Paladins - Support only?

[Zansatsu]

     I understand the concept that the design team went for when making the paladin, Sort of a Marshal Champion with mostly buffs and minor offensive capabilities.  I haven't played the beta and Launch is around the corner so my question is how limited is a paladins offensive capabilities (appears very)?  This class generally is my favorite and even though they are never designed with the top damage output in mind they usually are quite respectable. I just finished another BG 2 run and my paladin was an absolute beast. Blackguards are badass as well.

 

     They seem to have only 2 offensive minded abilities, Flames of Devotion (once per encounter blah really? Why not just have it augment your attacks during a fight with burn damage and if you absolutely must, put a time limit on how long it lasts), Zealous Focus, and then Sworn Enemy which sounds amazing. Only problem with Sworn Enemy is it is once per day so this is boss fights only. Everything else is centered around Defense. Also if this character isn't really Offensive minded then how useful is Inspiring Triumph anyway? 

 

    I suppose since the Paladin has so many Defensive stats then really he could wear much lighter armor and be pretty hardy with an increased attack speed. My point is, are they decent DPS and if not other than standing next to the group for your modal buffs and commands, what kind of gameplay can one expect. I'm underwhelmed by this class on paper.

 

    In summation, does he deal decent damage or would trying to make him do so gimp what the class can do? If it would gimp him, how good are the paladins buff? He doesn't scream take me over Chanter or Priest. Not being able to play the beta and test things out I really don't want to go in with a character concept that isn't going to pay off.

 

Also looking at the wiki they got rid of 

• Zealous Barrage (Modal) – The paladin and all allies standing within 3m have their attack and ability speed increased.

Bummer

Edited March 19, 2015 by Zansatsu

[gkathellar]

Yeah, paladins have pretty garbage offense. They make for the best pure tanks, though.

[Zansatsu]

Yeah, paladins have pretty garbage offense. They make for the best pure tanks, though.

 

   Yeah I'm confused by this class to some degree. He's not listed as a front line fighter, and yet he has deflection out the wazoo.  The selection of abilities seems largely focused on making him tanky however his active abilities are all support based.  I feel like this class would improve considerably with the option to gain a few more Flames of Devotion (maybe max 3 per encounter or 2 per encounter with a 3rd that is only once per rest) and perhaps a second Sworn Enemy per rest.

   Also Reinforcing Exhortation and Hastening Exhortation seem to be at complete odds with one another. Why bolster a friendly targets ability to damage and enemy increasing his chance to kill it depriving himself of Hastening Exhortation.  What is going on with that?

[Tamerlane]

Flames of Devotion is getting changed to twice/encounter.

[gkathellar]

Slightly more Flames of Devotion is not going to make the Paladin's offense any less garbage. Their abilities are scattered and confusing, such that they're not really designed to do anything in particular: tanking is the only role that all of their good options seem to support.

[Luckmann]

The main issue (imo) of Paladins is that they aren't very.. let's say "interactive", past the initial stages of combat, for the majority of the game (judging by levels alone). While Flames of Devotion have been nerfed and become twice/encounter, that doesn't really change that. Previously, Bleak Walker Paladins especially could be rather devastating with Flames of Devotion by taking the Bleak Walker Talent ("Remember Rakhan Field", I think) that adds +50% Corrode Dmg to Flames of Devotion, paired with the Paladin Talent that increased Flames of Devotion Burn Dmg by another 50%. Doing this ate up 1/3 of all your Talents for a once-per-encounter Ability, though.

 

It is hard to say how it will play now, because we're not entirely sure what Sawyer did, but it was apparently aimed against this, so it's probably nothing good.

 

Overall, there are much better and flexible classes than the Paladin class when it comes to doing damage, and much more conceptually sound classes (*cough*Resolvesucksforpaladinsforsomereason*cough*), so it comes down to what is important to you.

 

Do you want to make a Paladin because it appeals to you? Play one. It'll work "well enough". But if it's more important for you to have the Large Sword and a Plate Armour, I'd go with a high-Intellect Barbarian (yes, really) or a low-Con high-Mig/Dex Fighter instead.

 

Yeah, paladins have pretty garbage offense. They make for the best pure tanks, though.

 

From a survivability PoV maybe, but when it comes to actually performing tanking actions, the Fighter easily wins out. That being said, tanking is 90% survivability in PoE, so that point might be somewhat moot.

 

Slightly more Flames of Devotion is not going to make the Paladin's offense any less garbage. Their abilities are scattered and confusing, such that they're not really designed to do anything in particular: tanking is the only role that all of their good options seem to support.

Unfortunately mostly true. Paladins seem to have a tendency to get the shaft when developers doesn't know what to really do with them. They easily end up in this odd position of not really being good at anything, even in a system that's supposed to be very open in terms of builds. It was discussed rather extensively a couple of months ago, but it appears nothing really stuck to the developers and the Paladin was left in limbo.

 

It's odd, too, because in my experience, Paladins are usually one of the most popular classes in almost any game. You'd think it'd get at least as much attention to detail as any other class. The only class that's been worse off is probably the Ranger, but at least the ranger is a recognized issue that appears to be worked on.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[Zansatsu]

Do you want to make a Paladin because it appeals to you? Play one. It'll work "well enough". But if it's more important for you to have the Large Sword and a Plate Armour, I'd go with a high-Intellect Barbarian (yes, really) or a low-Con high-Mig/Dex Fighter instead.

 

 

 

I really wanted to play a Paladin because they appeal to me but what are they good at? Taking hits only? As they stand right now they don't feel like any Paladin I've ever played before or are the weakest possible version of any Paladin archetype I've ever encountered

 

 

 

It's odd, too, because in my experience, Paladins are usually one of the most popular classes in almost any game. 

 

I agree they usually are. I'm pretty Disappointed. I know there is a lot of talk of play every class in any armor in any way but I still don't feel like there are many choices when it comes to builds. 

[gkathellar]

For what it's worth, Zan, unless you're playing on Path of the Damned, you can use a Paladin as a generic hitter. There'll be better choices, of course, but if you want to play a paladin who isn't all about sky-high defenses, you can get away with it.

[Judicator]

This is disappointing, I was really looking forward to playing a paladin for my first playthrough, but I guess Fighter or Barbarian might be it instead.

[etagloc]

I dont understand why people would skip playing the paladin or any class, just because he isnt nr.1 on damage or whatever.

it might just be me, but shouldn't your FIRST playthough be all about roleplaying the character you like. Its not like he can't hold his own, and its not like you can't complete the game with the class.

you can always make mr.überpower xxxtreme min/max in another playthough.
 

 

[Jimmy]

For what it's worth I just did a second playthrough of the beta on Path of the Damned with a Paladin in a DPS role alongside a tanky fighter and she did pretty well. 81 kills at the end of the playthrough and dished out 10k damage (second only to my arquebus rogue who had 82 kills/15k damage!) and was the only party member who didn't get knocked out a single time. Just had her in breastplate with an estoc - Flames of Devotion could dish out nearly 100 damage near the end there. However there's not a lot of active abilities to be using in combat so it's not especially fun - but definitely effective.

 

I'm sure another class would've been more suited from a pure min/max perspective but paladins are evidently more than viable even on the very hardest difficulty.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Jimmy

[Zansatsu]

I dont understand why people would skip playing the paladin or any class, just because he isnt nr.1 on damage or whatever.

it might just be me, but shouldn't your FIRST playthough be all about roleplaying the character you like. Its not like he can't hold his own, and its not like you can't complete the game with the class.

you can always make mr.überpower xxxtreme min/max in another playthough.

 

Your right I don't need him or want him to be the best Dps character, the problem I'm gathering is that he is underwehlming in every role including support which is his designed archatype. He isnt a healer, he is moderate at buffing. So whats his playstyle, tank ok. 2 of his passive are directly apposed to one another. If he can't kill anything what good is hasting exhortation? If they give more flames of devotion but reduce the damage let's hope it isn't to significant. Just being playable but a mess design wise does not a fun play through make for me. Also when other classes feel very flexible and strong all around it hurts when others are meh at there design goal with no flexibility

[etagloc]

 

I dont understand why people would skip playing the paladin or any class, just because he isnt nr.1 on damage or whatever.

it might just be me, but shouldn't your FIRST playthough be all about roleplaying the character you like. Its not like he can't hold his own, and its not like you can't complete the game with the class.

you can always make mr.überpower xxxtreme min/max in another playthough.

Your right I don't need him or want him to be the best Dps character, the problem I'm gathering is that he is underwehlming in every role including support which is his designed archatype. He isnt a healer, he is moderate at buffing. So whats his playstyle, tank ok. 2 of his passive are directly apposed to one another. If he can't kill anything what good is hasting exhortation? If they give more flames of devotion but reduce the damage let's hope it isn't to significant. Just being playable but a mess design wise does not a fun play through make for me. Also when other classes feel very flexible and strong all around it hurts when others are meh at there design goal with no flexibility

 

From what I have played of the BETA, i'd say that not being able to kill anything will not be a problem, if you tailor your paladin for damage. He can and will do damage

Edited March 20, 2015 by etagloc

[Zansatsu]

For what it's worth I just did a second playthrough of the beta on Path of the Damned with a Paladin in a DPS role alongside a tanky fighter and she did pretty well. 81 kills at the end of the playthrough and dished out 10k damage (second only to my arquebus rogue who had 82 kills/15k damage!) and was the only party member who didn't get knocked out a single time. Just had her in breastplate with an estoc - Flames of Devotion could dish out nearly 100 damage near the end there. However there's not a lot of active abilities to be using in combat so it's not especially fun - but definitely effective.

 

I'm sure another class would've been more suited from a pure min/max perspective but paladins are evidently more than viable even on the very hardest difficulty.

Good to know. Your the first person I've heard who's played that gave that kind of feed back. What kind of build was it?

[Judicator]

For what it's worth I just did a second playthrough of the beta on Path of the Damned with a Paladin in a DPS role alongside a tanky fighter and she did pretty well. 81 kills at the end of the playthrough and dished out 10k damage (second only to my arquebus rogue who had 82 kills/15k damage!) and was the only party member who didn't get knocked out a single time. Just had her in breastplate with an estoc - Flames of Devotion could dish out nearly 100 damage near the end there. However there's not a lot of active abilities to be using in combat so it's not especially fun - but definitely effective.

 

I'm sure another class would've been more suited from a pure min/max perspective but paladins are evidently more than viable even on the very hardest difficulty.

Well, that's good to hear. I guess we won't find out until we play the final version.

[Odd Hermit]

Thing is, having such high saves means Paladins don't get CCed as much. Their defense ... is their offense in a way. I've done fairly well with offensive Paladins. They don't give spectacular numbers but you don't have to worry about them dropping like a stone and a lot of debuff attacks pretty much just bounce off them.

 

Granted, you can avoid most debuffs by using high damage ranged and just not being hit by stuff 'cause your tank gets everything's attention first. But relative to other melee anyway.

 

If they had stronger offensive capabilities they'd be kind of overpowered. They're already fairly clearly the most optimal tank choice(and I've tried pretty hard to make Monk work).

 

They do need more active abilities and more interesting ones than "attack that does extra damage X/encounter". And it's hard to justify spending a bunch of talents on a use(or two) of Flames of Devotion.

 

Liberating and Reviving Exhortation are good but they come pretty late.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Judicator]

Which would you say works better for a Paladin, sword and board or 2H?

[Odd Hermit]

Which would you say works better for a Paladin, sword and board or 2H?

 

Hatchet and Large Shield for pure tank is what I used. 2h for damage - or I've actually had a ranged Paladin just to give +6 accuracy to my casters.

[Zansatsu]

 

Which would you say works better for a Paladin, sword and board or 2H?

 

Hatchet and Large Shield for pure tank is what I used. 2h for damage - or I've actually had a ranged Paladin just to give +6 accuracy to my casters.

 

What was your attribute distribution? What kind of armor did you use?

[Judicator]

 

Which would you say works better for a Paladin, sword and board or 2H?

 

Hatchet and Large Shield for pure tank is what I used. 2h for damage - or I've actually had a ranged Paladin just to give +6 accuracy to my casters.

 

I'm thinking of having a fighter as the main tank and a paladin with a greatsword for melee damage. Or is the paladin better suited to tanking due to his abilities?

[Odd Hermit]

 

 

Which would you say works better for a Paladin, sword and board or 2H?

 

Hatchet and Large Shield for pure tank is what I used. 2h for damage - or I've actually had a ranged Paladin just to give +6 accuracy to my casters.

 

What was your attribute distribution? What kind of armor did you use?

 

 

For my Path of the Damned Paladin tank I used:

 

6 MIG

16 CON

6 DEX

20 PER

10 INT

20 RES

 

I normally don't take much constitution but I'd figured for PoD this character wouldn't be doing anything significant with mid-high might anyway due to poor accuracy and no damage talent/abilities. His job is to sit somewhere and not die while things beat on him. Occasionally use a Lay on Hands or Liberating Exhortation.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

Which would you say works better for a Paladin, sword and board or 2H?

 

Hatchet and Large Shield for pure tank is what I used. 2h for damage - or I've actually had a ranged Paladin just to give +6 accuracy to my casters.

 

What was your attribute distribution? What kind of armor did you use?

 

 

For my Path of the Damned Paladin tank I used:

 

6 MIG

16 CON

6 DEX

20 PER

10 INT

20 RES

 

I normally don't take much constitution but I'd figured for PoD this character wouldn't be doing anything significant with mid-high might anyway due to poor accuracy and no damage talent/abilities. His job is to sit somewhere and not die while things beat on him. Occasionally use a Lay on Hands or Liberating Exhortation.

 

What Race/Background did you go with?

[Odd Hermit]

 

I'm thinking of having a fighter as the main tank and a paladin with a greatsword for melee damage. Or is the paladin better suited to tanking due to his abilities?

 

 

 

Fighter is fine as a tank but Paladin is optimal IMO. Fighters are better damage but they won't have Paladin level defenses.

 

 

 

What Race/Background did you go with?

 

 

Orlan(Wild) and Aedyr.

[Judicator]

 

 

I'm thinking of having a fighter as the main tank and a paladin with a greatsword for melee damage. Or is the paladin better suited to tanking due to his abilities?

 

 

 

Fighter is fine as a tank but Paladin is optimal IMO. Fighters are better damage but they won't have Paladin level defenses.

 

 

Hm, then I guess I'll go with a Paladin tank with weapon focus knight for the battle axe and longsword, and I'll let Eder wield the 2h weapons. Too bad there's no barbarian npc.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Judicator

[Zansatsu]

 

 

 

Which would you say works better for a Paladin, sword and board or 2H?

 

Hatchet and Large Shield for pure tank is what I used. 2h for damage - or I've actually had a ranged Paladin just to give +6 accuracy to my casters.

 

What was your attribute distribution? What kind of armor did you use?

 

 

For my Path of the Damned Paladin tank I used:

 

6 MIG

16 CON

6 DEX

20 PER

10 INT

20 RES

 

I normally don't take much constitution but I'd figured for PoD this character wouldn't be doing anything significant with mid-high might anyway due to poor accuracy and no damage talent/abilities. His job is to sit somewhere and not die while things beat on him. Occasionally use a Lay on Hands or Liberating Exhortation.

 

I've heard resolve doesn't do too much for Paladins because it increase ability length, good for maybe one skill because the rest are modals.  Did you take it for just the added will defense because it stacks with Perception or does it really increase the length of your Exhortations?

 

 

Edit: nevermind I see why you took it over Int since you were tanking and didn't care about your Modal AOE's. Will is modded by Int and Res not Per.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Zansatsu