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This isn't the first time Angry Joe has gotten a lot of hate on this forum.  Yes he was cursing a lot, no he wasn't super professional in this video.  But he sure did sound excited for the game, said it was the best game at the Paradox Con (if he is a console fanboy why is he at the Paradox con again?  Oh wait... he isn't a console fanboy), and was complimentary of Josh even if he forgot his last name.

 

You guys may be too good for him, but he has 2 mil subs and if he says the game is good that will equal more sales.  Also protip: the guy reviews tons of RPG's.  Trust me when I say he may look sort of dumb and goofy, and may have a hard time starting out, but he will figure out the mechanics, and he will be just as good at the game once he has a understanding of them as any average "hard core CRPG" fan is likely to be.

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Some games have limitations due to this wider spread of audiences and consoles not being able to do everything and that can be a bummer.

Yeah. THIS. And...not anything else you've said on this thread.

 

The fact of the matter is that when it comes to CRPGs, the broader the target audience, the more limited and watered down the RPG will be. And must be. Because average gamers don't like to read, don't like to focus on anything beyond the visual, don't like rule set complexity, and most importantly they won't be entertained by gameplay that is designed to be more of a cerebral experience than an adrenaline rush.

 

We all want PoE to be as financially successful as possible. But there's a huge difference between wishing that the game does well, and wishing that it be designed to target the mainstream masses so that it sells a bajillion copies, like Mass Effect and Skyrim and other large-target-audience-RPGs.

 

And this is precisely why I look at this Angry Joe Preview and rejoice. He might help this game sell well despite it not being targeted/designed towards his core viewership.

Edited by Stun
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Eh, the market has changed a lot since the old days. I think the success of games like Darkest Dungeon shows there's more of an appetite than you might think for old-school, hard-core, seriously challenging RPG's. The PC game market has aged a lot in the past decade and it's grown up in the process and I think the success of the first Dragon Age game shows there's actually a huge market for this type of game -- tactical map RPG's in the spirit of the IE games and the old Gold Box games. Hell, the Gold Box games were massively successful in their day. It's just that 1) there was a ten year or so period where fancy 3d graphics were GOD, and 2) there's an industry myth that nobody wants these games so nobody's making them and it's become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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Some games have limitations due to this wider spread of audiences and consoles not being able to do everything and that can be a bummer.

Yeah. THIS. And...not anything else you've said on this thread.The fact of the matter is that when it comes to CRPGs, the broader the target audience, the more limited and watered down the RPG will be. And must be. Because average gamers don't like to read, don't like to focus on anything beyond the visual, don't like rule set complexity, and most importantly they won't be entertained by gameplay that is designed to be more of a cerebral experience than an adrenaline rush.We all want PoE to be as financially successful as possible. But there's a huge difference between wishing that the game does well, and wishing that it be designed to target the mainstream masses so that it sells a bajillion copies, like Mass Effect and Skyrim and other large-target-audience-RPGs.And this is precisely why I look at this Angry Joe Preview and rejoice. He might help this game sell well despite it not being targeted/designed towards his core viewership.

Haha. Somehow, now I can't get this image of Angry Joe as the Anthony Kennedy of video game reviewers, for whom it's key to win over.

"Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin.

"P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle

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Where's that Roguey quote...

 

"If you were disappointed with BioWare's Dragon Age Inquisition, boy is Josh Sawyer's Pillars of Eternity the game for you"

 

Something like that anyway.

I think this is a rather petty quote. 

 

Why single out DA:I? Because it's the popular Hate Game at the moment. There has not been a game like PoE in quite some time. 

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Ok the idea that he's comparing it to Darkest Dungeon because that's the only other RPG he's played is just ludicrously comic to me. Sometimes I forget just how few RPG's have been made in the past couple decades, especially if you discount FPS's like Mass Effect.

 

I mean, hell, the guy seems decent enough, it's just hilarious that this guy heard of Darkest Dungeon but not Pillars.

 

He has heard about PoE before he ever heard about Darkest Dungeons, as he interviewed BAdler at E3 2014 about it, but Darkest Dungeons was several days steam's best selling game and it is popular with twitch streamers and youtubers, so it is probably much better known game with his viewers than Pillars of Eternity, at least until PoE actually comes out. 

 

Yeah I guess I can see that it's just a funny juxtaposition because I think of Obsidian as major industry players and Darkest Dungeon as a scrappy upstart. Don't get me wrong I love Darkest Dungeon and backed it also but the idea that it's more high-profile than PoE is sortof hilarious to me, even though I guess right now it's true. It's like if someone introduced Peyton Manning by comparing him to this year's Heisman winner. Or the time I saw "If you like [Robert Jordan], you might also like  [J.R.R. Tolkien]" on a bookstore shelf.

 

It's more high-profile because it (Darkest Dungeon) is on Early Access on Steam and it has been streamed, uploaded, and I've seen on TotalBiscuit's twitter several mentions, Jim Sterling has mentioned it (and played it too I think?), NorthernLion has played it as well (I think?).

 

Darkest Dungeon has had way more exposure in the modern marketing platform (YouTube) and even on Steam.

 

People used to go into physical stores and do window shopping. Today they go into digital stores (such as Steam) to do window shopping. Pillars of Eternity, albeit having been visible as a pre-order product, is not playable right away for the average Steam customer right away, and thus won't radiate as much exposure.

 

It's not odd that Darkest Dungeon is more high-profile, from how the market works today.

 

I understand you have your own perspective, but you have to consider people who don't have your perspective or experience or viewpoint, who have no idea of these forums or about Kickstarter or about anything about Pillars of Eternity and it's been in the shadows of their radar, but might be an avid and enthustiastic gamer and did play all the Infinity Engine games previously. There's tons and tons more people than some 74'000 backers out there who bought and played Baldur's Gate after all.

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I was impressed with Angry Joes opinion of PoE, it  may have  been uninformed around the history of CRPG but I don't think you need to have played CRPG to appreciate PoE

 

He also helps increase visibility around the game to an audience that may not have ever heard of BG or IWD so I am very supportive of these types of reviews. He also seems like a really nice guy ( I just wish he wouldn't use so much profanity )

 

One thing is clear though, once the game is released there will a deluge of many new  people who will coming to these forums who don't know much about the background and history of PoE. And they will come with a large number of suggestions and ideas that may not seem appropriate but we need to be patient around why PoE was designed a certain way. Remember we want the interest in PoE to grow and become a real option for developers and the best way to do this is to get the younger gamers interested

 

Plus I imagine new gamers  will also be interested in Romance so  the promancer army will have many new recruits to spread the message  :dancing:

Edited by BruceVC
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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The only romancin' we like round these parts is necromancin'

 :lol:

 

Funny

 

But you guys need to realize and accept that there will definitely be an element of new fans drawn to PoE who will expect Romance and question why it doesn't exist. We need to be welcoming around these types of discussions  :wub:

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Romance has a place in games, at least *~in a perfect world~* but in games of this type it is inevitably awkward and juvenile. People may ask why there is no romance in this game, well because the developers didn't see a need for it in the story they were creating. Better to have no romances than one shoved in because that's what you do.

 

I'm sure you can have some great bromances in any case. Just because you don't sleep with your friends or talk about mushy stuff doesn't mean you can't love them after all.

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Just so you know, this kind of attitude is much douchier and poisonous to the "gaming community" than some guy who plays Halo or whatever arbitrary line you are drawing in the sand. If you love games then you should be happy that all kinds of people are getting into them which will lead to new viewpoints and experiences in games that we've missed out on due to the insular nature of the business until fairly recently.

 

Remember the wise words of the philosophers Bill S. Preston Esq. and Ted "Theodore" Logan:

 

1. Be Excellent To One Another

2. Party On Dudes

 

So lets all have fun playing games together and not be horrible little gremlins hiding in our clubhouses with "NO GIRLS OR JOCKS ALLOWED" signs next to the door.

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Romance has a place in games, at least *~in a perfect world~* but in games of this type it is inevitably awkward and juvenile. People may ask why there is no romance in this game, well because the developers didn't see a need for it in the story they were creating. Better to have no romances than one shoved in because that's what you do.

 

I'm sure you can have some great bromances in any case. Just because you don't sleep with your friends or talk about mushy stuff doesn't mean you can't love them after all.

 

I hear you but the same argument about other features that have been left out could be used and I doubt that would be acceptable 

 

So for example lets say Obsidian decided not to have different races in PoE that you choose in the beginning for your character. The argument from Obsidian could be " we only have one race to select for your character as we didn't see a need for it in the story" 

 

Most people and KS funders wouldn't be happy with this and would encourage Obsidian to change their view on this for a variety of reasons. The same consideration needs to be given to Romance :)

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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This is a nice feel-good philosophy (with which I generally agree), but the animosity of Luckmann and others has a specific source. Attempting to appease console gamers and casual gamers in the making of PC-RPGs has had a clear impact on them over the last decade or more. Dumbing down and choosing flash over substance because of console limitations and casual gamers who need floaty quest markers and achievements, and who care more about how detailed their character's hair is than they do about being able to define that character or about the story or mechanics of the game, has created a group of fans with no games made that they really enjoy. So, I agree that it doesn't do much good to throw around insults and I hope this Joe guy has a fun time with the game, but I don't have any interest in isometric, party-based, western CRPGs (or any CRPGs to be honest, but I'm mostly concerned with this subgenre in particular) being any further corrupted by the desires of casual gamers and console gamers. The result of that corruption/change, call it whatever you like, is every AAA RPG to come out for the last ten years and they can happily go play DA:I, The Witcher 3 for their mainstream gaming needs. So I don't really care who loves this game, the more the merrier, so long as they love it for what it is and Obsidian and other companies don't repeat the mistakes of the past and start trying to broaden the target audience of their RPGs and destroying them in the process.

 

All that being said, hopefully everyone will party on and at least try to be excellent to one another.

 

Some games have limitations due to this wider spread of audiences and consoles not being able to do everything and that can be a bummer.

Yeah. THIS. And...not anything else you've said on this thread.

 

The fact of the matter is that when it comes to CRPGs, the broader the target audience, the more limited and watered down the RPG will be. And must be. Because average gamers don't like to read, don't like to focus on anything beyond the visual, don't like rule set complexity, and most importantly they won't be entertained by gameplay that is designed to be more of a cerebral experience than an adrenaline rush.

 

We all want PoE to be as financially successful as possible. But there's a huge difference between wishing that the game does well, and wishing that it be designed to target the mainstream masses so that it sells a bajillion copies, like Mass Effect and Skyrim and other large-target-audience-RPGs.

 

And this is precisely why I look at this Angry Joe Preview and rejoice. He might help this game sell well despite it not being targeted/designed towards his core viewership.

 

I really don't have anything else to say on the topic that hasn't already been said by these two posts, but since I was targeted, I think it's only appropriate that I quote them for truth.

 

Thinking there is such a thing as the "average gamer" who doesn't like X is part of the problem.

 

Why would this be a problem?

 

There are averages of everything, and it's defined by being average. This is literally what the word means and how we use it. And the most common way to appeal to the common peasant is by finding the lowest common denominator that ties the average gamers together, and push it. This is why people eat McDonalds, despite all of these average Joes knowing that McDonalds is terrible and McDonalds barely qualifying as food; because when it comes to it, the average has the lowest common denominator of enjoying fat, sugar, and salt.

 

So to appeal to the average, you reduce it all to fat, sugar, and salt. There's a key demographic that enjoys ruccola? Tough ****. Pineapple in burgers? Don't be ridiculous, that's not cost-effective.

 

And the gaming industry has truly turned into a churning industry of feel-good manure, shuffling slop for the troughs, all the way from programmer-farms in a corporate basement to the legions of facebook housewives everywhere and the new generation of self-professed-"nerd" airheads.

 

In order to appeal to the average gamer - or the average anything - quality will always be compromised.

 

Anything quality will always be niche, if for no other reason than the subjective nature of appeal, and any culture worth it's salt will be naturally insular and selective, or it will fall victim to it's own dismantling. I realize it sounds hyperbolic, but console peasantry and mass appeal has all but ruined PC Gaming irrevocably, and up until very recently, some of us have endured nothing short of a decade-long dark age.

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Love Angry Joe, he puts some of him in his videos and I respect that.
But yeah no I won't take note of his opinion :D Although It'd be really really cool to emulate some sort of more popular interest for Pillars of Eternity.

 

 

Then PoE will be a massive success, EA will buy Obsidian out and they'll release Mass Effect Alpha Protocol 2, which features new romances in which you can hug your teammates in a lot of awkward ways.

 

 

Most people and KS funders wouldn't be happy with this and would encourage Obsidian to change their view on this for a variety of reasons. The same consideration needs to be given to Romance

Your reasoning is flawed.

If there was only one race, people would be mad indeed.
There are no romances and people aren't that mad at all.
But you tell us that we should be, or pretend to be, for the sake of a flawed comparision...

:blink:

Edited by CaptainMace
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Qu'avez-vous fait de l'honneur de la patrie ?

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Love Angry Joe, he puts some of him in his videos and I respect that.

But yeah no I won't take note of his opinion :D Although It'd be really really cool to emulate some sort of more popular interest for Pillars of Eternity.

 

 

Then PoE will be a massive success, EA will buy Obsidian out and they'll release Mass Effect Alpha Protocol 2, which features new romances in which you can hug your teammates in a lot of awkward ways.

 

 

Most people and KS funders wouldn't be happy with this and would encourage Obsidian to change their view on this for a variety of reasons. The same consideration needs to be given to Romance

Your reasoning is flawed.

If there was only one race, people would be mad indeed.

There are no romances and people aren't that mad at all.

But you tell us that we should be, or pretend to be, for the sake of a flawed comparision...

:blink:

I'm not telling you personally what features in PoE should matter

 

Its appears you are telling me that Romance doesn't matter. But this is just your  view. There are many people that like and really appreciate Romance in RPG. And people shouldn't have to get mad to mean something is significant in a RPG. It could just be a suggestion, no need for anger. But it doesn't mean there suggestions aren't valid 

 

So in other words there are more people who want Romance in games like PoE than there are people who are opposed to them. You will see this when the many new fans of PoE start becoming active on these forums. This is something we need to recognize  :geek:

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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We promancers are gentle people, and prefer to gently remind folk that romances indeed have their place in RPG's. Also, this myth about romances having to be juvenile needs to stop. Any narrative can be juvenile, regardless of topic. 

 

Exactly, any component of a game can be implemented in a way that is juvenile. When we talk about Romance we are assuming that Obsidian has more than enough talent to do it properly ...or at least in a way that is not reminiscent to early Bioware type Romance like DA:O   

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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 Also protip: the guy reviews tons of RPG's.  Trust me when I say he may look sort of dumb and goofy, and may have a hard time starting out, but he will figure out the mechanics, and he will be just as good at the game once he has a understanding of them as any average "hard core CRPG" fan is likely to be.

I don't hate Joe or anything, but you're talking about the guy who complained endlessly because in Alpha Protocol he kept missing when shooting with a pistol from long distance without realising it was a shor/medium range weapon and that the shooting mechanics relied heavily on stats....

 

Maybe he has improved since then, though.

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I just remembered the "romances" in Neverwinter Nights 2 and laughed internally, they were pretty crazy. I did like the stuff in Mask of the Betrayer though, I liked the goal being to learn more about your companions and increase your bond with them rather than to get a sexy fade to black.

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I just remembered the "romances" in Neverwinter Nights 2 and laughed internally, they were pretty crazy. I did like the stuff in Mask of the Betrayer though, I liked the goal being to learn more about your companions and increase your bond with them rather than to get a sexy fade to black.

 

I agree with you that there are many examples of questionable examples of  " bad Romance " 

 

But I think most promancers are not after the bad implementations of past Romance, like giving presents to gain affection and those awkward filmed  scenes with party members in lingerie before you have sex with them

 

We see Romance as a way to build a more memorable relationship with party members and to make the overall interaction with party members more immersive.

 

Torment did a good job at making Romance more realistic and believable ?

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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