Original IE Mechanics: Health and Death, no endurance

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

Now explain to me the miraculous overnight life healing powers of a bed roll and how it utterly trumps the divine power of a 12th level priest of a greater god.

 

It's not even a bed roll.

 

You can pay an inn keeper to sit around in the stables for 8 hours in the middle of the day, having a chat and not even sleep and you're cured off all broken bones and ailments and are back to full health. However, if you go to the stables for free and sit around for 8 hours and have that same chat, you're still Near Death and not one point of health has been returned.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Stun]

The Endurance bar isn't some extra buffer for bad players its a way to make the game fun by making healing a part of battles and therefore "active" or "dynamic" or whichever buzzword you prefer rather than a generally post-battle thing.

Oh right. Because in the classic system where there's only 1 health bar, using healing magicks during a battle never happened.

 

You still take actual health damage in fights so you have attrition but you can avoid the situation of "well I got critically hit in that fight and the wizard used 2 spells, better rest again."

I said this in my first post on this thread and I guess I have to say it again: I found myself needing to rest way more often in this beta than I did in ANY of the IE games. So if "rest spam removal" was the design goal, then Obsidian has failed already. Edited February 11, 2015 by Stun

[Lychnidos]

This tread makes me wonder is PoE some people's first encounter with the concept of video games. 

[Kinthalis]

I almost always found systems like these to be more realistic, depending on what they depicted on screen, or how the scene was described by the DM.

 

In real life, if you get hit with a sword with any severity, you're probably going to die. You're not, as the OP describes, going to survive multiple bite wounds, deep lacerations from claws, and having your arm cut off with an axe.

 

Instead, what systems like this tend to indicate is that endurance is a measure of the effort expended at diverting, parrying, dodging, etc serious wounds. Instead of the large two-handed axe hitting you on the noggin and cause "10 hp of damage", which instead should of killed you, you "expend" 10 points of endurance redirecitng the axe so that it glances your helmet and daes you instead.

 

I don't know, that's my interpretation at least.

[Lephys]

Yeah, it's abstractly just defensive-only stamina. It represents the physical extent to which you can fight, despite not bleeding to death or being mortally wounded, but simply doesn't represent exertion from your own actions. Offensive exertion is independently represented (in PoE's case, by per-rest/encounter limitations for all characters/classes).

Edited February 14, 2015 by Lephys

[Elerond]

Yeah, it's abstractly just defensive-only stamina. It represents the physical extent to which you can fight, despite not bleeding to death or being mortally wounded, but simply doesn't represent exertion from your own actions. Offensive exertion is independently represented (in PoE's case, by per-rest/encounter limitations for all characters/classes).

 

It is just one of the things in game where "fun"* overcomes simulation in gameplay.

 

* quotation marks because of fun begin too subjective matter not to use them

Edited February 14, 2015 by Elerond

[Lephys]

Yeah, I mean, it's not a "one mechanic to rule them all" situation or anything. You can get me started on almost any simulated system, and I'll think of ways they'd be really cool in a game. But, at the end of the day, if that game's tutorial is 73 hours because you simulate boot-lace-tying, and how it effects blister-occurrences on your character's feet, then, at least in some way, fun has been trampled.

 

Wound systems can be very fun. But, at the same time, so can hitpoints (to free up all that wound-simulating time for some other really fun aspect of gameplay). They make sense, in a "Oh, I see, you can only take so many sword slashes before you're dead, and some things hurt you worse than others" kind of way, so that wounds can be represented but do not take the stage.

 

I dunno if there's a global equation or anything, but the more focused you get into a single system of a game, the closer you get toward a sort of Threshold of Convolution. I mean, if it requires an hour of your time to tend all your wounds and keep track of them between battles, and another couple hours of your time to manage your inventory and economy every time you go back to town, and another hour of your time to realistically survey and mine ores for your stronghold to use, and another hour of your time to realistically spend social free time with all your companions, and so on and so forth... pretty soon it takes you about 7 hours just to get ANYTHING done in the game. Only played the game for an hour? Congratulations, you made sure wounds all healed up properly in a short stretch of travel. Or maybe you sold/bought everything you wanted to. Or maybe you checked on stronghold finances/resource routes.

 

Any of those individual things would be really, really awesome. But, they just sort of create the inadvertent side effect of "It takes way too long doing all these things to really 'play the game,' since all of these individual systems sort of Voltron together to make up 'the gameplay, proper.'"

[Gairnulf]

You do not simply fall unconscious when crushed by the fist of an Iron Golem, you are not simply knocked out after a Beholder casts Finger of Death. You die.

And then you load your last savegame, which you most probably made before the battle.

 

I think the long- and short-term health separation is one of the best things in PoE's game mechanics.

[rjshae]

In terms of American Football, I'm interpreting Endurance as determining the amount of physical effort that you're able to put out in the later stages of the game after being repeatedly beat upon; Health I see as deciding whether you need to sit out the game because you're physically unable to perform. Fit players can recovery their Endurance between games, but Health injuries require extensive treatment that can take weeks or months to complete.

 

What is a little unusual is for Health to be a direct percentage slice of Endurance as in PoE. But I suppose that is a simplification mechanic for the sake of game play (as the speedy recovery time).

[Lychnidos]

Much ado about nothing. Why is it so difficult to imagine "Endurence" as the amount of damage the body can take before passing out; and as follows "Health", the amount before dying?

[Lephys]

Yeah. It's pretty simple. It's possible to be rendered unable to continue fighting without being killed or in the position of bleeding out, etc. And it's possible to be dead or fatally wounded.

 

Just because the system doesn't measure all the factors precisely doesn't mean the two base concepts are nonsensical.

 

Welcome to video games.

[CaptainMace]

Much ado about nothing. Why is it so difficult to imagine "Endurence" as the amount of damage the body can take before passing out; and as follows "Health", the amount before dying?

Agree. Now it'as come to my understanding that what annoys people with this is more the fact that uncounscious characters/foes can't be furthermore targeted during the fight than the fact they can be knocked down 'til the end of the fight when they get back up.

 

But then again, that's a matter of game balance. When you engage in a fight against 5 patibulaire dudes and manage to knock one of 'em down. If you're given the possibility to keep on hitting 'em to "actually kill 'em"... would you seriously do it ? No, obviously you'll focus on the others since there's no point in wasting time and energy on 'em.

Considering this, it wouldn't be fair that enemies keep on hitting your fallen mates for the sake of killing em since that doesn't affect the fight for them in a good way, worst case scenario they lose time and energy for nothing, best case scenario they manage to actually kill your mate, but still lose the fight due to not giving a F about the rest of the crew.

 

I like the system as it is.

Edited February 21, 2015 by CaptainMace

[Doppelschwert]

 

Much ado about nothing. Why is it so difficult to imagine "Endurence" as the amount of damage the body can take before passing out; and as follows "Health", the amount before dying?

Agree. Now it'as come to my understanding that what annoys people with this is more the fact that uncounscious characters/foes can't be furthermore targeted during the fight than the fact they can be knocked down 'til the end of the fight when they get back up.

 

But then again, that's a matter of game balance. When you engage in a fight against 5 patibulaire dudes and manage to knock one of 'em down. If you're given the possibility to keep on hitting 'em to "actually kill 'em"... would you seriously do it ? No, obviously you'll focus on the others since there's no point in wasting time and energy on 'em.

Considering this, it wouldn't be fair that enemies keep on hitting your fallen mates for the sake of killing em since that doesn't affect the fight for them in a good way, worst case scenario they lose time and energy for nothing, best case scenario they manage to actually kill your mate, but still lose the fight due to not giving a F about the rest of the crew.

 

I like the system as it is.

 

 

Although i agree that the mechanic is fine as it is, there is some oversight in your argument. It does indeed not make sense to go after unconscious characters while you are attacked by living ones, however, you still would expect attacks with AoE to hit the people lying on the floor.

[CaptainMace]

Missed that point. That still would not be fair. If my aoes manage to hit uncounscious foes and kill 'em, big deal. They were already dealt with anyway. If enemies manage to kill one of my folks this way, it'll make some setup extremely hard (see some path of the damned playthrough of the beta on YT where the guy dies a lot already) and again would not be fair since you don't get anything from doing it, yet you lose a lot when you suffer it.

[TheSteadfast]

I actually like the endurance system so far in the very short time I've spend in the backer beta.  Although from a realism perspective it is a bit silly that they would pass out when stabbed burned, ect.

 

 Some of these points have been mentioned but in IE games, including the play through of BG2 i was playing last night, one or two deaths means reload or the very tedious process of re equipping all their equipment and items.  In a particularly hard battle in the Underdark against a room full of Demon Knights, I would prep my party, cast my summons fight tactically and then lose my cleric to a finger of death spell, requiring a retry when the rest of the party survived and did their jobs.

 

Contrast this with PoE.  I was fighting a battle against those infamous beetles and a 3 guys got knocked out and I instinctively was going to reload just out of habit.  But then I thought, I can finish this last one off with my two remaining guys.  It gives a "last man standing"  heroic feel to a battle where you have the excitement of almost wiping but narrowly escaping with victory.  Then after the battle it did not feel "cheap" or easy because my party took long term damage and I had to decide if I wanted to push on or not.  It very much reminded me of the same feeling in Darkest Dungeons.  Do I risk moving forward?  Or cut my losses make the trek back into town.

 

Another problem I had in IE games is even if I memorized nothing but healing spells on my cleric, my party would need to rest before ever getting to use all of my casters spells or special items.  There are so many spells in BG2 that I never really use, for example most of the counter spells, many of the cleric buffs (no time for them)  many of the aoe spells because friendly fire meant another rest after one battle.  I used the same handful of 'best' spells and then was forced to rest, then used them again.  In fact the main strategy i used was to just spam summons to take damage and allow my party to stay healthy enough to fight a couple  tough battles in a row.  In PoE I used almost every spell my wizard had in his arsenal over the course of a four or five battles.

 

So from a purely gameplay perspective I think the endurance system will be quite refreshing.  I also like the limited camping supplies.  Although having two health bars compared to one and then you die sounds easier, in reality I think it will make the game more challenging/rewarding.

[Striped_Wolf]

I also like the new system better. It feels strategically more interesting to me, and ties together with the Rest mechanic in a more meaningful way.
At the same time, it makes the game less frustrating.
When someoine died in BG I either:

A) Removed the dead npc from the party, or
 

B) Reloaded the game, often loosing a lot of progress since I suck at quicksaving.

Because lets face it: Picking up all the dropped equipment, ammo and potions and distributing it among your already encumbered companions was really, really tiresome. 

 

[Verenti]

So if someone dies in PoE, there is no means to bring them back to life? Am I understanding this correctly?

 

Regarding reloading if one party member goes down:

 

In my last BG playthrough, I had an experience I like to call "Soloing by ablative party members". Which is to say, I'd had my main character (a blackguard, when EE was new) and every couple of fights, someone would go down: sometimes two or three and sometimes near wipes. But my character would always walk away (because I'd obviously reload if she went down.) So if someone died, knowing I didn't have the money to keep a lightweight alive, I'd just reform the party and leave their corpse on the side of the road. Next time that I walked into town, I'd pick up a few more NPCs and eventually they'd die too. The result was a playthrough that felt really brutal, even though It wasn't moustache-twirlingly evil. I think I enjoyed it more than most times I went through because combat felt more significant. Not necessarily harder -- BG1 is easy to solo-- but I knew going into the fight that any of my companions wouldn't make it out. I probably won't do this on my first playthrough with PoE. I might, but I kinda want to get to know the characters before I play fast and loose with their lives.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Verenti

[Kal Adan]

I was thinking about making my second playthrough in Pillars of Eternity with hirelings as well. The reason why I am uncertain doing this in my first playthrough is that it would feel like a waste for me to get engaged and lose a companion at some point, without uncovering all they have to offer story-wise. I will consider this - especially since the game is supposed to play differently than Baldur's Gate II, with camping and higher difficulty levels - but it's something I will have to give some thought before making a commitment like this.

[morhilane]

So if someone dies in PoE, there is no means to bring them back to life? Am I understanding this correctly?

 

Yes and I guess so.

 

The game has permadeath if you health reach 0 (endurance reaching 0 just makes you unconscious). There is a checkbox that somewhat disable that for party members, but it just give you one more chance by granting the maimed status, if health reach 0 while maimed that character is still permadead. While maimed endurance will regen, but you have 1 health and debuff to offense and defense. Only rest remove that status.

 

[MReed]

To further clarify -- even with perma-death turned on, characters still have health and stamina and they still drain at the same rate (varies by class between -1 health / -4 stamina to -1 / -7 -- the wiki has the correct numbers).  When stamina hits zero, the character is down for the remainder of that combat, but will get back up at the end, with full stamina.

 

Therefore, if no stamina recovery ability / items are used, a fully healed character will need to "die" at least 5 times before they die for real (4 times to exhaust health, plus 1 additional time with the "Maimed" status).

 

If you don't have perma-death turned on, it works the same way, except that the character won't die for real if they hit zero health while maimed.

[morhilane]

To further clarify -- even with perma-death turned on, characters still have health and stamina and they still drain at the same rate (varies by class between -1 health / -4 stamina to -1 / -7 -- the wiki has the correct numbers).  When stamina hits zero, the character is down for the remainder of that combat, but will get back up at the end, with full stamina.

 

Therefore, if no stamina recovery ability / items are used, a fully healed character will need to "die" at least 5 times before they die for real (4 times to exhaust health, plus 1 additional time with the "Maimed" status).

 

There are abilities that revive downed character (like the Paladin's Reviving Exhortation) and there are a few spells/abilities that kill (set to 0 health) a character when it reach 0 stamina (like the Cipher's Disintegrate power).

[Ark Evensong]

To further clarify -- even with perma-death turned on, characters still have health and stamina and they still drain at the same rate (varies by class between -1 health / -4 stamina to -1 / -7 -- the wiki has the correct numbers).  When stamina hits zero, the character is down for the remainder of that combat, but will get back up at the end, with full stamina.

 

Therefore, if no stamina recovery ability / items are used, a fully healed character will need to "die" at least 5 times before they die for real (4 times to exhaust health, plus 1 additional time with the "Maimed" status).

 

If you don't have perma-death turned on, it works the same way, except that the character won't die for real if they hit zero health while maimed.

Not quite right. The wiki is horribly outdated. (Or, well, it was - haven't checked for a while.)

Because I'm lazy, I'm just going to quote myself from an older thread - this is how it works in Backer Beta v435, and probably the final game, too.

 

That used to be the case, a couple of versions ago. Back then, your Endurance (called Stamina) and Health had the same "max" amount, and there was a multiplier that determined how much of the damage dealt to Endurance would also come out of your Health.

 

Now, damage is 1:1 to both Endurance and Health in most cases, with max Health being a lot higher than Endurance.

Kinda works the same in practice, though.

 

Just to sum it all up:

 

Example: I have a character with:

240/240 Health

60/60 Endurance

 

He gets hit for 20 damage. He now has:

220/240 Health

40/60 Endurance

 

Endurance can be healed in combat, and outside combat it quickly regenerates by itself.

Health is restored by resting. (And there are 1 or 2 Talents that can also heal Health, but not a whole lot, and only once per rest.)

 

So after that fight, you're at 220/240 Health, and 60/60 Endurance.

 

Run out of Endurance during a fight, and you're down. You're not getting back up without some assistance until the fight is over.

Your Endurance can never go over your current Health, so if your Health is down to 20/240, your Endurance will be stuck at 20/60 as well.

When Health reaches 0, you drop and you're Maimed. You get back up with the Maimed status, and 1 Health and 1 Endurance. Lose that last point, and you're permanently dead. This can be turned off, so that you'll be perma-dead the first time you hit 0 Health.

[Mansen]

Not going to lie - I really hate the idea of having two health meters that are separate from each other. Reminds me of the terribly arbitrary "you are tired" mechanic from Baldurs Gate...

Just give me a single health meter with uniform healing spells and I'm good. (Shelfing the game until this gets modded somehow - If ever)

[Cantousent]

I actually like the setup myself. Reminds me of Darklands, which was a great game killed by bugs and a few irritating decisions. However, it's not really like the 'you are tired' mechanic from BG. Now, the per day abilities... *those* are certainly like the 'you are tired' mechanic. <.<

[Hassat Hunter]

Am I the only one liking the 'you are tired' mechanics? Aswell as identification? Cursed items?

 

I feel so alone...