What attribute bonuses should have been

[Skor]

These are what the current ability score bonuses are:

 

• Might:  + all damage (spell/melee/ranged), +fortitude
• Constitution:  + Endurance, + Health, + Fortitude
• Dexterity:  + Action speed, + Reflex
• Perception: + Interrupt, + Deflection, +Reflex
• Intelligence:  + Area of effect (all abilities), + Duration (all abilities regardless of physical, mental, or magical), + Will
• Resolve:  + Concentration, + Deflection, + Will

 As a result most characters focus on might and int, except for a couple of builds.  Why should all potent mages, priests, ciphers, archers, all damage dealers look like arnold schwartzenhager?  They shouldn't, its absurd.  Why should any character who wants to maximize their abilities durations, regardless of physical or magical orientation have to max out intelligence?  Why do all potent barbarians, priests, etc... have Einstien like intelligence?  They shouldn't, its absurd.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to make that kind of character if you want (at the expense of other areas), but it should definitely NOT be the norm for those classes. 

 

The current allocation of bonuses are unintuitive, lack common sense, and go against most RPG mechanic norms.  Deflection is a measurement of not being hit and DR is a measurement of shrugging off some of the damage after being hit.  Why then does resolve affect deflection, but not dexterity?  This current system fails on so many levels.  I'd never play a table top pnp rpg with this at the core of its character creation.

 

In my humble opinion (30+ years of running table top rpgs), I would have done something more along the lines of this:

 

• Might:  + melee damage, + fortitude, + might requirement for equiping various weapons and armor
• Constitution:  + Endurance (not a %, but actual integer per level bonus), + Health, + Fortitude
• Dexterity:  + Action speed, + Reflex, + Deflection
• Perception:  + Interrupt, + Defelction, + Ranged physical damage (guns/bows, basically your aim), +Reflex
• Intelligence:  + Area of effect, + Will, + Damage (spells)
• Resove:  + Concentration, + Will, + Duration

 

The current system creates a lot of dump stats for most character builds.  It should give each stat considerable weight so people don't want to dump them without taking a big hit, but still allow for unique builds that are not mainstream.

 

To be honest, I was really disappointed with the basic ability score mechanics in the game.  I've been looking forward to this game for 2 years.  And I know the developers are big time pnp gamers.  So why then did they utilize mechanics from the worst version of D&D ever made (4th ed), and why did the ability score mechanics fall so flat?  Seems crazy to me.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

I agree with you, but nobody kicked 4 million bucks towards either of us to make a video game, so maybe we're the ones who are crazy.

[Skor]

I agree with you, but nobody kicked 4 million bucks towards either of us to make a video game, so maybe we're the ones who are crazy.

 

I guess so. :banana:

[waretaringo]

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

[FalloutBoy]

In my humble opinion (30+ years of running table top rpgs), I would have done something more along the lines of this:

 

• (Something that looks like most other RPGs made in the last 30 years)

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your suggestion, but I appreciate that Obsidian is trying something original, rather than copying D&D or some other existing system. 

 

With that said, I disagree that every class will be a Might/Int build. That may be true for every DPS class, but some characters will need points in the defensive stats as well. Furthermore, if you want to min/max you are always going to be able to regardless of which stat does what.

 

EDIT: In fact, it's not even true for every DPS class. Single-target DPS don't gain much from Int.

Edited March 30, 2015 by FalloutBoy

[vikke]

They'll tweak the stats, or someone will mod the system There's already an IE mod out there.

[waretaringo]

also, Intellect isn't really that helpful for damage-dealing classes. they'd usually rather have Dexterity for more actions over time, which increases their damage output dramatically.

 

Intellect is mostly for the various support-focused builds - it benefits buffs and debuffs more than it does AoE damage effects, especially since a lot of the more powerful AoE damage effects are friendly fire enabled, forcing you to be highly tactical in their placement already

[Tigranes]

Obsidian's rationale was that a traditional spread often makes certain stats 'dumpy' for certain classes/builds, so that if you want to build a mage, then nobody would ever want more than 8 Might, and so on. That's why might affects all damage and INT affects all AOE, primarily. 

 

I'm fine with that - of course, currently the balance of each attrib is wonky so that instead everybody just takes Might, Dex and Int. It'd be good to rejiggle those in the upcoming patch.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

In my humble opinion (30+ years of running table top rpgs), I would have done something more along the lines of this:

 

• (Something that looks like most other RPGs made in the last 30 years)

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your suggestion, but I appreciate that Obsidian is trying something original, rather than copying D&D or some other existing system.

 

 

Exactly, that's why there are Fighters, Priests, Rogues, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, etc..

 

If you want original mechanics, play something like Divinity: Original Sin (or don't because I hate that game, but hey, everyone else seems to love it). Pillars of Eternity is by design Obsidian's take on D&D, not something 100% cut from whole cloth.

[PrimeJunta]

Yay, this again.

 

• Might:  + melee damage, + fortitude, + might requirement for equiping various weapons and armor

Becomes dump stat for wizards, ciphers, druids, rangers, chanters, and priests. Becomes pump stat for fighters, rogues, paladins, barbarians, and monks.

 

 

• Constitution:  + Endurance (not a %, but actual integer per level bonus), + Health, + Fortitude

 

I.e., no material change.

 

 

• Dexterity:  + Action speed, + Reflex, + Deflection

 

I.e. no material change.

 

 

• Perception:  + Interrupt, + Defelction, + Ranged physical damage (guns/bows, basically your aim), +Reflex

 

Becomes pump stat for rangers and ciphers. Dump stat for everyone else.

 

 

• Intelligence:  + Area of effect, + Will, + Damage (spells)

 

Pump stat for wizards, druids, and ciphers. Dump stat for everyone else.

 

 

• Resove:  + Concentration, + Will, + Duration

 

Pump for priests. Moderate for fighters. Dump for everyone else. 

 

Your system isn't any better.

[dirigible]

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your suggestion, but I appreciate that Obsidian is trying something original, rather than copying D&D or some other existing system.

 

 

Exactly, that's why there are Fighters, Priests, Rogues, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, etc..

 

If you want original mechanics, play something like Divinity: Original Sin (or don't because I hate that game, but hey, everyone else seems to love it). Pillars of Eternity is by design Obsidian's take on D&D, not something 100% cut from whole cloth.

 

The system is radically different from D&D. The setting is radically different from D&D. The only thing that's PoE shares with D&D is vancian magic, some class names, and the fact that everyone has 6 main stats.

[endruwiggin]

I actually like might as it is.

You want to build ANY character that focus on DAMAGE ? then u need might.

We can argue if might is actual muscle or brain muscle when casting spells, but i think it do the opposite of creating dump stats - all stats are needed atm, my dump stat is con really, thats my only "complaint"

[Skor]

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

 

Which must be why my mage and priest can both bend the bars with their bare hands to get into the castle.  LOL, yeah makes sense.

[waretaringo]

 

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

 

Which must be why my mage and priest can both bend the bars with their bare hands to get into the castle.  LOL, yeah makes sense.

 

the soul is mightier than the arm

or the steel, as the case may be.

Edited March 30, 2015 by waretaringo

[freche]

I would say that the problem isn't the stats. It's the skill system and class design.

The idea behind the current attribute system is that you should be able to pick points at random and still be viable, your play style would vary depending on stat choices but it should be viable.

 

That's however not the case. There need to be more skills (skills that might only be good and picked if you have high in a certain stat).

[dirigible]

 

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

 

Which must be why my mage and priest can both bend the bars with their bare hands to get into the castle.  LOL, yeah makes sense.

 

Steel isn't strong, boy. Flesh is stronger. What is a sword, compared to the hand that wields it? Look at the strength in your body, the desire in your heart. THAT'S power.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your suggestion, but I appreciate that Obsidian is trying something original, rather than copying D&D or some other existing system.

 

 

Exactly, that's why there are Fighters, Priests, Rogues, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, etc..

 

If you want original mechanics, play something like Divinity: Original Sin (or don't because I hate that game, but hey, everyone else seems to love it). Pillars of Eternity is by design Obsidian's take on D&D, not something 100% cut from whole cloth.

 

The system is radically different from D&D. The setting is radically different from D&D. The only thing that's PoE shares with D&D is vancian magic, some class names, and the fact that everyone has 6 main stats.

 

 

"D&D" is not a setting. Technically Planescape, Eberron, and Greyhawk are all "D&D" settings, if you choose to play games of D&D set in those worlds.

 

Mechanically, the biggest difference between D&D and Pillars is the fact that Pillars uses a d% instead of a d20 to randomize outcomes. Numenera, which uses the d20, is more different from D&D than Pillars is.

 

It's not a bad thing. It is what they were aiming for when they pitched the Kickstarter. Keep in mind that this game only exists because people were willing to back up their nostalgia for Baldur's Gate with serious cash. Everyone would be angry if they shipped, say, a first-person action-RPG a la Skyrim, or even an isometric-ish turn-based RPG with drastically different mechanics a la Divinity: Original Sin.

[barakav]

And I think that this system is great and refreshing ,I am tired of the regular attributes that exist in nearly every game in existence.

 

I also think that you and others just need to get used to it as it is more intuitive to someone who never played D&D than the regular attributes.

 

There are other design choices that I don't like but this one is very good IMO.

Edited March 30, 2015 by barakav

[dirigible]

 

The system is radically different from D&D. The setting is radically different from D&D. The only thing that's PoE shares with D&D is vancian magic, some class names, and the fact that everyone has 6 main stats.

 

 

"D&D" is not a setting. Technically Planescape, Eberron, and Greyhawk are all "D&D" settings, if you choose to play games of D&D set in those worlds.

 

Mechanically, the biggest difference between D&D and Pillars is the fact that Pillars uses a d% instead of a d20 to randomize outcomes. Numenera, which uses the d20, is more different from D&D than Pillars is.

 

It's not a bad thing. It is what they were aiming for when they pitched the Kickstarter. Keep in mind that this game only exists because people were willing to back up their nostalgia for Baldur's Gate with serious cash. Everyone would be angry if they shipped, say, a first-person action-RPG a la Skyrim, or even an isometric-ish turn-based RPG with drastically different mechanics a la Divinity: Original Sin.

 

re: setting, yeah I know but no D&D video game has been set in anything resembling PoE's setting. Forgotten Realms, being the biggest example, didn't have firearms or psychics.

 

re: mechanics, you are overlooking a TON. The biggest difference is actually that PoE isn't turn based.

Edited March 30, 2015 by dirigible

[FalloutBoy]

 

 

 

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your suggestion, but I appreciate that Obsidian is trying something original, rather than copying D&D or some other existing system.

 

 

Exactly, that's why there are Fighters, Priests, Rogues, Wizards, Druids, Rangers, etc..

 

If you want original mechanics, play something like Divinity: Original Sin (or don't because I hate that game, but hey, everyone else seems to love it). Pillars of Eternity is by design Obsidian's take on D&D, not something 100% cut from whole cloth.

 

The system is radically different from D&D. The setting is radically different from D&D. The only thing that's PoE shares with D&D is vancian magic, some class names, and the fact that everyone has 6 main stats.

 

 

"D&D" is not a setting. Technically Planescape, Eberron, and Greyhawk are all "D&D" settings, if you choose to play games of D&D set in those worlds.

 

Mechanically, the biggest difference between D&D and Pillars is the fact that Pillars uses a d% instead of a d20 to randomize outcomes. Numenera, which uses the d20, is more different from D&D than Pillars is.

 

It's not a bad thing. It is what they were aiming for when they pitched the Kickstarter. Keep in mind that this game only exists because people were willing to back up their nostalgia for Baldur's Gate with serious cash. Everyone would be angry if they shipped, say, a first-person action-RPG a la Skyrim, or even an isometric-ish turn-based RPG with drastically different mechanics a la Divinity: Original Sin.

 

 

It doesn't really matter which game was or wasn't trying to copy which other game. The OP says he doesn't like how the stats work and suggested an alternative that looks cut-and-pasted from some other RPG. I think the idea of having one stat controlling damage for all classes is kind of clever and I like the effect it has on character creation. I also kind of like the fact that everyone basically has 4 different values of armor class (DR). We don't need every RPG system to work the same. They can coexist. Ultimately they are just knobs that we turn to customize our character. The game can still be good regardless of which knob does what.

[Katarack21]

 As a result most characters focus on might and int, except for a couple of builds.  Why should all potent mages, priests, ciphers, archers, all damage dealers look like arnold schwartzenhager? 

Here's your problem. Might is not strength. Having a high might does not mean you have big, hardcore muscles.

[dirigible]

I also kind of like the fact that everyone basically has 4 different values of armor class (DR).

 

Honestly the biggest problem I have with PoE (not really) is that Deflection is the one-stat-to-rule-them-all.

 

Like, when I cast Jolting Touch, I have to bypass your Deflection?? What exactly are you deflecting? My hand? The electricity?

[Skor]

 

 As a result most characters focus on might and int, except for a couple of builds.  Why should all potent mages, priests, ciphers, archers, all damage dealers look like arnold schwartzenhager? 

Here's your problem. Might is not strength. Having a high might does not mean you have big, hardcore muscles.

 

But thats not how the game plays it out, like in scripted events such as the one I mentioned above.  Despite the appreciated conan referrence above,  Physical str is different than mental fortitude and one stat to represent two concepts that are normally diametrically opposed is clunky.

[dukefx]

 

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

 

Which must be why my mage and priest can both bend the bars with their bare hands to get into the castle.  LOL, yeah makes sense.

 

And by your logic a keen eye will magically make arrows, bolts, and bullets fly faster or be shot with more force... right! Call the stats whatever you like, I know names don't always make perfect sense but your version would make it yet another DnD game where we have 3 dump stats for each class with little to no variety.

 

Edit: and to make you understand what might means... think of it as an equation, like P = U x I. Lets convert this to Might = Muscle strength x Will power. Might = 10 can be achieved in many ways, like 2x5, or 1x10, or 10x1.

Edited March 30, 2015 by dukefx

[Matt516]

This was endlessly discussed during the Beta, and I'm not surprised to see it pop up anew now that the game is out and everyone has their hands on the game.

 

The crux of it is - if you come into PoE expecting a D&D stat system, you're going to be disappointed. Period. Obsidian set out with different design goals (some of which were to correct perceived weaknesses with the D&D system such as universal dump/pump stats for different classes) and a completely different setting. Their stats (particularly Might, which is usually the big bugbear in these discussions) are fundamentally different from D&D stats - intentionally so. Might works in the setting as the strength of a soul. If it still bothers you, feel free to conflate it somewhat with physical strength and use the philosophy that magical spells are more powerful when cast by a person of considerable physical strength - a very common idea in fantasy settings, btw (just not in D&D afaik).

 

Now I won't deny that the stats could use some re-jiggering... back during the early Beta I put together a fairly extensive paper with Sensuki that made a number of suggestions to rebalance the attribute bonuses from stats. Some were adopted, many weren't. In any case, I'd agree that a few of the stats are a little weak at the moment - but they're still perfecting the system.

 

So I guess what I'm trying to say is... you're not gonna get Might changed, it was made the way it is for both design and lore reasons. Different from D&D doesn't mean "worse", and "spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate" doesn't mean "will use the D&D system". But I agree with you that they could certainly stand to balance the stats a little more - Constitution particularly is in a really bad place. Maybe if it granted natural DR of some kind? Now that would be interesting...

Edited March 30, 2015 by Matt516