Area looting confirmed

[Ted Striker]

You know, these guys are working really hard on this game, and they're very passionate about it. It's a really great thing to see considering what AAA Publishers and Developers tend to do to great games and franchises. I think whatever the Obsidian guys want to do, is more than likely going to be for the best. Now of course they're listening to us, and I believe they'll do what they can to accommodate the players, because in the end WE are the ones the game is being created for. 

[Kal Adan]

I find it easier to manually track which corpses I've looted if I actually have to click on each one. Area looting somewhat obfuscates that process, making it less easy to do manually. Yes, with shiny markers I can probably do that in my sleep, so what's the problem? I don't want to play games that put me to sleep.

...

 

Shiny loot makes it easier track which corpses you've looted = it's boring? I didn't know looting was supposed to be an engaging mini-game of some sorts. For me it was just picking up interesting items from the ground. I never found this activity to be particularly exciting. For me it suffices that the mechanic serves its purpose well enough to easily track which corpses I've looted.

Edited March 15, 2015 by Kal Adan

[h3st]

Remember how we used to steal off that merchant in Amn, to get that ring of regen...   This comes from a time we cared about gear, to the point even a small thing was noteworthy.

We REALLY spent time enjoying looting through every bit of loot we got from everyone, and more so - we were excited when it was from a boss or something noteworthy.

 

Throwing it all together in a lootall -area wide is just plain stupid and detracts from everything the game is supposed to stand for. Its an insult to the genre, and the old-school isometric games we all love. I do not support the mechanic at all, unless it is optional. In which case, that is revolutionary then.

Who's talking about throwing it all together in one big pile? We're talking tabs for the loot box, not your daft loot vacuumer idea. Seriously, you're fighting windmills, man.

[agris]

*DISCLAIMER* I have not read the past 9 pages

 

Why not go the IE Enhanced Editions' route and make area loot toggle-able and continue to support individual corpse looting? That seems to be a no brainer that doesn't force anyone into a specific style.

Edited March 15, 2015 by agris

[h3st]

But looting individual corpses IS supported with loot area? I don't see the problem. You just ignore the tabs and close the loot box more often and walk more.

[dorkboy]

@h3st and agris: You may find this post by Mr. Adler interesting. (Possibly optional looting range patched in later, but no individual tabs.)

 

@Kal Adan

Loot markers are like other UI markers that tell me where to go/look; it takes the piss out of exploration, because I know up front what I can and cannot ignore.

If I don't have that knowledge then I have to pay [more] attention to the environment and examine it (by way of mouse hovering) more carefully for clues and interactable objects.

I have no problem with other people not wanting to play it in that kind of slow poke manner, as long as those obvious/unambiguous UI markers ["go here, do this"] are optional.

Oh well..

[Lephys]

Which details would that be; nose sellion ratio and eyebrow curve? Rather depends on who you ask and what the overall game system looks like, wouldn't you say?

No, not really. There are certain things that are not needed. That is objectively discernable. That doesn't automatically state that only things that are strictly necessary should be in the game. But, I will say that having to maneuver your way around to each and every corpse, or pixel-hunt for items that your characters can plainly see (which is an even better example) are not objectively useful. The latter isn't even supportive of the game's design. "Your character has night-vision and 93 Perception, but to you, the player, this ground is simply dark and doesn't appear to have an item lying upon it." That's just plain silly. If someone enjoys pixel-hunting, that's fine. But that makes it neither a useful nor a cohesive part of the design.

 

At any rate, if you remove all the detail control/responsibility/freedom from the player's hands it becomes a rather passive and not very engaging experience, IMO. Area looting is of course a very minor delegation, all things considered, but it delegates nonetheless. At what point does it become too much?

Let's say that in your limited arrows example, instead of having to manually pixel hunt for them, the character's stats determine how many arrows they find. The player still has some active control over that aspect via the character speccing, even though the process is somewhat abstracted. (I think WL2 uses the Perception skill to modify the "loot range", but I'm not entirely sure..)

I realize that if you remove ALL of it, bad things happen. There are some foods that we might eat too much of. If we remove ALL food from our diet, we die. There's an awful lot of room between removing ALL of something, and none of it.

 

Also, I think you misunderstood me, since my example was for the player to not have to pixel-hunt, and instead, for the finding of arrows to be determined by character-attribute-related checks. I apologize if I was unclear.

[dorkboy]

@Lephys

We seem to agree on the first part?

 

And, in the spirit of apologizing for potential lack of clarity, I didn't mean to suggest you were in favour of pixel hunting for arrows. I was merely pointing out that in both cases there is some kind of player control over the outcome ("how many arrows"), it has merely shifted from pixel hunting to character stats. 

 

The thing I actually disagree with you on (apart from rather liking the occasional pixel hunting), is that you don't have to remove all of [good thing] for [bad thing] to occur. This is art, after all. On a more positive note, I don't need a total absence of [bad thing] for the game to be highly enjoyable, either. 

[Lephys]

@Lephys

We seem to agree on the first part?

 

And, in the spirit of apologizing for potential lack of clarity, I didn't mean to suggest you were in favour of pixel hunting for arrows. I was merely pointing out that in both cases there is some kind of player control over the outcome ("how many arrows"), it has merely shifted from pixel hunting to character stats.

My mistake. It seemed as though your intent was to counter my points, which is why I confusedly wondered why we were saying the same thing.

 

The thing I actually disagree with you on (apart from rather liking the occasional pixel hunting), is that you don't have to remove all of [good thing] for [bad thing] to occur. This is art, after all. On a more positive note, I don't need a total absence of [bad thing] for the game to be highly enjoyable, either.

Not to nitpick, but I didn't say that. Merely that it's quite obvious that removing ALL of something is too far. My point there is simply that, just as you can't remove something purely because it isn't "necessary," you can't include something merely because it is nice. Or rather, that cannot be the criteria by which you decide what to include. Otherwise, you would include infinite things that may-or-may not follow any rhyme-or-reason.

 

I realize that subjectivity is at work in a game. I mean, 7 weapon types isn't "necessary," but that doesn't mean we should only have 1. If an additional weapon type didn't contribute any new mechanics, though, then it'd be a lot less cost-effective to put in, regardless of how nice some people thought it would be. But, as we are talking about things the player is allowed to be directly responsible for, there are certain things that don't serve much purpose, examples for which are hard to produce without being blatantly overboard (such as "the player can control pooping" or "the player can pluck individual blades of grass out of the ground, until there is no grass.")

 

Essentially, it is implied that if you, the player, decide in your head "I want to see what that corpse has on it," the decision to move close enough as to be within range of looting that corpse is a given. That's why people's examples of PnP sessions are so great. How many people tell the DM "How many steps away from the corpse am I? Okay, I'd like to take that many steps toward the corpse. I'm there now? Okay, I'd like to reach down with my hands and remove the corpses backpack. Okay, now I'd like to dump the contents of that backpack onto the ground and observe them." No... you just tell the DM "I'd like to loot that corpse." It's understood what the required actions for physically looting that corpse are, and being able to control those does nothing, unless you're (for example) playing a game involving detective work/forensics, and it's designed to be first-person.

[Azmodiuz]

 

@Lephys

We seem to agree on the first part?

 

And, in the spirit of apologizing for potential lack of clarity, I didn't mean to suggest you were in favour of pixel hunting for arrows. I was merely pointing out that in both cases there is some kind of player control over the outcome ("how many arrows"), it has merely shifted from pixel hunting to character stats.

My mistake. It seemed as though your intent was to counter my points, which is why I confusedly wondered why we were saying the same thing.

 

The thing I actually disagree with you on (apart from rather liking the occasional pixel hunting), is that you don't have to remove all of [good thing] for [bad thing] to occur. This is art, after all. On a more positive note, I don't need a total absence of [bad thing] for the game to be highly enjoyable, either.

Not to nitpick, but I didn't say that. Merely that it's quite obvious that removing ALL of something is too far. My point there is simply that, just as you can't remove something purely because it isn't "necessary," you can't include something merely because it is nice. Or rather, that cannot be the criteria by which you decide what to include. Otherwise, you would include infinite things that may-or-may not follow any rhyme-or-reason.

 

I realize that subjectivity is at work in a game. I mean, 7 weapon types isn't "necessary," but that doesn't mean we should only have 1. If an additional weapon type didn't contribute any new mechanics, though, then it'd be a lot less cost-effective to put in, regardless of how nice some people thought it would be. But, as we are talking about things the player is allowed to be directly responsible for, there are certain things that don't serve much purpose, examples for which are hard to produce without being blatantly overboard (such as "the player can control pooping" or "the player can pluck individual blades of grass out of the ground, until there is no grass.")

 

Essentially, it is implied that if you, the player, decide in your head "I want to see what that corpse has on it," the decision to move close enough as to be within range of looting that corpse is a given. That's why people's examples of PnP sessions are so great. How many people tell the DM "How many steps away from the corpse am I? Okay, I'd like to take that many steps toward the corpse. I'm there now? Okay, I'd like to reach down with my hands and remove the corpses backpack. Okay, now I'd like to dump the contents of that backpack onto the ground and observe them." No... you just tell the DM "I'd like to loot that corpse." It's understood what the required actions for physically looting that corpse are, and being able to control those does nothing, unless you're (for example) playing a game involving detective work/forensics, and it's designed to be first-person.

 

 

 

I would argue that many do not ever think about what it actually means to loot a corpse. That your essentially/possibly stripping down a cadaver to steal its belongings. Some pretty gruesome acts, especially if its bloodied to all hell too. 

 

But I agree with most of what you are saying.  Wasteland 2 has it using perception to govern the circle around you that is the radius in which you will find things. Is it like that in PoE ? like if your scouting, and in stealth mode, do you only find things base don a radius which in turn is based on attributes? 

 

Also, it would definetly be neat to make more use of perception for looting. A keen eye, should be able to spot things quicker and faster, and even further.  And for those who like looting multiple things in a radius all at once, attributes should be able to extend that radius. But, it should still be optional. BG series still had the best loot system. A combination of what we have now, and what they did, showing what was dropped, would be even better. It would be a trend setter. 

 

On the latter note about loot,dropping mechanics, never make the mistake of having all articles of clothes nicely folded when dropped. Or make graphics that soon as you killed someone or something, the loot drops from mid-air wherever they are standing. Nothing more stupid then killing a giant beast and watching it magically turn into a pair of folded pants that start falling from the sky. Though, it almost reminds me of the first time a DM caught the group surprised with a wand of wonders. !0 minutes later we were in very large grass that was inside a dining room, shrunk to the size of a rodent while a very slow extra large deathknight was chasing us and trying to stomp on us. Meanwhile the thief in the party was running with a diamond half the size of his body that was moments earlier thrown form the wand at the deathknight... or something like that. 

[Kal Adan]

Loot markers are like other UI markers that tell me where to go/look; it takes the piss out of exploration, because I know up front what I can and cannot ignore.

If I don't have that knowledge then I have to pay [more] attention to the environment and examine it (by way of mouse hovering) more carefully for clues and interactable objects.

I have no problem with other people not wanting to play it in that kind of slow poke manner, as long as those obvious/unambiguous UI markers ["go here, do this"] are optional.

Oh well..

I don't mind this being optional, but the arguments you use are questionable at best, because they are very loosely tied to logic or practicality. Pixel-hunting is not same as exploration. It's pixel-hunting and missing a container just because you didn't want to use an item that highlights objects is as fun as ignoring help in adventure games when you're stuck due to missing a piece of the puzzle you were supposed to pick up. Some people might like it that way. I'd rather play the game.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Kal Adan

[dorkboy]

 

Loot markers are like other UI markers that tell me where to go/look; it takes the piss out of exploration, because I know up front what I can and cannot ignore.

If I don't have that knowledge then I have to pay [more] attention to the environment and examine it (by way of mouse hovering) more carefully for clues and interactable objects.

I have no problem with other people not wanting to play it in that kind of slow poke manner, as long as those obvious/unambiguous UI markers ["go here, do this"] are optional.

Oh well..

I don't mind this being optional, [...]

Then we seem to agree about that. In fact, the highlight key - as implemented in various games - seems to be one of those instances where 'make it optional' actually works, without leading to a whole lot of "split design" issues. Hopefully, the same can be true of those loot sparkles.

[Skolinkinlot]

Im amazed. Of ALL the MAJOR changes they've made away from the IE games.. this is the one that gets people up in arms.. astounding.

[Gfted1]

Whats the term thrown around when there are changes that people like? "Spiritual successor"? Just think of it like that and then nobody should be upset.

[Valsuelm]

Im amazed. Of ALL the MAJOR changes they've made away from the IE games.. this is the one that gets people up in arms.. astounding.

 

You've apparently not been reading the forums much these last two years, nor have ever read rpgcodex.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Valsuelm

[Sanquiz]

Make this optional, i want waste my time picking and missing loots!!! (in this way i can extend the gameplay some more hours).

 

i am serious, Is not joke or sarcasm.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Arturo Sanquiz

[Stun]

Im amazed. Of ALL the MAJOR changes they've made away from the IE games.. this is the one that gets people up in arms.. astounding.

What?

 

Changes from the IE games that people have gone ballistic over in PoE include the following (in no particular order):

 

1) The XP system

2) Per encounter wizard spells

3) Crafting

4) Lack of romances

5) Lack of a spell memorization system

6) The Engagement mechanic

7) Lack of rogue skills like pick pocketing

8.) Lack of Pre-buffing

9) The inventory system

10) The health and stamina system

11) The lack of healing spells

12) The lack of invisibility spells

 

 

Abbreviated list; Doesn't include everything. And there's been some give and take between the devs and the fanbase over the past couple of years with many of these designs. Make no mistake about this, PoE has been through the brutally strict Grognard Test of Validity™. The level of scrutiny of every single detail is probably more than what a normal person would consider even remotely fair, but the fact that the game has made it through and these same IE fans/Grognards are still intensely looking forward to playing this game speaks volumes.

Edited March 16, 2015 by Stun

[rjshae]

Area looting is probably a good feature to have for tablet versions of games. Just sayin'. Personally I won't miss looting masses of bodies from a large battle, particularly when each individual treasure is small.

[BKlooster]

I wanted to stop by and say that I am the programmer that worked on the area loot. I have added the area loot as a slider option in the game options. Barring any issues, this feature should make it in to the release build. The slider will go from 0m (the previous single looting mechanic) to 8m. The current area loot value is 4m.

[Sensuki]

Welcome to the team

[Mazisky]

I didn't care about area loot but i have to say it's nice they made it optional to satisfy all the audience, thumbs up

[Flow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKaXY4IdZ40&ab_channel=whitneyhoustonVEVO

[NegativeEdge]

I wanted to stop by and say that I am the programmer that worked on the area loot. I have added the area loot as a slider option in the game options. Barring any issues, this feature should make it in to the release build. The slider will go from 0m (the previous single looting mechanic) to 8m. The current area loot value is 4m.

An elegant little solution that keeps everybody happy?

 

[Stun]

I wanted to stop by and say that I am the programmer that worked on the area loot. I have added the area loot as a slider option in the game options. Barring any issues, this feature should make it in to the release build. The slider will go from 0m (the previous single looting mechanic) to 8m. The current area loot value is 4m.

Way to totally kill the discussion! Good job.

[Gairnulf]

I wanted to stop by and say that I am the programmer that worked on the area loot. I have added the area loot as a slider option in the game options. Barring any issues, this feature should make it in to the release build. The slider will go from 0m (the previous single looting mechanic) to 8m. The current area loot value is 4m.

This is the right thing to do. I hope that the decision was affected at least somewhat by the arguments I brought up, but who knows, maybe it was the plan from the beginning to make it optional.