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AlterKnacker

Twitter outrage over the "[spoiler]" quest

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Erm, according to Google construction worker average salary is ~$35K, and a nurse's average salary is ~$66K.

 

Regardless though, I get your poin, I mean just look at teachers!  I won't argue with you that some professions are underpaid.  But hey, that's capitalism.  I don't think it's any kind of conscious gender bias.

 

Salaries are controlled by supply and demand, and they definitely aren't "fair" by any stretch of the imagination.  I mean, you can get a 4 year BS in IT, and make WAY more than someone with a doctorate in Chemistry.

 

The numbers are different in Finland. Teachers OTOH are paid pretty well. :)

 

It's true that it's capitalism, though. Capitalism carries a huge patriarchal deadweight due to its history. All of its structures were set up when women had virtually no rights at all, and they've had to fight these structures for the rights they have now every step of the way. 

 

This is one (but by no means the only or even the primary) reason I'd like to see capitalism replaced by something better sooner rather than later. But that's a tangent for which this is neither the time nor the place.

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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In the tech field at least though there's way less sexism here I think. I work in my company's dev team, which is very nearly 50-50 male/female, and we have not done any "diversity hiring," rather than simply picking the best candidate for the job every time. It's also changing quite quickly: we're seeing a lot more qualified women applying for positions now than ten years ago.

You do realize that the ratio's of men/women in a given field isn't necessarily an insight into how much sexism exist in said field right?

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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I find it funny that anyone would be "offended" by this quest, considering "killing children" is a HUGE part of the story of this game. I mean, how do you miss learning about the Hollowborn? The Wichts? All the talk about abortion?

Probably a clue its fake.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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So yeah, I do think this is a systemic problem. I also think the fight is already over bar the shouting: everybody from Harebrained Schemes to inXile, Obsidian to Electronic Arts is now paying attention and we are seeing much less oblivious racism and sexism and much more interesting and diverse characters.

 

 

More diverse doesn't mean more better written, a boring white male character won't become any more interesting if he suddenly become a black woman and vice versa; more diversity won't make game characters more interesting, better writing would and that regardless of the characters gender, color or sexual orientation.

 

But if anything this "outrage culture" we currently have might just have the opposite effect and means having more and more bland and sanitized characters to try to avoid offending anybody: If you have a female character you will have to make sure that you don't use one of the evil tropes (she must never be kidnapped because it would be a damsel in distress one, she must never be defeated because it would be depowering, she must never be tortured because it would be violence against woman,etc...), same if he/she is black you better make sure you won't use any of the existing or yet to be invented potentially racist tropes and if you have a gay characters then better make sure she/he won't be presented in a bad light otherwise you might be called homophobic.

 

In the end developers might be tempted to play it safe with "clean" and boring, but diverse characters, that will allows them to play the "diversity" card while at the same time not risking offending any overzealous on-line social activist.

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You do realize that the ratio's of men/women in a given field isn't necessarily an insight into how much sexism exist in said field right?

 

I do. Anecdotal, I know. I'm not saying there's no sexism in the tech fields in Finland; I do think there's a good deal less of it here than, say, the Silicon Valley, 'sall.


I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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It's true that it's capitalism, though. Capitalism carries a huge patriarchal deadweight due to its history. All of its structures were set up when women had virtually no rights at all, and they've had to fight these structures for the rights they have now every step of the way. 

What a bunch of horse****.

The idea that you have to compete with other people in order to prove your worth is inherently unfair to women?

If I were a woman I'd be offended.

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Is it not possible that this line was, as he said, something that fell through the cracks that wouldn't have been acceptible?

No. As I said, I don't really buy that at all.

Again, it is FAR from the most potentially offensive thing in the game. You would have to be unusually sensitive and prone to being offended to find it objectionable in the first place. Unfortunately, twitter is full of such people.

If this one limerick "fell through the cracks" then so did a good 60% of the writing in the game.

 

But the company made the decision...so who are you mad at? Does not having this one line ruin the experience for you?

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The market or fair competition != capitalism. 

 

Capitalism is a crooked game which makes sure the same players always win the "competition."

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I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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@Longknife This may be a daring suggestion but I'm going to throw it out anyway.

 

Consider attempting to watch the FemFreq videos without your full battle armor on. I.e., just listen to what she has to say, reserving judgment on it for the moment.

 

She is making a case. Her case is about the representation of women in gaming. She is pointing out things that we mostly pass by without comment or without notice simply because they're so much a part of the accepted background to things that we tend to take it for granted. She does this by picking examples from an enormous variety of games.

 

What she is not doing is attempting to write balanced critiques -- political, ludographical, or otherwise -- of the games she's mentioning. That's not her intent. 

 

And while you're right -- IMO -- that she misses the mark on a number of the specific examples, I believe she's very much right about the general case she's making. Gaming culture does have a problem with the presence and representation of anyone who isn't white, straight, and male, and most of her examples are relevant at pointing this out.

 

 Very well said.

 

 The FF videos could be part of a useful discussion of the specific examples but several people seem to think they are an attack on games that they like (hint: they aren't; no, they just aren't) and react with hostile, idiotic responses that don't make a credible attempt to argue the points they disagree with.

 

 The video responses to the FF videos are beyond ridiculous - one ad hominem (err, ad feminem?) fallacy rant after another ("AS is a lying liar and no one should listen to anything she says!!!!111oneone!!!"). There are several videos from people who haven't watched (or haven't understood) the FF videos, things like "Haha, I can play a female character in legends of whatever 12, checkmate Anita Sarkeesian!!!111oneone(two!!)!!!"

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I hope Obsidian removes these other backer epitaphs

 

I assume they weren't VETTED

 

 

 

Unfortunately for Obsidian, they already burnt that powder. They already confirmed that "all the other content" than the original limerick HAS been vetted.

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HAHAHAAHAHA The people tweeting about this are as confused about the people in this thread who feel like Obsidian didn't actually remove the original line for the reason they stated. Well its good to know that there are stupid people on every side of the debate. At least now all of the people who think "obsidian caved" have proof that they didn't. Not like they will pay any attention though.

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'Capitalism is inherently sexist'

 

Haven't heard that insanity before.

Pretty sure he said that it was due to it's history, not the nature of capitalism itself.


"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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"Western Europe is somewhat more progressive than some parts of the US for sure, but egads the battle isn't won here either. Finland's among the top of the pack when it comes to gender equality -- I think it was recently rated by someone as the best country to work in if you're a woman --, and even here most corporate CEO's are men and a woman earns 80 cents to a man's euro on average."

 

COME ON.  If there's any inequality in the West it is that it favors women. More men are murdered, raped, inprisoned, commit suicide, lose custody, screw over in divorces, etc., etc. than women. This is FACT.


DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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The market or fair competition != capitalism. 

 

Capitalism is a crooked game which makes sure the same players always win the "competition."

No, Capitalism - by definition - is a system of free market enterprise based on impartial competition.

You're thinking of Cronyism.

But the company made the decision...so who are you mad at? Does not having this one line ruin the experience for you?

 

I'm mad at the twitter user for being retarded, and I'm mad at Obsidian for listening to a retard.

 

The presence or absence of the line has little impact on my overall enjoyment of the game, but it DOES make me worry about the direction the world is going.

Read this, for why: http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

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Did you all seriously make a 15 page thread in a day over a single tweet? Holy hell 

 

No, over a single tweet that may or may not have ever existed. 

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The market or fair competition != capitalism. 

 

Capitalism is a crooked game which makes sure the same players always win the "competition."

No, Capitalism - by definition - is a system of free market enterprise based on impartial competition.

You're thinking of Cronyism.

But the company made the decision...so who are you mad at? Does not having this one line ruin the experience for you?

 

I'm mad at the twitter user for being retarded, and I'm mad at Obsidian for listening to a retard.

 

The presence or absence of the line has little impact on my overall enjoyment of the game, but it DOES make me worry about the direction the world is going.

Read this, for why: http://orogion.deviantart.com/journal/Save-the-Boob-plate-380891149

 

 

Alright- wow, you're bonkers. Time to enjoy the game

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If you don't know what nepotism is, and how it influences the economy overall you may want to rethink how you view the world lol.  Literally every promotion I've ever gotten has been due to my relationships with my superiors.  I even found out years later I got the best job I ever had because of a mistake lol.  They'd meant to hire somebody's son, but instead hired me on accident! lol.  The HR person got fired shortly there after but I stayed for 4 1/2 years lol. 

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"They'd meant to hire somebody's son, but instead hired me on accident! lol.  The HR person got fired shortly there after but I stayed for 4 1/2 years lol."

 

L0L And, ow, poor HR person. :(

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DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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This, however, is not fake.

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“Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed.

“He once was alive, but now he’s dead.

“The last woman he bedded, turned out a man

“And crying in shame, off a cliff he ran.”

 

Firedorn. Bard, transmysogynistic scatlord, skeleton.

 

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If you don't know what nepotism is, and how it influences the economy overall you may want to rethink how you view the world lol.  Literally every promotion I've ever gotten has been due to my relationships with my superiors.  I even found out years later I got the best job I ever had because of a mistake lol.  They'd meant to hire somebody's son, but instead hired me on accident! lol.  The HR person got fired shortly there after but I stayed for 4 1/2 years lol. 

If I were you, I'd be guarding those factoids like gold, not gloating about it. That's disgusting.

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Alright- wow, you're bonkers. Time to enjoy the game

You didn't even read it, did you?

I don't know why people bother engaging in a textual medium for discussion when they're unwilling to read more than a dozen words at a time.

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I was kind of annoyed when OE let the limerick thing be changed, but seeing the butthurt about the change makes me glad they did it. People need to get over themselves.

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