Discussion: the PoE beta xp system

[Bloody Hypocrite]

 

When do you feel it wouldn't make sense to pick a lock or disarm a trap?

When I'm already past it, e.g. by having taken an alternative route.

 

Heh, If the path-finding is like the IE games (or the beta) you know you will have to disarm that trap before your party is chain-lightninged to oblivion.

[mutonizer]

 

When do you feel it wouldn't make sense to pick a lock[..]

 

 

When you have a barbarian with 22 Might wielding a 2hd weapon?

 

 

[..] Or disarm a trap

 

When you have enemies walking right there and not triggering them?

I mean that would mean that traps have souls and are sentient so that they recognize some kind of "faction" and, should the victim be of an hostile "faction", then they trigger, otherwise they don't?

 

Oh wait...that wouldn't be how you handle traps would it?

[PrimeJunta]

 

 

When do you feel it wouldn't make sense to pick a lock or disarm a trap?

When I'm already past it, e.g. by having taken an alternative route.

 

 

 

Does that mean the chests shouldn't have items either? Or should they teleport in your inventory because you decided to skip the dungeon.

 

wat

[Gromnir]

Considering Sawyer was a main designer for IWD2 and considers that game best in IE series, you might be wanting to play a wrong game Cpt Shrek.

 

 

true. in point o' fact, unlike the imagined "spiritual successor" nonsense we have seen tossed 'bout recently, obsidian did makes the following claim on the kickstarter page for project eternity.

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

 

two years ago, folks happily paid obsidian to give'em iwd-style combat.  complaining that combat is not fun is always a valid point, but anybody who complains that combat  "will be like IWDs" were clear not paying attention when they handed over their euros or greenbacks or yen to obsidian.

 

"All this reminds me of IWD2's issue with "0 xp for you if you are X levels above the mobs you are fighting"."

 

am not likely to give bis/obsidian a break, but what you were complaining about were a d&d mechanic. bis attempted to design challenging and fun encounters, but due to d&d d20 cr, particular monsters might not result in xp for a party, particular a smaller party that had level'd quicker. cr is a mechanic for a pnp system with a living and breathing dm. it obviously were not ideal for a crpg, but bis were stuck with it. neverthless, am thinking they were more concerned with getting players to face challenging and fun encounters as 'posed to making sure that every critter death resulted in xp. after all, developers could always adjust Quest rewards to make certain that folks were getting xp.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 23, 2014 by Gromnir

[Elerond]

I am not fond with idea about current proposal of bestiary xp. But if Obsidian adds full lore xp (meaning that characters get xp from every lore entry they find, like for example books, interesting places, pieces of art, stories about world, etc.), I think it would fit fine, as it would encourage player to explore world, seek every corner, speak to everyone and hunt wild life to find more about world.

 

In current form I would also say that combat xp would only make game worse, as it would add heavy emphasis of the combat that game currently have even more, and I don't want see PoE become yet another hack & slash everything RPG, which is direction that it already leans (basin on backer beta), but instead I would like to see that it is much more story driven RPG that has combat with heavy tactical and strategic emphasis on it. So what I would like to see I less enemy mobs and adding story behind those that are left.

 

I don't that tedious combat become any more compelling if its point is make that combat easier, by for example giving xp from it. I would instead try to make combat less tedious in general, by lessening number of combat encounters, make encounters feel special by adding story behind them, trying them feel as unique challenges instead of chores dropped on the map, and if possible to give characters clear in-game world motivation to seek those combat encounters.

[Immortalis]

 

 

 

When do you feel it wouldn't make sense to pick a lock or disarm a trap?

When I'm already past it, e.g. by having taken an alternative route.

 

 

 

Does that mean the chests shouldn't have items either? Or should they teleport in your inventory because you decided to skip the dungeon.

 

wat

 

 

 

I don't want XP tied to unlocking chests but your logic is crap because you still miss out on rewards if you skip the chest so what does it matter.. Why is it okay to miss out on items / currency but not okay to skip an xp reward?

 

You don't need the XP reward to beat the game any more then you need gold or items.. you will hit level cap before the game ends.

[frapillo80]

 

Considering Sawyer was a main designer for IWD2 and considers that game best in IE series, you might be wanting to play a wrong game Cpt Shrek.

 

 

 

true. in point o' fact, unlike the imagined "spiritual successor" nonsense we have seen tossed 'bout recently, obsidian did makes the following claim on the kickstarter page for project eternity.

 

"Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment."

 

two years ago, folks happily paid obsidian to give'em iwd-style combat.  complaining that combat is not fun is always a valid point, but anybody who complains that combat  "will be like IWDs" were clear not paying attention when they handed over their euros or greenbacks or yen to obsidian.

 

"All this reminds me of IWD2's issue with "0 xp for you if you are X levels above the mobs you are fighting"."

 

I always played a 6 member party in IWD2 and, as far as I remember, I always hit the 0 xp barrier from some mobs from 2/3 of the game on. The concept is not wrong, but the implementation in IWD2 was in my opinion dreadful, and it led to all kinds of frustrations or, worse, exploits.

In the end, as I said a few times, I'm fine with the quest xp. It's the non-quest fights that currently sound like a demotivating and resource consuming drag, and appear to make stealth a mandatory skill.

 

am not likely to give bis/obsidian a break, but what you were complaining about were a d&d mechanic. bis attempted to design challenging and fun encounters, but due to d&d d20 cr, particular monsters might not result in xp for a party, particular a smaller party that had level'd quicker. cr is a mechanic for a pnp system with a living and breathing dm. it obviously were not ideal for a crpg, but bis were stuck with it. neverthless, am thinking they were more concerned with getting players to face challenging and fun encounters as 'posed to making sure that every critter death resulted in xp. after all, developers could always adjust Quest rewards to make certain that folks were getting xp.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[frapillo80]

Sorry for double posting, I seem to have messed up in quoting Gromnir:

 

I am fine with the diminishing xp concept, however, it was not very well implemented in IWD2, which led to all sorts of frustrations or, worse, exploits. By the way, as far as I remember I always hit the 0 xp for some mobs not that late into the game, and I always play a 6 member party. I always saw that as punishing the player for playing well, which did not make much sense to me. Or it was simply a shortcut to balancing difficulty and level progression: you set a dynamic, invisible wall for xp and you save a lot of time that otherwise you should have spent balancing things.

I am actually fine with PoE quest xp, as I have said: it's the non-quest combat that is pointless, demotivating and resource-consuming, and it seems to make stealth a mandatory skill.

[Gromnir]

as we noted, cr resulting in 0 xp from kills would be exacerbated by a smaller party, but for particular monsters it could happen in iwd2 as bis were clear more interested in developing challenging and fun encounters than they were in making certain that every bugbear kill resulted in an xp gain for a party. perhaps ironically, bis coulda' used quest xp to fill-in any potential shortfalls due to following d&d cr. that being said, am not certain what xp related exploits you refer to.  there weren't a great deal of tangential material in iwd2-- you were kinda on rails as far as encounters were concerned.  a game such as bg were far more subject to xp exploits.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

edit: am seeing you responded 2x, but we responded to the embedded material from your first response. this may result in confusion.

Edited September 23, 2014 by Gromnir

[frapillo80]

I mean like adding out level 1 new characters in order to lower the average level of the party and so getting more experience, then kicking them out, or, as I said, delaying leveling up for 3 or 4 levels in order to avoid the 0 xp wall. Never did either, but when you slog through 20 hardened fire trolls and get 0 xp, the temptation is there.

[Gromnir]

again, that arguable cheat is only possible because of d&d cr, and we never had to "slog through 20 hardened fire trolls and get 0 xp," so am not certain if you is being hyperbolic or if you played a different iwd2 than Gromnir... or perhaps intentional or accidental availed yourself of other exploits earlier in the game. 

 

regardless, iwd2 problems you identify is related to d&d cr, which PoE doesn't have.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited September 23, 2014 by Gromnir

[frapillo80]

Agreed, although I don't remember doing any xp exploits. My comparison was much more about IWD2's kind of frustration/feeling of a chore that I fear might be present in PoE non-quest fights, although it's a bit early to say, admittedly.

 

P.S. Yes, I'm afraid I was being hyperbolic. It might have been 15 hooked horrors or something. /kidding

Edited September 23, 2014 by frapillo80

[Cantousent]

When would you not want to pick a lock?

 

Can you bash a lock?  Do you get XP for doing so?

 

Can you find a key to the lock?  Do you get XP for doing so?

 

Can you convince someone to open the lock for you?  Do you get XP for doing so?

 

Unlike kill XP, lock picking XP surely can't be so pervasive in the aggregate that it requires extra balancing, but why it be a big deal to get XP on top of what really is the main reason to open most chests... the loot inside.  One would think that getting into loot stashes is intuitive because the whole point is to get the loot.  ...And if you get credit for the other methods, then why not just let the loot be the reward?  ...Or simply make the chest an encounter and grant XP for that?  It's idiotic, but why not?  It would also preserve quest XP.  Also, that way someone who finds the key to the chest before he finds the chest won't be penalized because he automatically opens it with the key.  This isn't a hypothetical situation.  Hell, you can get to locks in the PoE beta and unlock them before you find the key.  If you find the key, you automatically use it.  Now, as for lock picking to get to specific objectives, won't we already get XP for surmounting that hurdle anyway?  Once again, it won't matter how we overcame the obstacle.  The point will be that we did and were rewarded with XP for doing so.

 

I've did a quick glance through the posts before I sit down to read them as best I can.  If I reiterated a previous argument, just take my comments as support for the person who made it.

[PrimeJunta]

I don't want XP tied to unlocking chests but your logic is crap because you still miss out on rewards if you skip the chest so what does it matter.. Why is it okay to miss out on items / currency but not okay to skip an xp reward?

 

You don't need the XP reward to beat the game any more then you need gold or items.. you will hit level cap before the game ends.

Because within the game world's logic, it makes sense to rob a chest because there might be something valuable in it, while it makes no sense to unlock a door or untrap a trap that's already behind you. I don't like incentives that nudge you towards doing things that make no sense within the game world's logic.

[Yonjuro]

 

 

 

 

When do you feel it wouldn't make sense to pick a lock or disarm a trap?

When I'm already past it, e.g. by having taken an alternative route.

 

 

 

Does that mean the chests shouldn't have items either? Or should they teleport in your inventory because you decided to skip the dungeon.

 

wat

 

 

 

I don't want XP tied to unlocking chests but your logic is crap because you still miss out on rewards if you skip the chest so what does it matter.. Why is it okay to miss out on items / currency but not okay to skip an xp reward?

 

You don't need the XP reward to beat the game any more then you need gold or items.. you will hit level cap before the game ends.

 

 

 

 You misunderstood the post. In the backer beta, there are locks on doors too (similar to the IE games).

 

 Here's an example to clarify the original point: the cult quest in the back beta has a room with four doors. There are three of them that you can use to get in (and one to leave in order to continue to quest). You can pick the locks on any of the three doors (or use a key, if you have it) but if you're already inside there is no point in picking the locks on the other two. Same idea for traps - depending on how you entered the dungeon, you can bypass a bunch of traps by going in via a door near the entrance and then there is no need to disarm a bunch of traps that aren't in your way. 

[Gfted1]

Same idea for traps - depending on how you entered the dungeon, you can bypass a bunch of traps by going in via a door near the entrance and then there is no need to disarm a bunch of traps that aren't in your way.

That's metaknowledge. You're not going to know where trap are until you set them off or search for them. Unless you are saying that you will search until you find the traps, purposely not disarm them, and then take a completely different path. Which is weird.

[frapillo80]

I personally like the IWD philosophy on locks and traps as applied to PoE:

Locks: you risk nothing, you consume no resources (well, maybe lockpicks, is it when your skill is not high enough? not sure), your reward is the content

Traps: there is some risk, but no worse than what would happen if you don't disarm the trap, that is, things can only get better, your reward is passing safe and apparently, if you are good enough, even trap components, which is great

Non-quest fights: you take risks (possibly even of losing a companion), you lose health, you consume resources (possibly even very expensive ones), and your reward is ... uhm ... maybe a lion pelt/mane worth 10 gold if you are lucky?

 

Given the risk involved, having to choose, I would be for giving a bit of experience for disarming traps, but no for locks. Although I'm fine with no xp for either.

Edited September 23, 2014 by frapillo80

[zimcub]

I find this bestiary xp mechanic needlessly complex.

You get awarded combat xp for a while and then it suddenly stops.

And it doesn't include humanoids, because you can't learn anything from them.

.....riiiiiight.

 

Just make the quest givers and monsters give 0 xp if the quest for them has already been completed. And if you decided to just kill the monsters for the quest, then make the quest reward give the total xp, minus the xp from monsters killed.

That way you always take away the same xp from the quest no matter what.

 

It's hardly more vague than not getting any xp from humanoids for combat xp.

[Yonjuro]

 

Same idea for traps - depending on how you entered the dungeon, you can bypass a bunch of traps by going in via a door near the entrance and then there is no need to disarm a bunch of traps that aren't in your way.

That's metaknowledge. You're not going to know where trap are until you set them off or search for them. Unless you are saying that you will search until you find the traps, purposely not disarm them, and then take a completely different path. Which is weird.

 

 

 I don't mean that you can deliberately skip them, I mean that you may not find them at all.

 

 Using the same example:

 

 In the cult quest, suppose you enter the dungeon and there's a door in front of you - you go through it (if you can). The exit door to that room is open. You go through it. You disarm a bunch of traps and fight some guards. The big event happens and then you need to revisit lord whatshisname and finish the quest. You can go out a new door that becomes available from the inside or retrace your steps to get out.

 

 If you did it that way on your first play through, there are traps in the dungeon that you will never find (until your next play through when you do it a different way) because you never went anywhere near them, but that didn't take metaknowledge (which, unless you read this post, you didn't have on your first play though).

[Cantousent]

Moreover, regardless of the so clever metagame argument, there are two other possibilities. One is that you hit a room with three locked doors. You might have some doors locked and come back later, which might even be more prudent, but you don't need metaknowledge to know you get an immediate gameplay reward for going out of your way to pick all locks and are thus habituated to it. ...Or, you find the key before you find the lock and are denied experience for achieving the same thing.

[Skolinkinlot]

Aren't CRPGS at their heart, about combat? Sure theres been some games that have tried to deemphasize combat to some extent, with varying levels of success.Thats not to play down the importance of game worlds and storylines and the like. I mean take for example the HUGE posts in the forums about armor and weapon design..  combat has always been at the heart of CRPGS from the beginning. I really dont understand how getting xp for kills is degenerate.

[Gfted1]

 

 

Same idea for traps - depending on how you entered the dungeon, you can bypass a bunch of traps by going in via a door near the entrance and then there is no need to disarm a bunch of traps that aren't in your way.

That's metaknowledge. You're not going to know where trap are until you set them off or search for them. Unless you are saying that you will search until you find the traps, purposely not disarm them, and then take a completely different path. Which is weird.

 

 

 I don't mean that you can deliberately skip them, I mean that you may not find them at all.

 

 Using the same example:

 

 In the cult quest, suppose you enter the dungeon and there's a door in front of you - you go through it (if you can). The exit door to that room is open. You go through it. You disarm a bunch of traps and fight some guards. The big event happens and then you need to revisit lord whatshisname and finish the quest. You can go out a new door that becomes available from the inside or retrace your steps to get out.

 

 If you did it that way on your first play through, there are traps in the dungeon that you will never find (until your next play through when you do it a different way) because you never went anywhere near them, but that didn't take metaknowledge (which, unless you read this post, you didn't have on your first play though).

 

 

So you are saying you wont earn XP for things you don't do and places you don't go?

[Matt516]

 

I don't want XP tied to unlocking chests but your logic is crap because you still miss out on rewards if you skip the chest so what does it matter.. Why is it okay to miss out on items / currency but not okay to skip an xp reward?

 

You don't need the XP reward to beat the game any more then you need gold or items.. you will hit level cap before the game ends.

Because within the game world's logic, it makes sense to rob a chest because there might be something valuable in it, while it makes no sense to unlock a door or untrap a trap that's already behind you. I don't like incentives that nudge you towards doing things that make no sense within the game world's logic.

That's pretty much my personal criterion as well for "degenerative gameplay" (what I would call bad mechanic design) - where the in-game incentives do not reflect in-world incentives in some way.

 

Which is why I'm totally cool with bestiary XP, but not with lockpicking and trap XP. As I've mentioned before, those two lead to a situation where a "properly played" party runs around compulsively unlocking everything even if there is no realistic reason to do so.

 

TL;DR: Yay Bestiary XP, Boo Trap/Lock XP.

[prodigydancer]

Aren't CRPGS at their heart, about combat? Sure theres been some games that have tried to deemphasize combat to some extent, with varying levels of success.Thats not to play down the importance of game worlds and storylines and the like. I mean take for example the HUGE posts in the forums about armor and weapon design..  combat has always been at the heart of CRPGS from the beginning.

And your point is? Remember, PoE doesn't punish you for killing things (and there are RPGs that do punish you, e.g DX:HR).

 

---

 

I still don't understand why so many people consider combat such a chore. (And if it's fun then why is it so necessary to get XP for it?) But it's even more puzzling that the same people apparently want to make the chore practically mandatory. Talk about being masochistic...

 

Personally, I think combat is fun. In most games anyway. And when ti's not, XP tends to make it more irritating because you can't opt out.

 

 

TL;DR: Yay Bestiary XP, Boo Trap/Lock XP.

 

I agree. Just because something was implemented in BG2 doesn't necessarily mean it was good design. Besides BG2 had to use DnD character progression tables but due to the nature of the campaign the party had to gain levels extremely fast (compared to PnP). So awarding XP at ever step was practically inevitable.

 

PoE doesn't have to do that.

Edited September 23, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Namutree]

 

Because within the game world's logic, it makes sense to rob a chest because there might be something valuable in it, while it makes no sense to unlock a door or untrap a trap that's already behind you. I don't like incentives that nudge you towards doing things that make no sense within the game world's logic.

 

Maybe my thief wants some practice disarming traps. I can see it now...

 

Thief: Hey guys, lets go back and head left this time.

 

Paladin (party leader): Uhh... Why?

 

Thief: I'm pretty sure there's trap back that way. I wanna disarm it for a bit of practice.

 

Paladin: That's a little weird. How do you even know there's a trap back there.

 

Thief: The meta game god told me about.

 

Paladin: Meta game God!? How dare ruin our sacred role-play! You're greedy desire for xp has defiled our sense of immersion! All has become corrupted and gamey!

 

Thief: Don't act so holier than thou! I know what you're doing!

 

Paladin: Explain what you mean.

 

Thief: You got a +2 mace and a shield equipped, but you keep puttin' proficiency points into 2-handed sword and 2 handed weapons!

 

Paladin: So what? I've done nothing wrong...*Starts to sweat*

 

Thief: Yeah right, and I'll bet you'll act like you weren't expecting Carsomyr. You're just as bad as me!

 

Paladin: Oh come on! I can't help it! I can't possibly resist such a prize from the Meta game God. I guess I'll stop whining. Let's go get 200-xp...