End-game Critical path too easy?

[Mazisky]

I'm worried.

 

 

In this kind of game almost everybody will go for a full exploration, expecially when there are cool places like the Endless path.

this means that the party will be overpowered when going for the critical path, being this one the last part to do in a completionist playthrough.. 

I'm afraid that passing through final encounters\killing bosses with ease could be immersion breaking, i really hope that end game crit path  enemies are really tough, even for a lvl 12 full geared party

Edited March 17, 2015 by Mazisky

[Kjaamor]

Bit late for another level-scaling debate, isn't it?

[Namutree]

I'm worried.

 

 

In this kind of game almost everybody will go for a full exploration, expecially when there are cool places like the Endless path.

this means that the party will be overpowered when going for the critical path, being this one the last part to do in a completionist playthrough.. 

I'm afraid that passing through final encounters\killing bosses with ease could be immersion breaking, i really hope that end game crit path  enemies are really tough, even for a lvl 12 full geared party

On path of the damned (maybe hard mode too) I'm sure it will be.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Namutree

[Zack Fair]

I too myself worry about this a little. Especially since Sawyer designed the game so exploration and the side quests are optional, and you can finish the crit path without doing those. He also said that the sidequests will be the ones which contain the really challenging quests. Thus the crit path has to be easier, if players must be able to finish it without developing their characters during sidequests. But this also means that if someone does the sidequests, s/he will have a very strong party, and the crit path will be a cakewalk. It would be pretty underwhelming if the final epic battle would pose no challenge at all.

 

Sure, I can up the difficulty, but that might mean that while the crit path will have the optimal difficulty, the sidequests will have an unbeatable difficulty for me. You can't really win here. Either the crit patch will be easy and the sidequests will have optimal difficulty, or the crit path will have optimal difficulty but the sidequests will be too hard.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Zack Fair

[Tartantyco]

[Sedrefilos]

Well, exploration is supposed to help you achieve your critical path more easily, is it not? Why explore after all, roleplay-wise? Because you have nothing better to do? No, you have to accomplish a task; you're forced in a situation you have to make it through it to the end. But you must be prepared, thus going adventuring and becoming more powerful so you can accomplish your basic goal more easily. I thought this is normal. If the critical path is impossible without exploration, it'll make exploration mandatory, which makes exploration not being exploration at the end.

 

I believe the game will be tough if you go straight to the crit path and challenging to a bit easy depending of the extension of your exploration.

[Bazy]

Josh answered this years ago:

 

 

 

In a good game, in my opinion, minions should become easier to kill as you level up, while boss mobs and other special encounters should become more difficult. I think that it takes a combination of good level design and encounter scaling to achieving this to a workable degree in most games. Perhaps in conjunction with an encounter-changing difficulty slider.

I think we've said this before, but the only things we're likely to scale with player level are crit-path special encounters and even then, only within a range of levels. E.g. take a boss like Sherincal in IWD2. Maybe you'll encounter her at 5th level, but it's possible you could encounter her at 8th level. If 5th-8th is the most common range, we'd scale around that, but if you encounter her sub-5th level, you'll have to deal with the difference. If you encounter her at 9th or 10th by some x-treme XP mining, it will be a little easier for you.

The reason to scale the crit path special encounters is to allow for the fact that not everyone wants to do a lot of side content. Some people want to (largely) stick to the crit path with minimal side quests.

When it comes to the optional/side content, there won't be any scaling at all. Rats in the cellar will still be rats and may explode from your mere presence and the dragon Chrysophylax will probably burn you to ashes if you mosey up to his lair at 3rd level.

 

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63017-level-scaling-and-its-misuse/page-9?hl=scaling&do=findComment&comment=1297921

 

They also recently said at PAX that the side encounters would be the hardest content. Which makes sense to me. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by Bazy

[Stun]

I'm worried.

 

 

In this kind of game almost everybody will go for a full exploration, expecially when there are cool places like the Endless path.

this means that the party will be overpowered when going for the critical path, being this one the last part to do in a completionist playthrough.. 

I'm afraid that passing through final encounters\killing bosses with ease could be immersion breaking, i really hope that end game crit path  enemies are really tough, even for a lvl 12 full geared party

I'm not worried in the slightest.

 

Both of the BG games managed a design where the optional content totally outweighed the crit path content by a factor of 3x or more. And this lead to completionist parties who were several levels higher than crit path minimalist groups. And it wasn't a problem. There's no reason to think this design won't be successfully duplicated in PoE.

 

Plus this game has a level cap.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Stun

[Mazisky]

Nice!! the idea of critical path scaling enemies should make them tough even with a super party. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by Mazisky

[Messier-31]

They also recently said at PAX that the side encounters would be the hardest content. Which makes sense to me. 

 

I just hope that not every side-content hobo you encounter will be a demigod prince of darkness whooping the player's ass without a sweat

[Fluffsy]

 

They also recently said at PAX that the side encounters would be the hardest content. Which makes sense to me. 

 

I just hope that not every side-content hobo you encounter will be a demigod prince of darkness whooping the player's ass without a sweat

 

 

My most memorable encounter in DA:O was a Hermit in the elven forrest. If anything I wish more encounters like that one.

Edited March 17, 2015 by Fluffsy

[teknoman2]

the final boss (if there even is one) will be lv10 if you are llv9 or less, lv11 if you are lv10, lv12 if you are lv11 and lv13 if you are lv12. a simple solution to a simple problem

[Messier-31]

My most memorable encounter in DA:O was a Hermit in the elven forrest. If anything I wish more encounters like that one.

 

He was amusing

 

Alas I dare say that you like that encounter so much only because that type of encounter was unique and not happening very often (once to be precise).

[Suhiir]

I rather like it.

Some players prefer to concentrate on the main mission and consider side quests unnecessary, if not outright annoying fluff.

Others want to “do it all” but tend to find side quests useful primarily for gaining XP and a little extra cash … and on rare occasions a worthwhile item.

Here we have a game that makes side quests difficult and rewarding.

What a novel concept ! ((yes,that was sarcasm))

[Bazy]

the final boss (if there even is one) will be lv10 if you are llv9 or less, lv11 if you are lv10, lv12 if you are lv11 and lv13 if you are lv12. a simple solution to a simple problem

No.

 

The boss should be hard for all levels. Just less hard for higher levels. Personally I think some side content should be required. 

 

 

Level scaling is a horrible horrible horrible thing. 

Edited March 17, 2015 by Bazy

[Namutree]

the final boss (if there even is one) will be lv10 if you are llv9 or less, lv11 if you are lv10, lv12 if you are lv11 and lv13 if you are lv12. a simple solution to a simple problem

[Stun]

the final boss (if there even is one) will be lv10 if you are llv9 or less, lv11 if you are lv10, lv12 if you are lv11 and lv13 if you are lv12. a simple solution to a simple problem

This would make the final boss way too easy.

 

Do you remember BG1? How would you rank Serevok in terms of difficulty? Because he was 16th level. In other words, he was twice a level capped party's level. Plus he had allies, plus his gear was cheese (his armor was +5 full plate and gave him 90% magic resistance)

 

Yet BG1's final encounter was 'just right' challenge-wise IMO. Besides, there's nothing wrong with giving crit-path minimalists what they deserve in the end: A Hard time.

[teknoman2]

BG2 did the side quests right.

they were not just filler to prolong the game, but were an integral part of the game's story. you needed a lot of money for the main quest, so you had to do side quests to get them and you had to buy gear along the way, so you had to do even more to gather the funds you needed. and of course each side quest had a story behind it that had at least a minor impact on the main story

[Shdy314]

My party of awesomely geared badasses are super badass and crush the BBEG! Immersion ruined!

[Elerond]

Latest what I have seen from subject from devs is that there is no level scaling/adjustment of encounters during game, so regardless which level you find encounter it is always same on predetermined level. In my understanding this is true both for critical path and side content encounters. Also it is said that you can't achieve max level without doing side content, this means that end game of critical path will be easier for those who do all the side content.

 

It is also mentioned that most difficult encounters of the game are side content and they are meant to for people that want have very though fights.

 

 

 

The boss should be hard for all levels. Just less hard for higher levels. Personally I think some side content should be required. 

 

 

All content that is required to complete game is by definition part of critical path and not side content, although there can be optional critical paths by offering lots of optional content which player need to do only part to finish the game.

[Ted Striker]

I'm worried. I'm worried about work, women, family, financial deals, and this test I'm about to take for a training course. The last thing I'm worried about is Pillars of Eternity,

[curryinahurry]

Between not having kill XP and a level cap, it should be pretty easy to control end game content.  

 

The fact is that the 1/3 time on the crit path will likely yield heavier XP rewards while the 2/3 exploring will yield lighter XP rewards but greater loot and other benefits.  

 

That said, if one really and truly adheres only to critical path content, then the final encounter should be extremely difficult if there is combat involved.  At the same time, the game should allow options for these players to either avoid combat or solicit help/ find other solutions since these are likely the types of players who aren't going to be particularly interested in the combat/ crafting/ completionist side of things.

[Namutree]

BG2 did the side quests right.

they were not just filler to prolong the game, but were an integral part of the game's story. you needed a lot of money for the main quest, so you had to do side quests to get them and you had to buy gear along the way, so you had to do even more to gather the funds you needed.

Not true.

 

You can easily get the money without doing any side quests.

 

Steal from a lot of people, Kill that gang of jerks in the sewer under the temple, loot all the fools who attack you in athkatla while transitioning between areas, and recruit people; take their stuff and sell it. Once done you will have enough gold to move on to chapter 3.

[morhilane]

 

the final boss (if there even is one) will be lv10 if you are llv9 or less, lv11 if you are lv10, lv12 if you are lv11 and lv13 if you are lv12. a simple solution to a simple problem

This would make the final boss way too easy.

 

Do you remember BG1? How would you rank Serevok in terms of difficulty? Because he was 16th level. In other words, he was twice a level capped party's level. Plus he had allies, plus his gear was cheese (his armor was +5 full plate and gave him 90% magic resistance)

 

Yet BG1's final encounter was 'just right' challenge-wise IMO. Besides, there's nothing wrong with giving crit-path minimalists what they deserve in the end: A Hard time.

 

 

He really has 90% Magic resistance? Are you saying that when I trapped him in a Otiluke's Resilient Sphere to deal with the trash first I was super lucky?

[Mazisky]

I'm worried. I'm worried about work, women, family, financial deals, and this test I'm about to take for a training course. The last thing I'm worried about is Pillars of Eternity,

 

That's why i opened this thread on a Pillars of Eternity forum and not on Men's Health one

Edited March 17, 2015 by Mazisky