when other people are discussing the mechanics and explaining as to why they're lackluster, is really dull and annoying"

 

you point to a post where we responded to a person who is using appeal to masses. we fight fire with a flamethrower.  duh. the technical advantages o' paladin has been explained to death, but you and the genesis poster refuse to accept, so, am responding to posts as they come.

 

from the guy who said naught but that paladins suck we find little need to continue to repeat already noted paladin qualities.  particular funny coming from you given how we mentioned the paladin's aura stacking with some vital priest spells, which you disbelieved.  perhaps you don't know near as much as you believe.  there is literal dozens o' paladin threads going back to the beta dissecting their abilities.  you need only do a simple search to get more details... if you wish to do so.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 15, 2015 by Gromnir

[Exoduss]

This thread demands to be closed and deleted imo 

[Longknife]

 

BTW, has anyone been able to confirm whether Deep Faith is a flat bonus or an increase to each disposition increase?

 

If it's a flat bonus, then Paladins suck even more than expected.

 

It's a flat bonus

 

 

RIP Paladins. Rest in Peace.

 

 

This means that a Fighter vs. a Paladin, as far as defense goes, looks like this:

 

Fighter:

 

15 Deflection, 10 of everything else and 35 deflection with 30 of everything else when Vigorous Defender is active

 

Paladin:

 

15 Deflection, 26 of everything else once both positive dispositions are maxed at 4 and Deep Faith is taken. (at the start of the game the paladin should have around 15 of the other defenses if just deep faith is taken)

 

 

It's a difference, but it just doesn't feel as though it's near enough to matter. Most incoming damage will be deflection-based, fortitude based attacks give you plenty of time to react to them, and will based attacks like stun, charm and petrify typically get spammed after the casters in the back. In practice, deflection is the number one concern for the frontline, and if a battle truly does have other problems such as spell spam or the like, Vigorous Defender, multiple heal methods and knockdown can keep the Fighter alive, whereas the Paladin....can't really do anything except hope it's raw stats are enough.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Longknife