Seems like XP balance is out of whack

[Luckmann]

Well for reference, I can think of only 1 door so far that was quest-related that I was unable to open without a key... and funnily, it was bugged and I could open it up with the wrong key.

 

Other than that, I can't think of a single door I have to open with a key. I'm sure there are a couple.

 

And Stun, you're usually quite reasonable, but there is no way Athletics compares to Mechanics. Not even nearly. Athletics reduces an annoyance. Mechanics open doors. Literally and figuratively. And, of course, gives experience.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Luckmann

[Gromnir]

Agreed that trap/lock XP is an abomination. Directly incentivizes NOT picking up keys - which is idiotic beyond all belief. I won't mod the XP requirements, at least not my first or second playthrough. I want to see if the devs can fix it first haha.

 

But if anyone releases a mod to remove trap/lock XP, I will install it in a heartbeat. Walking around town compulsively unlocking everything even if I don't steal anything is the behavior of a crazy person. I don't do it, but I don't appreciate that the game incentivizes me to act like a crazy person.

lockpicking/trap xp is alternatively a pointless trinket to appease a group o' vocal malcontents or it results in the degenerative gameplay obsidian had concerns 'bout.  in either case, it is a joke... is a bad joke.  if the xp grants is so small as to be doing no harm, then it amounts to nothing more than a mere token.  bloat.  puffery.   if the trap/lock xp does encourage folks to retrace maps looking for a few missed chests so as to achieve an all-important level-up before a big battle, then it is indeed the bane obsidian were attempting to avoid.  

 

*shrug*

 

is no good argument to keep trap/lock xp other than  feel.  a group o' players claims they needs be enticed with a wizened sardine before they once more leap through poe' hoops.  no sardine?  then why would they bother doing the tricks, eh?  

 

...

 

were always a silly argument.  is no less silly post release.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited April 11, 2015 by Gromnir

[LadyCrimson]

I know nothing of the math of things, but I reached the start of Act3 at clvl9. This was with a full 6 party, clearing all areas + doing most sidequests (I'm sure I missed a few, and didn't pick up all companions) and the available bounties to that point. What I did not do is much of the Endless Paths.

 

Are people reaching Act3 at clvl 12 with full parties, or just smaller ones? I can see it with smaller parties, definitely, but I can't imagine getting to 12 before then otherwise - is it just because I didn't do Endless Paths yet?

 

Edit: oh...I haven't unlocked every chest in the game. Some, but probably not even close to "most." That could be part of it too I guess.

[Zorfab]

Reminds me of Deus Ex Human Revolution... That game had silly exp system that let you harvest it from multiple paths/sources, which caused some players to backtrack and do everything. Even though you did not actually need all that xp to get through the game.

[Gromnir]

 

 

Edit: oh...I haven't unlocked every chest in the game. Some, but probably not even close to "most." That could be part of it too I guess.

no.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: made it look more like a vol response... for funsies.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Gromnir

[Rosveen]

I know nothing of the math of things, but I reached the start of Act3 at clvl9. This was with a full 6 party, clearing all areas + doing most sidequests (I'm sure I missed a few, and didn't pick up all companions) and the available bounties to that point. What I did not do is much of the Endless Paths.

 

Are people reaching Act3 at clvl 12 with full parties, or just smaller ones? I can see it with smaller parties, definitely, but I can't imagine getting to 12 before then otherwise - is it just because I didn't do Endless Paths yet?

 

Edit: oh...I haven't unlocked every chest in the game. Some, but probably not even close to "most." That could be part of it too I guess.

Did you do bounties? I did every quest I came across and I was level 9 at the beginning of Act 3, then I reached level 12, but I still had the entire Endless Paths and two tiers of bounties left.

[LadyCrimson]

Did you do bounties? I did every quest I came across and I was level 9 at the beginning of Act 3, then I reached level 12, but I still had the entire Endless Paths and two tiers of bounties left.

Yes, I said I did bounties that were available to me. There were 3 or 4, at least one of which

 

 

you can't even do until Act3 starts/you can get to the right area. I have one left on that list and I think it's also in an Act3 area. He does not offer anymore bounties until you've finished the original grouping.

 

 

Edit: maybe that's a tiny bit of a sort of spoiler, tag added

2nd Edit: my question was related to idea that people were reaching lvl12 before Act3.

[Rosveen]

Oh. Right, long day, I didn't notice you already mentioned it. Either way, all XP in the Endless Paths was wasted for me. Bow much exactly is it, anyone knows?

 

I think the bounty in Elmshore might have been placed there specifically to prevent people from doing too many bounties too early. They do give a ton of XP.

[Hassat Hunter]

I'm sorry, I NEVER did that. Nor did any good player. Of course, I can't speak for any little kiddies who might have snuck into their big brother's room to play BG2. Well...? Did you?

"Don't do it" doesn't make a broken mechanic less broken.

 

Also funny that BG2 is given this leniency, but you immediately come down with force if there's a system in PoE which is less broken than that is in PoE.

Double standards? I'm not surprised.

And BG2 IS a great Game. By any definition of what a great game is.

It has it's share of flaws. And Obsidian tried to fix several of those. Sadly, the trap/lock XP was 2 steps back again.

It was about perfect, actually. And it wasn't "BG's Leveling system". It was AD&D's. But again, I can't speak for misconceptions that any of the kiddies might have.

Sure, people who see faults in broken issues are kids, personal insults *really* help your argument... :eyeroll:

But it's easy to see why it's perfect if all imperfections are waved with the mantle of love "sure it's broken, but you can simply not exploit those dozens of loopholes..."

That makes it rather easy to make a system 'Perfect' (just a question do you work for a banana republic government?)

 

BioWare themselves had to ragtag stuff like Quest Awards for all people rather than regular XP bonusses to compete with the mess they made of stuff in BG2. And funnilly enough with ToB I could kill Irenicus with 5 levels of my extremely overpowered ToB abilities.

Yeah... leveling... it ain't done well in the BW games.

Oh? By all means then. Tell us how many there are.

Pretty much all of them. Most use of the key-required doors were in Defiance Bay, and from the top of my head those were 3. Then 1 more in Twin Elms.

But feel free to point out all the others I seem to have missed.

On Path of the Damned, that "Only Use" is about as important as breathing is in real life. Considering how low the XP cap is in this game, I'd argue that Athletics is of equal importance as Mechanics. High athletics means you can survive longer in dungeons and out in the wilds without having to trudge back to town to rest or buy camping supplies, while mechanics gives you the hidden stashes. That's about Equal.

One saves you time, and the other makes you more powerful.

 

Yeah, I don't see the equal footing there.

Oh man.... I was gonna just blow your post off as silly. But now that you said "Seriously...." That changes everything.

Atleast you got a sense of humour XD

[Luckmann]

Reminds me of Deus Ex Human Revolution... That game had silly exp system that let you harvest it from multiple paths/sources, which caused some players to backtrack and do everything. Even though you did not actually need all that xp to get through the game.

Yeah, DX:HR had really messed-up progression and experience system, and doesn't seem to have gotten the point of Deus Ex's Goal-Oriented Experience either. DX:HR is all kinds of whack, progression wise, and it's a really flat, linear progression entirely based on experience that is distributed in the most arbitrary, abusable manner possible. DX:HR has many good qualities, but the developers clearly did not understand the charms of the original Deus Ex.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Talking about picking locks that require keys, I've come across two doors that I can't lock pick and is asking for a key. My lock pick skill is 9 atm. I've found quite a few doors that I can't lock pick without keys.

 

So Hassat Hunter, what skill do I need in Mechanics to lock pick these two doors?

 

 

 

Sanitarium. There's two doors where guards are standing.

 

 

 

 

[Luckmann]

Talking about picking locks that require keys, I've come across two doors that I can't lock pick and is asking for a key. My lock pick skill is 9 atm. I've found quite a few doors that I can't lock pick without keys.

 

So Hassat Hunter, what skill do I need in Mechanics to lock pick these two doors?

 

 

 

Sanitarium. There's two doors where guards are standing.

 

 

 

 

Locks that explicitly say that they require keys can never be lockpicked. Unfortunately. It feels quite arbitrary. The quests should've been made so that the questlines don't break just because you open doors before certain points.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Locks that explicitly say that they require keys can never be lockpicked. Unfortunately. It feels quite arbitrary. The quests should've been made so that the questlines don't break just because you open doors before certain points.

 

Oh I know, but Hassat Hunter said this with locks that require keys that can be picked.

 

 

Pretty much all of them.

 

 

 No. There's quite a lot of locks in the game requiring keys that can't be picked. Fact.

[Stun]

Also funny that BG2 is given this leniency, but you immediately come down with force if there's a system in PoE which is less broken than that is in PoE.

 

Double standards? I'm not surprised.

Not following. A double standard would be if Both games had the same broken system, and I responded by only coming down hard on one of them. But it is not my stance that BG2's XP system is broken, so why would I complain about it? (and for that matter, the only thing about PoE's XP system that I find broken is that the XP cap can be reached, with a party of 6, halfway through the game. See, unlike you, I'm not butthurt about lock and trap XP in PoE. I like being rewarded for using my skills)

 

 

 

 

BioWare themselves had to ragtag stuff like Quest Awards for all people rather than regular XP bonusses to compete with the mess they made of stuff in BG2.

Wait....they did what? Individual quest XP was the plan all along because BG2 was designed from the ground up to be massive in level scope, massive in area scope and massive in diverse playability. Not sure how one can conclude that this was "rag tag". had they just stuck with a lump sum quest reward system, they'd have ended up with the same problem that currently Plagues PoE, with quest XP being so massive that people are reaching the cap halfway through the game. Only in BG2's case it would have been worse since those quest XP rewards would have been 6x more massive for a soloer, thus ruining that super awesome early game solo play that BG2 has.

 

 

 

And funnilly enough with ToB I could kill Irenicus with 5 levels of my extremely overpowered ToB abilities.

Little known fact: Irenicus is actually a level capped Wizard. He's 29th level (the highest a Mage can get, with Throne of Bhaal installed). Therefore, the "problem" you're describing has NOTHING to do with the XP system and everything to do with his AI (he literally possesses Mage HLAs himself but does not use them)

 

One saves you time, and the other makes you more powerful.

Not really. I don't recall a single game changing magic item to be had from any secret stash, and contrary to the fanfare, traps in this game aren't game changing either, I've never died from one that I've set off (have you?), and the XP rewards for locks and traps are not significant enough to make you hit the XP cap sooner than halfway through the game.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Stun

[cirdanx]

Locks that explicitly say that they require keys can never be lockpicked. Unfortunately. It feels quite arbitrary. The quests should've been made so that the questlines don't break just because you open doors before certain points.

 

 

Locks that are there for story reasons can´t be picked thats true, but i would assume that the devs thought it would be pretty obvious, which i think it is. Otherwise they could just slapped a "can´t be picked because of magic...reasons whaterver" text over it, and then people would criticise that.

[rjshae]

Trap/Lock xp is dumb. Just like in IE games where people solo farmed locks for free levels. It should not exist.

 

I haven't seen it be a significant issue, but they could always do trap lore XP for selected difficulty ranges.

[Hassat Hunter]

So Hassat Hunter, what skill do I need in Mechanics to lock pick these two doors?

Those 2 doors can not be lockpicked... but neither have a key

 

EDIT:

And yes, I've had several times that traps just outright killed off my characters (Durance seemed the most prone to die by single trap even with 50% HP).

Edited April 11, 2015 by Hassat Hunter

[RedSocialKnight]

I know nothing of the math of things, but I reached the start of Act3 at clvl9. This was with a full 6 party, clearing all areas + doing most sidequests (I'm sure I missed a few, and didn't pick up all companions) and the available bounties to that point. What I did not do is much of the Endless Paths.

 

Huh. I guess I must be crit-pathing, although it hasn't felt like I am. I was level 7 at the start of Act 3 -- that's with all companions and with all major subquests I was aware of but no bounties and very little of the Endless Path.

 

In fact I felt under-leveled. I had to tiptoe past the ogres on the wat to Twin Elms because I wasn't able to take them on at that point.

[Luckmann]

 

Locks that explicitly say that they require keys can never be lockpicked. Unfortunately. It feels quite arbitrary. The quests should've been made so that the questlines don't break just because you open doors before certain points.

 

Locks that are there for story reasons can´t be picked thats true, but i would assume that the devs thought it would be pretty obvious, which i think it is. Otherwise they could just slapped a "can´t be picked because of magic...reasons whaterver" text over it, and then people would criticise that.

 

But.. that's pretty much what they've done. And I'm criticizing that. It's lazy quest design. I know I'm being unreasonable to a degree, but if you can't construct a quest to be in tune with the base mechanics of the game and what the game presents as a reasonable action, you shouldn't make the quest at all, and rather scrap it than to impose arbitrary restrictions.

 

There are exceptions where the reason why you can't open something with a lockpick is integrated into the quest's story, but those are exceptions, not the rule, and it should be made pretty damn clear when it happens.

 

 

Locks that explicitly say that they require keys can never be lockpicked. Unfortunately. It feels quite arbitrary. The quests should've been made so that the questlines don't break just because you open doors before certain points.

 

Oh I know, but Hassat Hunter said this with locks that require keys that can be picked.

 

 

Pretty much all of them.

 

 

 No. There's quite a lot of locks in the game requiring keys that can't be picked. Fact.

 

"Pretty much all of them" does not mean "Absolutely all of them". I would still say "Pretty much all of them" myself. And those that can't be picked without a reasonable explanation as to why.. that's just terrible quest design and should be criticised as such.

[mychal26]

In case anyone was interested, there is a neat post describing how you can change the required xp for level up. It's very easy to implement - within a few minutes I changed the level up xp to 125% of the original values (25% more xp required to level up). Going to start a new game and see how that goes.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76717-how-to-change-experience-per-level-requirement/

 

Edit: some notes - if you do 125% additional xp required for level up, you will get to level 12 right around the time that you would of reached level 13 with the original xp scaling. If you do 150%, you will get to level 12 close to when you would of reached level 14 with the original xp scaling.

Edited April 12, 2015 by mychal26

[Atheosis]

 

Trap/Lock xp is dumb. Just like in IE games where people solo farmed locks for free levels. It should not exist.

 

I haven't seen it be a significant issue, but they could always do trap lore XP for selected difficulty ranges.

 

 

It really shouldn't exist at all.  The traps and locks already reward you.

[cirdanx]

 

 

Locks that explicitly say that they require keys can never be lockpicked. Unfortunately. It feels quite arbitrary. The quests should've been made so that the questlines don't break just because you open doors before certain points.

 

Locks that are there for story reasons can´t be picked thats true, but i would assume that the devs thought it would be pretty obvious, which i think it is. Otherwise they could just slapped a "can´t be picked because of magic...reasons whaterver" text over it, and then people would criticise that.

 

But.. that's pretty much what they've done. And I'm criticizing that. It's lazy quest design. I know I'm being unreasonable to a degree, but if you can't construct a quest to be in tune with the base mechanics of the game and what the game presents as a reasonable action, you shouldn't make the quest at all, and rather scrap it than to impose arbitrary restrictions.

 

There are exceptions where the reason why you can't open something with a lockpick is integrated into the quest's story, but those are exceptions, not the rule, and it should be made pretty damn clear when it happens.

 

Yes thats what they have done, just without the text, my point was, would it be better to just have a text there that says "this lock is sealed you can not pick it" i don´t know if that would break immerson, i mean, my character isn´t a high class thief or lockpicker

 

I get your point, i do think that the max lvl for picking locks and even more important traps (endless path) is way too high. If you sacrifice everything into this you are just missing out options and possible different content due to checks in discussions, which i´m in favour as long as they are balanced, which doesn´t seem to be the case.

 

I could easily live without traps/locks giving xp, they don´t give much anyway and you easily cap out before the end. I think they might just got their math a little bit off there for the sake of allowing everyone to play like the want. Keep in mind it "should" be also designed to make it possible to make a solo run, which in return means you WANT that extra xp from traps/doors to even out the disadvantage.

 

However, thats pretty much how i remember most games like this, did it in the past too. You would always cap the xp lvl before you were done with the story IF you completed everything else. Personaly i don´t have a problem with it.

[GrinningReaper659]

Just thought I'd share that I'm in Act I and all six of my party members are at level six now. I've done everything I can except Endless Paths, which I haven't started at all. I imagine that with bestiary, lock, and trap XP (and possibly quest XP?) throughout however much of Endless Paths I could finish right now, as well as other possible XP gains related to the stronghold, I'd end up at least a couple of levels higher before even starting Act II. I'm playing on hard by the way.

Edited April 12, 2015 by GrinningReaper659

[Longknife]

TF are people doing to get EXP? I've never passed level 9. :C

[Cronstintein]

 

 No. There's quite a lot of locks in the game requiring keys that can't be picked. Fact.

 

 

This makes me wonder if you know what a fact is.  I could just as easily say "There are a few locks that can't be picked." See the problem?  A FACTUAL statement would be along the lines of 5/48 locks in the game cannot be picked. (numbers are made up in this case).  Also you are wrong, the vast majority of locks can be picked.

 

TF are people doing to get EXP? I've never passed level 9. :C

 

I think bounties are the biggest culprit.  Also doing the stronghold basement dungeon will probably skew things to a lesser extent.  I was level 9 in act 2 with plenty of quests left, 7th level in the dungeon and 3 bounties under my belt.  Not sure what else to tell ya!