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Romance in a RPG doesn't have to mean sex. Its the courting process and getting to know the NPC that is important. So in Torment I do consider the dialogue with both Annah and Grace a form of Romance. As mentioned by others there is no doubt there was sexual innuendo and I was really under the impression that the relationship would develop so I had this "Romance mind-set" during my interaction with them

Oh? Can you describe to me the courting process of Annah (or Grace) In PS:T?

 

No wait. Allow me.

 

Annah: You stink. And I've never seen anyone so ugly.

TNO: :::Kisses Annah::::

Annah: Are you daft?

TNO: Admit it, you liked it!

Annah: Get away from me! You're making my demonic blood boil! (literally. Permanent +5% fire resistance)

 

And then.... Nothing. Nothing at all. No courting for the rest of the game. Maybe some thief training though...which she vocally resents.

 

------

 

TNO: Hey grace? What are your feelings about me?

Grace: Not saying.

TNO: Oh come on.

Grace. Nope. But Dakkon...man, he's got impressive combat skills!

TNO: Ok then, can I read your diary?

Grace: Nope.

TNO: nevermind then.

 

 

Ok, Bruce. This is your definition of Romance/courtship in an RPG? Really? You're basically stretching the definition of romance so that any non-combat scenario = Romance. I rest my case.

 

Edit: I have good news for you, Sir Stretch. Despite what the devs have said, PoE will have Romances. In fact, the Beta we've played already has 2 of them. Rejoice!

Edited by Stun
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Romance in a RPG doesn't have to mean sex. Its the courting process and getting to know the NPC that is important. So in Torment I do consider the dialogue with both Annah and Grace a form of Romance. As mentioned by others there is no doubt there was sexual innuendo and I was really under the impression that the relationship would develop so I had this "Romance mind-set" during my interaction with them

Oh? Can you describe to me the courting process of Annah (or Grace) In PS:T?

 

No wait. Allow me.

 

Annah: You stink. And I've never seen anyone so ugly.

TNO: :::Kisses Annah::::

Annah: Are you daft?

TNO: Admit it, you liked it!

Annah: Get away from me! You're making my demonic blood boil! (literally. Permanent +5% fire resistance)

 

And then.... Nothing. Nothing at all. No courting for the rest of the game. Maybe some thief training though...which she vocally resents.

 

------

 

TNO: Hey grace? What are your feelings about me?

Grace: Not saying.

TNO: Oh come on.

Grace. Nope.

TNO: Ok then, can I read your diary?

Grace: Nope.

TNO: nevermind then.

 

 

Ok, Bruce. This is your definition of Romance/courtship in an RPGs? Really? Then I rest my case. You promancers will stretch the definition of romance so that any non-combat scenario = Romance. Well I have good news for you. PoE will have Romances. In fact, the Beta we've played already has 2 of them. Rejoice!

 

 

 

Well the development of a Romance arc can be nuanced and sometimes yes it may be difficult to say " this is Romance " but remember end of the day it really becomes a subjective interpretation in certain games.

 

If you think about one of the core reasons why  we play RPG is because we like to RP, this may sound obvious but I think sometimes this is overlooked. So every single one of us will have a different experience when we play RPG around how we react and define certain game components . This experience is obviously on different levels...so for example I read the dialogue with both Annah and Grace as the prelude to Romance. I never knew that  " normal Romance"  wouldn't happen. But it didn't change the fact that my experience was " Romance based" 

 

It would be the same as someone who said he liked Torment because of the depressing and doomed narrative....I didn't see the story completely  like this but I can understand why others might have :)

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I never thought Angry Joe would lead to a discussion about romance.

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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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"The romantic NPC should be picky, it's obvious he/she has high standards. In Planescape: Torment, we made it pretty clear that Annah and Fall-From-Grace didn't express interest in just anyone, and the player was the only one out of thousands that ever piqued their interest."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-79-blog-o-romance/

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"Things are funny...are comedic, because they mix the real with the absurd." - Buzz Aldrin.

"P-O-T-A-T-O-E" - Dan Quayle

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"The romantic NPC should be picky, it's obvious he/she has high standards. In Planescape: Torment, we made it pretty clear that Annah and Fall-From-Grace didn't express interest in just anyone, and the player was the only one out of thousands that ever piqued their interest."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-79-blog-o-romance/

 

 

 

 

Sorry Stun, I can empathize with you and how you must be feeling. There are very few things worse during a debate when  we say something like " prove it, I don't believe it " and someone actually finds some obscure link or proof that makes our previous opinion   wrong...the only consolation I can give you is that happens to all of us 

 

:teehee:

Edited by BruceVC
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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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"The romantic NPC should be picky, it's obvious he/she has high standards. In Planescape: Torment, we made it pretty clear that Annah and Fall-From-Grace didn't express interest in just anyone, and the player was the only one out of thousands that ever piqued their interest."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-79-blog-o-romance/

 

 

 

 

Sorry Stun, I can empathize with you and how you must be feeling. There are very few things worse during a debate we say something like " prove it, I don't believe it " and someone actually finds some obscure link or proof that makes our previous opinion   wrong...the only consolation I can give you is that happens to all of us 

 

:teehee:

 

 

Not me.

t50aJUd.jpg

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@Stun

 

I might add the promancer movement isn't saying that the game needs to have romance options in order to have a deep and meaning narrative. What we're arguing is having the option to romance creates an even deeper narrative opportunity. When talking about older games and characters, I'm always able to remember who I romanced before most anything else. 

 

It also tends to affect my gameplay. When a LI has an opinion about something that comes up, it can make me take a direction that I otherwise wouldn't have. Companion interaction is important to me in RPG's.

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Geeze, that wasn't even the link I was gonna give.

There's dozens of Chris Avellone quotes there. And not a single one of them mentions an Annah Romance, a Fall-From-Grace Romance, or a "love triangle with the Nameless One." Good Job! Edited by Stun
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"The romantic NPC should be picky, it's obvious he/she has high standards. In Planescape: Torment, we made it pretty clear that Annah and Fall-From-Grace didn't express interest in just anyone, and the player was the only one out of thousands that ever piqued their interest."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-79-blog-o-romance/

 

^So they have a crush on TNO. A crush that for Grace goes completely unrealized, and for Annah goes unrealized until she dies. That's ego stroking, not romance. And it's a theme in PS:T. PS:T is filled to the gills with exactly that type of "TNO is the only one who gets my interest."

 

 

Dakkon answers only to the Nameless one; Ignus will teach no one but the Nameless one. No one can motivate and lead Nordom but the Nameless one. Ingress' teeth only respond to the nameless one. Fell worships the Nameless one and builds an entire studio in TNO's Honor and no one else (are you going to argue that There's a Fell romance in PS:T?

Edited by Stun
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I never thought Angry Joe would lead to a discussion about romance.

Clearly you haven't watched his Dragon Age 2 review.

 

^So they have a crush on TNO. A crush that for Grace goes completely unrealized, and for Annah goes unrealized until she dies. That's ego stroking, not romance. And it's a theme in PS:T. PS:T is filled to the gills with exactly that type of "TNO is the only one who gets my interest."

Dakkon answers only to the Nameless one; Ignus will teach no one but the Nameless one. No one can motivate and lead Nordom but the Nameless one. Ingress' teeth only respond to the nameless one. Fell worships the Nameless one and builds an entire studio in TNO's Honor and no one else (are you going to argue that There's a Fell romance in PS:T?

I do find it funny how every post you guys make in this thread reminds me why I find it so confusing anyone thinks Torment's story is good, or that the NPC's were interesting and well rounded.

Edited by Karkarov
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@Stun

 

I might add the promancer movement isn't saying that the game needs to have romance options in order to have a deep and meaning narrative. What we're arguing is having the option to romance creates an even deeper narrative opportunity. When talking about older games and characters, I'm always able to remember who I romanced before most anything else. 

 

It also tends to affect my gameplay. When a LI has an opinion about something that comes up, it can make me take a direction that I otherwise wouldn't have. Companion interaction is important to me in RPG's.

 

And all I am asking is that you actually play Pillars of Eternity and see how the NPCs go.  Give it a chance.  Until we actually have something in that regard I do not understand the whole debate.  I mean hundreds and hundreds of pages of posts debating the possibility the game may or may not need romance without actually having anything to talk about is strange to me.  Again we do not even know what exactly Obsidian means by 'no romance' until we get our hands on it.

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"The romantic NPC should be picky, it's obvious he/she has high standards. In Planescape: Torment, we made it pretty clear that Annah and Fall-From-Grace didn't express interest in just anyone, and the player was the only one out of thousands that ever piqued their interest."

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/1/entry-79-blog-o-romance/

 

^So they have a crush on TNO. A crush that for Grace goes completely unrealized, and for Annah goes unrealized until she dies. That's ego stroking, not romance. And it's a theme in PS:T. PS:T is filled to the gills with exactly that type of "TNO is the only one who gets my interest."

 

 

Dakkon answers only to the Nameless one; Ignus will teach no one but the Nameless one. No one can motivate and lead Nordom but the Nameless one. Ingress' teeth only respond to the nameless one. Fell worships the Nameless one and builds an entire studio in TNO's Honor and no one else (are you going to argue that There's a Fell romance in PS:T?

 

 

In that they aren't any different from romances or any other companion characters that Bioware has produced. Ego stroking is one main purpose of companion characters, as that will make player feel that his character is important, loved, hated, liked, honored, feared, worshiped, etc.. So I would say say that by reasoning you give there is no romance in any of the Bioware's RPGs either like there is not any in PS:T.

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In that they aren't any different from romances or any other companion characters that Bioware has produced. Ego stroking is one main purpose of companion characters, as that will make player feel that his character is important, loved, hated, liked, honored, feared, worshiped, etc.. So I would say say that by reasoning you give there is no romance in any of the Bioware's RPGs either like there is not any in PS:T.

Oh right. Right. They're the same as Bioware Romances. I forgot. Just like Leliana, Morrigan, Isabela, Fenris, Anders, Viconia, Jahiera, Anomen, Merril, and Aerie, Grace and Annah will ego stroke you by sleeping with you...and.... telling you that they love you...and.... Engaging in a give and take "us" discussion with you....and.... telling others in your party that they love you.... And the game will give you a choice to go down that narrative path, or reject it outright.

 

Oh wait. That doesn't happen with Annah or Grace in PS:T. None of it does. Ever.

 

 

Edit: It's noteworthy to point out that even when you're talking to Ravel, and she demands that you tell her how you feel about Grace and Annah, you still don't get the option to say: "I love them"....only that you could love them.

Edited by Stun
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Or his Witcher 2 review lol

Make no mistake about this, Angry Joe is a Promancer to the nth degree.

That video is hilarious for a number of reasons.  I had to admit the funniest part considering this thread is at the end.... where he makes it clear he reviewed it on PC and even tells you the PC version is the one you want to buy if your PC meets the specs.  I thought he was a console fanboy?

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In that they aren't any different from romances or any other companion characters that Bioware has produced. Ego stroking is one main purpose of companion characters, as that will make player feel that his character is important, loved, hated, liked, honored, feared, worshiped, etc.. So I would say say that by reasoning you give there is no romance in any of the Bioware's RPGs either like there is not any in PS:T.

Oh right. Right. They're the same as Bioware Romances. I forgot. Just like Leliana, Morrigan, Isabela, Fenris, Anders, Viconia, Jahiera, Anomen, Merril, and Aerie, Grace and Annah will ego stroke you by sleeping with you...and.... telling you that they love you...and.... telling others in your party that they love you.... And the game will give you a choice to reciprocate that line of thinking, or reject it outright.

 

Oh wait. That doesn't happen with Annah or Grace in PS:T. Ever.

 

 

Edit: It's noteworthy to point out that even when you're talking to Ravel, and she demands that you tell her how you feel about Grace and Annah, you still don't get the option to say: "I love them"....only that you could love them.

 

 

Yes they are same from ego stroking perspective, they are written differently and they have different content, but you argued that Annah and Fall-from-Grace aren't romances because they are ego stroking like other characters in PS:T, which is why I pointed out that Bioware's characters are same way designed to stroke player's ego and I tried to show why your argument about something being ego stroking means that it can't be ego stroking is silly.

 

But anyway I am not here to convince you that there was romances/romantic aspects in PS:T as I previously pointed that it don't matter. 

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Yes they are same from ego stroking perspective,

No, they're not. And no, contrary to what you're trying to say, the mere use of ego-stroking does not mean that Romance is occurring.

 

 

they are written differently and they have different content,

And different motivations. And different feelings. Can it be any more clear and obvious than that?

 

 

but you argued that Annah and Fall-from-Grace aren't romances because they are ego stroking like other characters in PS:T,

Specifically, I said that they're only ego-stroking. And that's the difference. When Bioware does a romance, the ego-stroking is just the beginning of the process. Edited by Stun
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Ego stroking is one main purpose of companion characters, as that will make player feel that his character is important, loved, feared etc

 

 

Strongly Agree

Agree

No Opinion

Disagree

Strongly Disagree

 

Really it's nothing about that. Or Xzar and Montaro, Edwin or Xan make the player feel important and I've failed to see how. I know the first BG didn't put the same depth in its companions background, but they had personality nevertheless.

 

 

Edited by CaptainMace
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Qu'avez-vous fait de l'honneur de la patrie ?

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Yes they are same from ego stroking perspective,

No, they're not. And no, contrary to what you're trying to say, the mere use of ego-stroking does not mean that Romance is occurring.

 

 

they are written differently and they have different content,

And different motivations. And different feelings. Can it be any more clear and obvious than that?

 

 

but you argued that Annah and Fall-from-Grace aren't romances because they are ego stroking like other characters in PS:T,

Specifically, I said that they're only ego-stroking. And that's the difference. When Bioware does a romance, the ego-stroking is just the beginning of the process.

 

 

 

Yes they are same from ego stroking perspective,

No, they're not. And no, contrary to what you're trying to say, the mere use of ego-stroking does not mean that Romance is occurring.

 

 

they are written differently and they have different content,

And different motivations. And different feelings. Can it be any more clear and obvious than that?

 

 

but you argued that Annah and Fall-from-Grace aren't romances because they are ego stroking like other characters in PS:T,

Specifically, I said that they're only ego-stroking. And that's the difference. When Bioware does a romance, the ego-stroking is just the beginning of the process.

 

 

Companion romance is only only ego-stroking,  because it is meant to make player feel that their character is loved/lusted/admired/etc. by npc companion.

 

Bioware's romances are pure ego stroking from start to finish (which is large part of their problems).

 

You said

"So they have a crush on TNO. A crush that for Grace goes completely unrealized, and for Annah goes unrealized until she dies. That's ego stroking, not romance."

 

Crush is in my book something that belongs in under romantic story telling aspects and when that crush is directed towards protagonist of story or protagonist of story directs feelings of crush towards some character in story that means that story has romance/romantic aspects. Romances like every other aspect of story aren't black and white things but things that can be only marginal things that are handled with couple lines/conversations or they can be main focus of story or something from between. 

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Ego stroking is one main purpose of companion characters, as that will make player feel that his character is important, loved, feared etc

 

 

Strongly Agree

Agree

No Opinion

Disagree

Strongly Disagree

 

Really it's nothing about that. Or Xzar and Montaro, Edwin or Xan make the player feel important and I've failed to see how. I know the first BG didn't put the same depth in its companions background, but they had personality nevertheless.

 

They react towards pc, they comment about pc, they comment what pc is doing, they see pc as someone they can travel with, etc. So they are ego stroking player, they may not be best or most direct ego strokers that there are, but they still all ego stroke player. Ego stroking is quite interesting things as it usually better if player don't realize that it is happening.

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