PAX South 2015 live thread

[Blarghagh]

It was mentioned as a factor for said dev feeling uncomfortable, not as a jumping off point to discuss the merits of it. The rest of the thread is a discussion of PAX comments about how it gave developers more freedom to interact and it grew organically from there - leaping on someone at the first mention of feminism is NOT. Either way, stop discussing each other. This thread is on very thin ice as it it.

[PrimeJunta]

I'm curious, @TrueNeutral and other mods.

 

(1) Do you think there is an actual problem here (i.e., these forums not being welcoming to, among other people, Obsidian devs?)

(2) If so, do you think the problem is worth discussing, perhaps to make things better?

 

If you prefer to shut the discussion down before it starts, that's your call obviously. From where I'm at though it is both symptomatic and a causative factor of the problem (and yes, as I said, I do believe there is one).

[Luckmann]

I believe he is reacting to Luckmann posting tumblr images of neo-nazi quotes.

I did no such thing. Now, apparently I can't link to the image for whatever reason (It is not "a racial, ethnic, gender, religious, disablement, and/or sexually discriminating remark" by any means) but it was most decidedingly not a "neo-nazi quote".

 

Oh, I missed those.

 

He'd know where to find them of course...

Yes, Google Image Search. It's a real tough thing, hard to use and hard to find. Only the really edgy have the know-how.

 

Are you familiar with the terms "mansplaining" or "whitesplaining" by any chance? Just curious...

No sane person is. Simply listening to the trite newspeak confers 1d10 Insanity Points. Edited January 26, 2015 by Luckmann

[PrimeJunta]

Edit: never mind.

Edited January 26, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Endrosz]

Somewhat back on track -- about what's different with Kickstarter, as opposed to with a publisher?

 

At the end of the recent interview with Josh, the interviewer asked about the website for Pillars of Eternity. Josh struggled a bit with remembering, and said he's unsure, but it's probably eternity dot obsidian dot net (that's right).

 

This kind of "PR blunder" is unimaginable with a marketing team doing the talking. They're fully prepped to paint a picture, and what little they are allowed to tell, they parrot it perfectly. Otherwise, people can get fired for not doing their job, which is seemingly enthusiastic parroting. With Kickstarter, the devs can talk themselves and not worry about delivering the perfect message.

[archangel979]

So to get back on track, I wish they showed more gameplay and talked about it more. Although the second part was cool about talk about a TB game. Also when questions were asked I would have liked less questions but answered by all devs there, not just Sawyer.

[Naith1]

Sorry for stupid question but...what are this thin strips (indicators) over team heads in the game?

and is it possible to block this option somehow? 

[BlueLion]

 

Sorry for stupid question but...what are this thin strips (indicators) over team heads in the game?

and is it possible to block this option somehow?  

 

 

That's endurance.

Edited January 26, 2015 by BlueLion

[TheisEjsing]

First of all @BlueLion, stop destroying the thread. Show some respect for the people who want to discuss PAX. Trueneutral has clearified the topic of this thread twice now.  

PAX wasn't too illuminating. If one has followed PoE closely, there wasn't much new about the game. Mostly cool recaps of past and current events. However I really like Avellone's comment on how devs can be allowed to be "professional" friends thanks to kickstarter. The sharing of ideas across studios really has a lot of potential. I found that part most interesting. 
Creative shearing between InXile and Obsidian, as well as others bodes well for the future of crpgs.

Edited January 26, 2015 by TheisEjsing

[PrimeJunta]

Sorry for stupid question but...what are this thin strips (indicators) over team heads in the game?

and is it possible to block this option somehow? 

 

They indicate the status of each of the toons: endurance, recovery state, next action. Yes, you can switch them off, but (currently at least) there is no alternative indicator for this information. Some people here have asked that it would be displayed next to or on the portraits as well, additionally, or instead.

 

@mods: I am very curious to see what action, if any, will be taken regarding @BlueLion's latest comment. Whatever you do, it will say a lot about this place.

[Gorbag]

Sorry for stupid question but...what are this thin strips (indicators) over team heads in the game?

and is it possible to block this option somehow? 

The green/red circular dots/pips indicate how healthy this character is, the line beneath them shows when the character will act next (after the line disappears), and the icon in the circle next to them shows what action the character is about to perform. They only come up during combat and I believe you can hide those. 

 

@BlueLion: Just don't. 

 

EDIT: Beaten by PrimeJunta

Edited January 26, 2015 by Gorbag

[cmergler]

Sorry for stupid question but...what are this thin strips (indicators) over team heads in the game?

and is it possible to block this option somehow? 

The green points are indicators for Endurance, and the shortening line indicates Recovery (time to next action). I hope I got that right 

 

[Ouch, was already answered  ]

Edited January 26, 2015 by cmergler

[GrinningReaper659]

I think the problem is pretty clear when a dev can't come into this thread and post something without getting some disrespectful responses. Sure, have a laugh and tell the dev attempting to interact with the community here that they need to grow a thick skin and whatever else you need to say and then scratch your head and wonder why the devs don't interact more here... really?

 

I think they just have no desire to come here and willingly put themselves through any sort of verbal abuse or discomfort for no reason. Actual discussion about the game design leads to bickering about who's right, potential personal attacks between posters, and ultimately anything good you could get out of the discussion can be had by reading the discussion w/out interaction; attempt to discuss anything else, including the clearly negative environment here, and you get negative people telling you to get a thicker skin and wondering why the devs don't interact more. hmmm. As many others have said, I doubt I'd be casually interacting here much either. First of all, it's a terrible use of their work time to do so as simply reading the forums seems much more productive most of the time, and in their free time they'd rather not be insulted or abused because they're just not into that sort of thing.

 

I think it would be very easy to encourage more devs to interact with the forum in their free time by behaving professionally. If communications between fans and devs didn't include language or attitudes that one wouldn't use with a stranger or acquantaince in the workplace, then I imagine it would occur more often. Imagine going to a con and a dev sits down to talk to you and your friends and one of your friends starts harrassing them about design decisions and insulting them, would you be surprised if they left and didn't choose to come back over? I sure wouldn't be. To be fair, most of the polite posters here wouldn't be associating with the more negative types in person, but the nature of the forum is that we're essentially all sitting right next to each other here and you can't really avoid a bunch of negative posters without avoiding the forum (or that area of the forum) altogether.

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

@mods: I am very curious to see what action, if any, will be taken regarding @BlueLion's latest comment. Whatever you do, it will say a lot about this place.

As questionable as the post may be in part ("bla bla bla, men like chicks, bla") he does make a good point, though. Tigrin's last post was in March 2014. When the motivation is higher to go SJWing - relating even to very specific parts of the overall forum instead of the sections where relevant discussion is going on - than to actually discuss the game for which the forums are intended, something's clearly amiss.

 

[...]

 

PAX wasn't too illuminating. If one has followed PoE closely, there wasn't much new about the game. Mostly cool recaps of past and current events. However I really like Avellone's comment on how devs can be allowed to be "professional" friends thanks to kickstarter. The sharing of ideas across studios really has a lot of potential. I found that part most interesting. 

 

Creative shearing between InXile and Obsidian, as well as others bodes well for the future of crpgs.

This is actually way more interesting and relevant than anything else that has been brought up so far, really. It's funny that Avellone would bring it up, because it feels like I see his name popping up left, right and centre in Kickstarter projects.

 

Kickstarter and the Indep. change in the industry seems to be making game development more "natural", rather than closed studios(es?) in lockdown (in multiple senses of the word). Open, instead of insular, and that's a really interesting change, for many different reasons. I can see in particular writers and concept artists and so on benefiting from this, but also "freelance" programmers could be a (viable) thing in the future, and that's pretty cool.

 

People moving fluidly between different projects in different studios that appeal to them, rather than pinning them to projects from start to finish under one corporate flag.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Luckmann

[Sedrefilos]

I think the problem is pretty clear when a dev can't come into this thread and post something without getting some disrespectful responses. Sure, have a laugh and tell the dev attempting to interact with the community here that they need to grow a thick skin and whatever else you need to say and then scratch your head and wonder why the devs don't interact more here... really?

 

I think they just have no desire to come here and willingly put themselves through any sort of verbal abuse or discomfort for no reason. Actual discussion about the game design leads to bickering about who's right, potential personal attacks between posters, and ultimately anything good you could get out of the discussion can be had by reading the discussion w/out interaction; attempt to discuss anything else, including the clearly negative environment here, and you get negative people telling you to get a thicker skin and wondering why the devs don't interact more. hmmm. As many others have said, I doubt I'd be casually interacting here much either. First of all, it's a terrible use of their work time to do so as simply reading the forums seems much more productive most of the time, and in their free time they'd rather not be insulted or abused because they're just not into that sort of thing.

 

I think it would be very easy to encourage more devs to interact with the forum in their free time by behaving professionally. If communications between fans and devs didn't include language or attitudes that one wouldn't use with a stranger or acquantaince in the workplace, then I imagine it would occur more often. Imagine going to a con and a dev sits down to talk to you and your friends and one of your friends starts harrassing them about design decisions and insulting them, would you be surprised if they left and didn't choose to come back over? I sure wouldn't be. To be fair, most of the polite posters here wouldn't be associating with the more negative types in person, but the nature of the forum is that we're essentially all sitting right next to each other here and you can't really avoid a bunch of negative posters without avoiding the forum (or that area of the forum) altogether.

 

Unfortunately, internet is the worst place to start or participate in a conversation. It is the easyest way for bad people to say bad things without consequences - something they wouldn't and couldn't do in a face-to-face conversation, especially with other people around.

[PrimeJunta]

As questionable as the post may be in part ("bla bla bla, men like chicks, bla") he does make a good point, though. Tigrin's last post was in March 2014. When the motivation is higher to go SJWing - relating even to very specific parts of the overall forum instead of the sections where relevant discussion is going on - than to actually discuss the game for which the forums are intended, something's clearly amiss.

 

I agree. Something is amiss. 

 

It is, however, entirely unreasonable to point the finger at the devs who don't want to participate, rather than the community they don't want to participate in.

 

What would you have Obs do anyway? Set a quota of so many posts per week, per dev? Bet that'd be fun.

[Sedrefilos]

Good thing is the game will be out in a couple of months, so we'll all play it from start to finish, see if we liked it or not or what we liked and what we didn't, then come back here and give the REAL feedback this game needs for changes to be made for the expansion and maybe for a second game in the wolrd of Pillars.

 

And we'd better be able to tell feedback from demands.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Sedrefilos

[Stun]

The evolution of this thread is both interesting and bewildering at the same time. This entire discussion began when someone (Ok, me, I admit it) commented on something that just Chris Avellone said - that he loves the kickstarter model because it gives him the freedom to interact with the fanbase freely and directly during development.

 

Then come the responses to this, in no particular order:

 

1) Josh is very active everywhere!

2) The devs are busy!

3) The Devs HAVE communicated with us! 88 updates!

4) The fanbase is vicious/immature/[____insert bad personality trait here___]!

5) The forums are a hostile environment!

6) Communism! Sexism! Feminism! Grognardism!

 

Then of course, there's the occasional attempt to address the actual comment that was made.

1) While Chris Avellone doesn't post in his own forum, he freely and directly engages the fans elsewhere! we're sure of it... we just don't know where!

2) If I was Chris Avellone, I wouldn't engage the fans here either, but I would still proudly broadcast the fact that I can!

 

Ok, I guess this is a dead end.

 

 

Anyway, the stream! That army of summoned Skeletons is super cool. It's totally BG1-ish! I almost wish they put Drizzt in this game so that I can surround him with a sea of skeletons as my party takes potshots from the back in safety. Aaah, memories!

Edited January 26, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

I agree. Something is amiss. 

 

It is, however, entirely unreasonable to point the finger at the devs who don't want to participate, rather than the community they don't want to participate in.

 

What would you have Obs do anyway? Set a quota of so many posts per week, per dev? Bet that'd be fun.

I think that it's not unreasonable at all to question why they are unwilling to participate on the one community that is their own. The community isn't half as vitriolic or toxic as some seem to want to make it out to be, and even the vast majority of critical posts are matter-of-fact and blunt, rather than insulting or offensive.

 

Obsidian as an entity clearly cannot mandate a minimum amount of PPW, but this is an issue that they should take up and discuss, because I really think it's an issue. Sawyer for example clearly has no trouble interacting with fans as long as he's not being expected to explain his design decisions, which he'd likely be questioned on if he posted around here.

 

I think a large amount of the problems stems from the fact that the developers aren't used to be personally questioned on their decisions, and being questioned without taking personal insult does take practice. It's not something people just suddenly do one day, most people aren't used to have to defend themselves, especially not professionally.

 

So when this whole new venue of thought opened up, a back-and-forth between developers and players, many of them recoiled and retreated to their comfort zones. While understandable and perfectly natural, it's not very constructive.

[dorkboy]

@Luckmann

"I think a large amount of the problems stems from the fact that the developers aren't used to be personally questioned on their decisions, and being questioned without taking personal insult does take practice. It's not something people just suddenly do one day, most people aren't used to have to defend themselves, especially not professionally."

I think you're wrong about that being one of the causes.

 

---

 

Question about the stream video - do they play/discuss story and location details until the end of the video, or is there a point I can watch it from to avoid Spoilers of Eternity?

Edited January 26, 2015 by dorkboy

[PrimeJunta]

1) While Chris Avellone doesn't post in his own forum, he freely and directly engages the fans elsewhere! we're sure of it... we just don't know where!

@Stun. Please take a deep breath and go over this thread again.

 

It has been pointed out to you -- repeatedly -- that Chris Avellone is, in fact, actively engaging with the fans in a number of ways and number of communities, with specific lists of the ways and communities in which he is active. Twitter and cons, to na,me two.

 

The fact that the discussion subsequently expanded to cover other developers and possible reasons for their apparent reluctance to communicate on this particular forum is neither here nor there.

 

I think that it's not unreasonable at all to question why they are unwilling to participate on the one community that is their own. The community isn't half as vitriolic or toxic as some seem to want to make it out to be, and even the vast majority of critical posts are matter-of-fact and blunt, rather than insulting or offensive.

 

Yes, it is too, just as vitriolic and toxic as "some seem to want to make it out to be." And in fact a small minority of critical posts are not insulting or offensive. Of your grog brigade, only Sensuki is consistently constructive in fact.

 

You know what else? It wouldn't even matter if the majority of critical posts were constructive, if the aggressive, offensive, butthurt, and entitled ones don't ever get any pushback. They're the ones that set the tone.

[Stun]

 

1) While Chris Avellone doesn't post in his own forum, he freely and directly engages the fans elsewhere! we're sure of it... we just don't know where!

 

It has been pointed out to you -- repeatedly -- that Chris Avellone is, in fact, actively engaging with the fans in a number of ways and number of communities, with specific lists of the ways and communities in which he is active. Twitter and cons, to na,me two.

 

Ok, PrimeJunta, since I'm getting tired of calling you to task and getting nothing from you but empty claims, I'm going to do your job for you.

 

Avellone is active on Twitter:

 

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone

 

He posts lots of pictures....of promotional events he attends, like this Pax conference (for example). He wishes people a happy new year and a merry Christmas. He imparts humorous vignettes about his personal life, and displays his awesome doodling skills. He discusses everything but the development/game itself.

 

I'm pretty sure though, PrimeJunta, that this is NOT what he meant when he said that the kickstarter model allows him to interact with the fans directly and freely about the development process, as opposed to how things must be if a big publisher was in charge. That much is *painfully* Obvious. Because if that WAS what he meant then he'd be full of sh*t. He's doing nothing here that every single Bioware developer hasn't done every day while under EA's control.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun you win. MCA is a dirty liar, claiming he enjoys community interaction when he actually doesn't. He also has terribly poor taste for not wanting to hang out which such charming people as you and I. He is, in fact, a traitor for once having been active here but then having left for greener pastures.

 

Happy?

[C2B]

Badmouthing the developers due to that frustration aint gonna get you anywhere though and it is self-defeating as it means that they will spend less time here. I have busted my guts out in the beta trying to get some of our agenda through via my suggestion threads, and help make the game more playable by submitting ~50 bug reports per patch. The less time the developers spend on the forums, the less of that stuff gets noticed.

 

So if you wouldn't mind, consider taking a different approach with that in mind next time. Alas, much of the damage has probably already been done.

 

@Tigrin, if you're still reading - IME most "General Discussion" areas of any forum on the net are best-avoided. There are plenty of people here who would willingly engage in conversations about the game, and the animation side of it.

 

 

Yep

 

 

Hey Chris Avellone, Matt Sheets, and the rest of the developer team at Obsidian. You guys rock. You engage with us everywhere. Some of you do here in this cesspool that is the Obsidian forums, some of you engage us over in the other cesspool that is the Codex, some of you engage other fans over at SA or Badgame or even via your twitters/tumblrs/vines/whatevers. Hell you've been to PAX and E3 promoting your game as the developers (not the marketing team) and are always willing to asnwer our questions and even sometimes engage in the butthurt.

 

Cheers to you guys. You've worked hard and you deserve the praise you'll undoubtedly get from this game. Rock on and don't let a bunch of chuckleheads give you grief.

 

We love you guys.

 

Agreed

 

Sawyer for example clearly has no trouble interacting with fans as long as he's not being expected to explain his design decisions, which he'd likely be questioned on if he posted around here.

 

 

LoL No

 

Sawyer doesn't answer questions regarding every decision, but he does spend a significant amount of time explaining certain decisions even outside of SA. Like on Tumblr or formerly on formspring and here as well (Even if now significantly less so) In fact I can easily imagine him posting more about decisions post release.

Theres something to be said about the other devs, but them deciding to engange is very much dependant on the environment here. Snarky comments and (hidden) personal insults don't help at all. The tone is allowed to be a bit more rough, but it still has to relate to the game itself.

 

 

Funny enough there are multiple RPG codex members (including me) here that support the devs

Edited January 26, 2015 by C2B

[Stun]

@Stun you win. MCA is a dirty liar, claiming he enjoys community interaction when he actually doesn't. He also has terribly poor taste for not wanting to hang out which such charming people as you and I. He is, in fact, a traitor for once having been active here but then having left for greener pastures.

 

Happy?

 

What a waste of time you are.