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Doomed and tragic?

 

Well the whole narrative of Torment seemed rather tragic to me so I imagine the Romance implementation would be similar 

 

But it doesn't have to be that way, for example the whole Viconia Romance arc in BG2 I enjoyed. It started off where she was this very conflicted person of questionable morals. But I continued to Romance and support her and she ended up having my child...but sadly dying in childbirth  ;(

 

But the point being I enjoyed the challenges around following this type of  Romance arc and it wasn't  tragic or doomed. My character had a good life from his Viconia relationship :)

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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So in other words there are more people who want Romance in games like PoE than there are people who are opposed to them. You will see this when the many new fans of PoE start becoming active on these forums. This is something we need to recognize  :geek:

 

 

Ok I see what you mean. I think there is kind of a hierarchy of importance when it comes to rpg features, and I feel PC customization is a bit more important than being able to develop a romantic relationship with a companion, so I kinda bugged when you compared these two.

But yeah romances have a place in cRPGs. Some in Baldur's Gate 2 were not as cringeworthy as the recent ones EA likes to feature, but I don't think they brought anything to the character they concerned. I mean BG2 romances were nice because the concerned characters were well written, but it didn't add much to the character.

I have yet to see romances that actually matter in a crpg. Choosing a race/background/class for the PC however matters more imo. Hence it's more important.

But i don't have anything against romances, just to be clear about that. I just don't really care if there's none.

Edited by CaptainMace
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Qu'avez-vous fait de l'honneur de la patrie ?

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So in other words there are more people who want Romance in games like PoE than there are people who are opposed to them. You will see this when the many new fans of PoE start becoming active on these forums. This is something we need to recognize  :geek:

 

 

Ok I see what you mean. I think there is kind of a hierarchy of importance when it comes to rpg features, and I feel PC customization is a bit more important than being able to develop a romantic relationship with a companion, so I kinda bugged when you compared these two.

But yeah romances have a place in cRPGs. Some in Baldur's Gate 2 were not as cringeworthy as the recent ones EA likes to feature, but I don't think they brought anything to the character they concerned. I mean BG2 romances were nice because the concerned characters were well written, but it didn't add much to the character.

I have yet to see romances that actually matter in a crpg. Choosing a race/background/class for the PC however matters more imo. Hence it's more important.

 

 

Oh and don't get me wrong. Things like exciting dungeons to explore, the overall narrative and PC customization are more important than Romance IMO

 

Romance is really just as aspect of party interaction and only about 20% of that total interaction

 

But I am confident Obsidian will address all those things in PoE 1 so when I talk about the relevance of Romance I am talking about it  in PoE 2 because by then Obsidian will be looking at how to improve the PoE franchise and I'm sure Romance will rear its indomitable head and ask  " allow me to exist in PoE 2 "   :dancing:

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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*attempts to get thread back on topic*

 

So, which one of you is going to romance Angry Joe?

 :lol:

 

No he isnt my type 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Joe might have started out as a reviewer that was mostly reviewing XBox games but that has changed a lot since a couple of years now. So I do get how people get the impression of "hey ain't that the loud mouthed console guy that is olny review Tripple A games". But thoes times has long been gone and he did grow up not olny as a reviewer (he is way more professional now that he was say in like 2011) but he also is reviewing all sort of games down to the lesser known indie pc games. As for him comparing it to DD and DAI that was not him drawing that comparison but it was other Joe (the guy he likes to do streaming with and sometimes is beeing part of his reviews). Joe might not have played BG and IWD himself but he sure knows them. Fun fact even so DAI was ranking at number one on his "Top 10 Best games of 2014" video the third place did go to Divinity Original Sin (which IMHO most people can agree on that it was a rather solid entry to the CRPG genre to say the least). So its not like he never played a "real" CRPG.

 

And like it or not he does have his almost 2 million subs for a good reason. Because he is known to be the type of reviewer that is very hard on the games but always fair and he is mixing in a lot of humor into his reviews. Also he has a very hard time hiding his true feelings about a game no matter if he is all hyped for it or disappointed with a game. And for that fact alone I prefer him to most other reviewers out there. If a game gets him truely excited he is more than willing to go the extra mile for it to promote to the best of his abilities. So he also does not shy away from stomping your game into the ground and rip it to pieces if it is bad or if he think its disappointing (no matter how big of a name the game has or the publisher behind it). In short him liking the game is simply great because he is the kinda guy that can get someone excited for a game simply because of how excited he is talking about it.

 

P.S. On a more personal note I think one of the main reason why so many people like him for his reviews is because he pretty much is like the Donald Duck of the game reviewers (and that is meant as a huge compliment). By that I mean that the more excited and/or angry he gets the more hilarious he gets. Donald makes you laugh because the more angry he gets the funnier his outbursts do get. Also people can easily relate to Donald because he pretty much is your kind of "average working dude" that gets into the most hilarious situations (mostly) by no fault of its own. And IMHO the same can be said about Angry Joe.

Edited by Spike Spiegel 28
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"Jet, do you know that there are three things I particularly hate......Kids, animals, and women with attitude. SO CAN YOU TELL ME WHY WE HAVE ALL THREE NEATLY GATHERED ON OUR SHIP!"

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Also protip: the guy reviews tons of RPG's. Trust me when I say he may look sort of dumb and goofy, and may have a hard time starting out, but he will figure out the mechanics, and he will be just as good at the game once he has a understanding of them as any average "hard core CRPG" fan is likely to be.

I don't hate Joe or anything, but you're talking about the guy who complained endlessly because in Alpha Protocol he kept missing when shooting with a pistol from long distance without realising it was a shor/medium range weapon and that the shooting mechanics relied heavily on stats....

 

Maybe he has improved since then, though.

There's also a good argument to be made that the shooting mechanics in AP were terrible and the presentation of the game gave completely the wrong impression about how much player ability factored in.

 

I thought that the reactivity in that game made it great, I'll never knock someone for criticising the gameplay, it's a pretty much justified complaint.

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Also protip: the guy reviews tons of RPG's. Trust me when I say he may look sort of dumb and goofy, and may have a hard time starting out, but he will figure out the mechanics, and he will be just as good at the game once he has a understanding of them as any average "hard core CRPG" fan is likely to be.

I don't hate Joe or anything, but you're talking about the guy who complained endlessly because in Alpha Protocol he kept missing when shooting with a pistol from long distance without realising it was a shor/medium range weapon and that the shooting mechanics relied heavily on stats....

 

Maybe he has improved since then, though.

There's also a good argument to be made that the shooting mechanics in AP were terrible and the presentation of the game gave completely the wrong impression about how much player ability factored in.

 

I thought that the reactivity in that game made it great, I'll never knock someone for criticising the gameplay, it's a pretty much justified complaint.

 

yea, as a game AP sucked pretty hard in may aspects, as a story it shines so brightly

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Torment did a good job at making Romance more realistic and believable ?

Torment didn't have romances.

 

 

That.. arguably has to do with what one considers a "romance". It definitely had some potential romantic tension, but nothing I would consider a romance as it has come to be in games that underlines romances as some kind of ridiculous "feature".

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Torment did a good job at making Romance more realistic and believable ?

Torment didn't have romances.

 

 

That depends on your definition what romance is, but Torment had romantic tones and references in people's relationships with Nameless One in it, but it didn't have similar nearly mini-game like romantic relationships that Bioware uses in its games these days.

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Part of what problem?

 

 

The problem of games being "dumbed down" or "consolised" or whatever buzzword is being used at the moment. If there is some perceived platonic ideal of the average gamer who likes X and won't put up with Y then a lot of companies won't risk venturing outside that narrow band of concepts they are afforded by that. If people keep parroting that idea then it becomes "accepted wisdom" and people don't see any point challenging it. The world is more complicated though so if we can try to avoid relying on lazy stereotypes and be more inclusive of consumers and creators in this industry then we can get rid of these toxic ideas.

 

Or we could just sit in our ivory towers and look down in disgust at all the console peasants who are so dumb as to enjoy playing games with less mechanical complexity than we do and tip our fedoras to each other.

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That depends on your definition what romance is, but Torment had romantic tones and references in people's relationships with Nameless One in it, but it didn't have similar nearly mini-game like romantic relationships that Bioware uses in its games these days.

Of course it depends on one's definition of what an RPG romance is. But that's really not saying anything. It's like going to McDonalds, ordering a bag of fries and then telling everyone that McDonalds serves 'French cuisine'.

 

 

No. Broadening the definition of romances so that one can cite great RPG classics like Planescape Torment and say: "See? the best written games have them!" Does not fly with me.

Edited by Stun
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The problem of games being "dumbed down" or "consolised" or whatever buzzword is being used at the moment. If there is some perceived platonic ideal of the average gamer who likes X and won't put up with Y then a lot of companies won't risk venturing outside that narrow band of concepts they are afforded by that. If people keep parroting that idea then it becomes "accepted wisdom" and people don't see any point challenging it. The world is more complicated though so if we can try to avoid relying on lazy stereotypes and be more inclusive of consumers and creators in this industry then we can get rid of these toxic ideas.

 

Or we could just sit in our ivory towers and look down in disgust at all the console peasants who are so dumb as to enjoy playing games with less mechanical complexity than we do and tip our fedoras to each other.

This is not a philosophical/debatable issue. We're dealing with plain old objective statistics. Statistics that game studios and their marketing firms intensively follow when creating games.

 

Skyrim sold 20 million copies while Baldurs Gate 2 only sold about 2 million. Care to guess why this is?

Edited by Stun
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Romance thread for you chaps discussing the subject: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/69574-the-official-romance-thread/

 

Please don't thank me, i'm far too insular, toxic and probematic because of my choice of games and critics.

 

Not the Britney Spears Toxic however, as I must admit i'm quite a capable baritone, and have some musical talent.

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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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That depends on your definition what romance is, but Torment had romantic tones and references in people's relationships with Nameless One in it, but it didn't have similar nearly mini-game like romantic relationships that Bioware uses in its games these days.

Of course it depends on one's definition of what an RPG romance is. But that's really not saying anything. It's like going to McDonalds, ordering a bag of fries and then telling everyone that McDonalds serves 'French cuisine'.

 

 

No. Broadening the definition of romances so that one can cite great RPG classics like Planescape Torment and say: "See? the best written games have them!" Does not fly with me.

 

 

In this case in my opinion you try narrow what romance means, so that you can say that PS:T didn't had one. But anyway it is really quite meaningless in any way if everybody involved thinks that how PS:T handled things was good and would like see replication of it.

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Also Annah and Nameless One kissed, too. That's as romancey as it can get.

:::shakes head:::

 

What the hell is wrong with you people? I kissed my mother last week. Doesn't mean I'm romancing her. You can't romance Annah in PS:T any more than you can Romance Dakkon.

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This is not a philosophical/debatable issue. We're dealing with plain old objective statistics. Statistics that game studios and their marketing firms intensively follow when creating games.

 

Skyrim sold 20 million copies while Baldurs Gate 2 only sold about 2 million. Care to guess why this is?

 

 

Well Baldur's Gate 2 was a PC game based on a tabletop RPG that was released in 2000. Skyrim was a multiplatform game released over a decade later with a multimillion dollar marketing budget.

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This is not a philosophical/debatable issue. We're dealing with plain old objective statistics. Statistics that game studios and their marketing firms intensively follow when creating games.

 

Skyrim sold 20 million copies while Baldurs Gate 2 only sold about 2 million. Care to guess why this is?

 

 

Well Baldur's Gate 2 was a PC game based on a tabletop RPG that was released in 2000. Skyrim was a multiplatform game released over a decade later with a multimillion dollar marketing budget.

 

 

Not to consider that videogames business\market now is a lot larger than 15 years ago, this means that an hypothetical Skyrim on 2000 would've sold no more than 2 millions copy

Edited by Mazisky
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I believe the only thing positive about the OP video is that someone like Joe, who is mostly a AAA guy, found Darkest Dungeon and PoE great games, despite their non-blockbustery look.

The mainstream-ish success of other "low" budget games like Divinity: Original Sin or Wasteland 2 or the many indie platform games shows that people who play games are not just "the knowing what's great/art" elite and the "mindless" FPS bros. This goes for all forms of entertainment - Movies, theater, music, board games, sports etc.

People might like a mix of everything.

 

So, ok Joe saw a game and liked it; who cares? I mean ok, Paradox (now, since Obsidian made them their publishers) might be interested, because some of Joe's "minions" might check the game. They'll make money out of it, so it makes sense. To the rest of us... don't know... I couldn't care enough.

Do you believe more games like this will be made because Joe said he liked PoE? I don't believe so. Companies start to make games like these because people from the development side (like Schaffer, Fargo, Solomon, Almost Human games etc) said "ok, I want to make again games like the 90's in a modern way. Who's in?" or just took the risk to make them and they succeeded. People liked these games because they were good games. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

The rest is celebritism and people over-exaggerating/acting over trivial things - like video games.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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Also Annah and Nameless One kissed, too. That's as romancey as it can get.

:::shakes head:::

 

What the hell is wrong with you people? I kissed my mother last week. Doesn't mean I'm romancing her. You can't romance Annah in PS:T any more than you can Romance Dakkon.

 

I certainly hope you don't use tongue while kissing your mother. I also hope you don't playfully bite her and I certainly hope she doesn't bite back. 

 

Just saying. 

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