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Feminism


Hurlshort

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Hey guys, so I'm noticing this weird thing online where the word feminism has become some negative catch phrase, and it is super awkward.  Feminism is an important historical movement that has covered a myriad of struggles for the rights of women.  It has been an important part of the civil rights movement, and given the fact that many countries do not offer anywhere near equality towards women, it still has an important role in society.  You should encourage feminism, because it is encouraging rights for your mothers, your sisters, and your daughters.  I want my daughter to be able to travel anywhere in the world and be afforded the same rights as anyone else.  I support feminism.  

 

Now I've seen a lot of example thrown up of radical feminism.  This is not the same thing as feminism.  It is radicalized, hence the first part of the word.  The tricky part is at one point, most ideas are radical.  Women voting was at one time a radical idea.  In a lot of ways, radical feminism is a form of theoretical feminism.  You come up with a bunch of narratives, and eventually the crazier ones get weeded out and the rational ones enter the mainstream.    

 

Now feel free to voice your concerns about certain theories within feminism.  You can be pro-life and still be a feminist.  You can rescue the princess in the castle and still support feminism.  Again, there are a myriad of movements within feminism.  My wife blames feminism for the fact that it is hard to find men holding doors open for ladies, that the concepts of being a gentleman have been lost under the push for strong independent women.  But she is also a strong and vocal independent woman with an education and a career.  She is setting an example for my daughter and her students as to what women are capable.  She is the greatest feminist I know.  I support her fully.  

 

So feminism is a complex term that should be treated as such.  Derision and scorn towards feminism in general not only places you firmly on the wrong side of history, it makes you look insecure about your own place in society.  So yeah, lets use some caution with the whole feminism = bad stuff I'm seeing so much of online.   

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Feminism started becoming a joke when it started being more about Disney Princesses and Boob Plate instead of women's rights. Its also experiencing the same backlash the labour movement is going through, where everything important has already been won and people are starting to see the battles they choose to fightas grasping at power rather than anything really important.

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I'm for common sense and equal rights.

 

But as for radical feminism and the good kind of feminism being at odds. Yeah, I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the good feminists keeping the bad ones in firm check. And we are seeing modern feminism cross beyond reasonable boundaries with increasing frequency and no one is permitted to say anything without being publicly lynched.

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Feminism has become so reviled that people, and I'm talking both men and women, would sooner admit to being a drug addict or criminal than call themselves a feminist, at least where I live.  While most people I know support equality, the term feminism has become so tainted by radical "feminists" over the last decade or so, that it's now synonymous with screeching, overbearing, man-hating harpies.  Radical "feminists" of today are not feminists at all, at least not going by what feminism was originally defined as, they are miserable people that want everybody else to be miserable too, so they set out to destroy anything and everything others enjoy under the guise of "feminism" so that everyone else can share in their misery.  It's too bad, since it hampers the work of those actually fighting for women's rights.

Edited by Keyrock

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You've opened up a large can of worms Hurlie.

 

Whether its deserved or not, (modern 3rd Wave)feminism has a reputation for being obsessed with trivial bull**** and hating men. When you look at the outcries over shirts and feminists carrying mugs labeled "male tears", it's easy to understand why someone would have that perception, even if you feel it's unfair.

 

I find myself identifying as egalitarian these days, as my personal experience with both feminists and mras is that they are attempting to address gender inequality by focusing on the interests of only one gender. In addition, I find their lack of interest in class and economic issues infuriating and their focus on identity politics a distraction.

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Yeah, I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the good feminists keeping the bad ones in firm check.

 

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the good muslims keeping the bad ones in firm check.

 

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the good african americans keeping the bad ones in firm check.

 

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. I'm not seeing the good gamergaters keeping the bad ones in firm check.

 

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I get where both sides are coming from. The vast majority of feminists are good people who just want equal rights for everyone. However, there's a huge contigent of "radical feminists" (a misnomer if there ever was one, as they're not radical about women's rights at all, they're radical misandrists), especially online, that don't want that at all and have ruined the, if not credibility of, then at least the public goodwill towards feminism. I'm not sure it's in other feminsts' ability or even responsibility to do something about that.

 

Either way, I think Hurl's post is condescending and most of it is dead wrong regardless of that. Everyone who I've ever heard claim anything about the "wrong side of history" has turned out to be full of it. Saying that in the same sentence as "it's a complex issue" is just ridiculous. Plus, it's a gross oversimplification that it's about getting more rights for your daughters. Some feminists want to give your daughters more rights at expense your sons, others want to take rights away from your daughters for "their own good" - a woman should not dress provocatively because then they will be objectified by men. Cover up so men aren't tempted, gee, I wonder what religions practice that.

 

I don't want feminism to go down, I consider myself a feminist - women are treated unfairly in a lot of aspects and especially in certain places of the world and that is awful - but there's a reason that feminism has become a dirty word - because it's been dirtied. It's hilarious that you say it's the "wrong side of history" because the amount of women that even still identify as feminists is the lowest it has been in decades. If feminism doesn't get some good PR and soon, it won't even be a factor in history. Emma Watson's speech on feminism started with the disclaimer "feminism has become synonymous with manhating, and this has to stop". Why do you think that is? The following week, all the goodwill built up by her speech was removed because some feminists thought it was important to harass a scientist over a shirt with some tasteful pinups of strong, confident women.

 

I mentioned this briefly in the GamerGate thread, but there was this story making the rounds on the internet that a feminist aborted a baby after finding out it was going to be a boy and she could not bring another monster into the world. It was obviously false but I showed this to people and every single person I showed, even, no, especially the women, believed it in a second and did not consider it out of character for feminists in any way. Whatever you or me might say the definition of feminism really is, that is what the public perception of it is - the people that are so out there that nobody considers the possibility that them killing a baby is a hoax. I want feminism, true feminism about equal rights, to succeed but the way it is right now, it's not going to.

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The very moment it became about "The Patriarchy" it became as credible as other tinfoil hat-conspiracies. Imagine Martin Luther King giving speeches about dismantling "White society" because that's pretty much how the message comes out at the moment. 

 

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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True equality isn't possible, be it gender or otherwise. That being said, it's a good thing to strive for it.

 

As far as feminism is concerned, I mostly agree with Keyrock. Though even if this was the original feminist movement we were talking about, I doubt I would very much agree or support them nowadays. As far as my country is concerned I don't see any big disparity in how women and men are treated (in fact in some pretty important things they have preferential treatment), the differences that do remain are basic ones and I'm not so sure those should or can be changed. This is all, of course, prejudiced by the fact that I'm a man, but I don't think I'm wrong in this case.

Edited by Sarex

"It goes without saying anyone here can quote me as they like for their signatures." - KP

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Why give a small radical group the power to take over the word feminism?  It is a powerful one with a long history, it shouldn't be easily tarnished by the whims of a vocal group on the internet.  

 

Also, why is this the point that many of you choose to draw the line in the sand?  The internet is filled with caustic racism and homophobia.  Why are tweets about misandry and misogyny such a focal point?   

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Why give a small radical group the power to take over the word feminism?  It is a powerful one with a long history, it shouldn't be easily tarnished by the whims of a vocal group on the internet.  

 

Also, why is this the point that many of you choose to draw the line in the sand?  The internet is filled with caustic racism and homophobia.  Why are tweets about misandry and misogyny such a focal point?   

 

Because that's all we hear and see...

"It goes without saying anyone here can quote me as they like for their signatures." - KP

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The biggest problem with Feminism (and other political movements of it's ilk) is that when it finally achieves it's goal it doesn't go away. It just looks for it's next fight because there is money to be made grinding the axe, even when it's unnecessary or even counterproductive. 

 

Women have equal rights, equal access, equal whatever. What's the beef here?

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"While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before"

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The biggest problem with Feminism (and other political movements of it's ilk) is that when it finally achieves it's goal it doesn't go away. It just looks for it's next fight because there is money to be made grinding the axe, even when it's unnecessary or even counterproductive. 

 

Women have equal rights, equal access, equal whatever. What's the beef here?

 

They want to be treated and regarded equally by men (as one man regards another) in all the good ways but none of the bad.

Edited by Sarex

"It goes without saying anyone here can quote me as they like for their signatures." - KP

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Why give a small radical group the power to take over the word feminism?  It is a powerful one with a long history, it shouldn't be easily tarnished by the whims of a vocal group on the internet.  

 

Also, why is this the point that many of you choose to draw the line in the sand?  The internet is filled with caustic racism and homophobia.  Why are tweets about misandry and misogyny such a focal point?   

 

Because they are not visible in any way. Blame your own media for giving all the highlight to the genderfluid, racist, manhating "women" that scream and whine about mansplaining like Alex Jones screams about chem-trails and FEMA camps. Not only that, the universities are filled with them as well. 

 

I highly suggests watching the video i linked earlier. It clearly showes how Dr. Janice Fiamengo, a feminist like the ones you probably are talking about, is treated for having the "wrong" idea about gender.

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Why give a small radical group the power to take over the word feminism?  It is a powerful one with a long history, it shouldn't be easily tarnished by the whims of a vocal group on the internet.  

 

Also, why is this the point that many of you choose to draw the line in the sand?  The internet is filled with caustic racism and homophobia.  Why are tweets about misandry and misogyny such a focal point?   

 

Because that's all we hear and see...

 

 

Confirmation bias much?

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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Trying to have a lecture with the wrong opinions about rape culture is not welcomed:

 

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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The biggest problem with Feminism (and other political movements of it's ilk) is that when it finally achieves it's goal it doesn't go away. It just looks for it's next fight because there is money to be made grinding the axe, even when it's unnecessary or even counterproductive. 

 

Women have equal rights, equal access, equal whatever. What's the beef here?

 

We've come a tremendous way since the 50's and 60's, but we hardly live in a Utopia of equality.  Emma Watson's speech does a better job then I can of arguing where the work still lies.  The international situation is where you really see the contrast.  Thanks for posting that Raithe.  Everyone should watch it, it does a much better job of stating what I wanted to say in my original post.

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This thread is painful.

 

The lazy version of saying "That's offensive".

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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Confirmation bias much?

 

Oh, really?

 

 

Well, it's pretty much the equivalent of saying "nowadays, all movies are awful", based on the (debatable, but not completely inane) notion of "nowadays, all Hollywood blockbusters are awful".

 

Well, duh, 90% of everything ever created is crap. The onus is on you to discover the good stuff.

"Lulz is not the highest aspiration of art and mankind, no matter what the Encyclopedia Dramatica says."

 

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This thread is painful.

The lazy version of saying "That's offensive".

 

Nah, more a nicer way of saying "you guys are dumb".

 

In short, from what I can gather this thread is made up of people who have not read any feminist texts; are ignorant of most if not all of the theoretical grounding; are unaware of the differences between the various schools of thought; are ignorant of the history of feminism; do not know which groups do and do not have significant influence and whose exposure to feminism is limited to some stupid posts made by 15 year olds on tumblr.

 

 

And now with that lack of investigation into the topic they feel they're equipped to critique "feminism".

Edited by Barothmuk
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