Drama in indy gaming and games journalism part 2

[BruceVC]

 

<p>

 

 

@Bruce: the wording on that post seemed a bit vague so is good that you clarified. You referred to us as being the ones offended, I imagine that you're not slighted by what the SJW press has said about gamers.

Okay look I am trying to be more understanding towards the offense you guys feel around how you feel gaming journalists have treated you

 

But I'll be honest I am battling with it for two main reasons

• You guys have never cared about gaming journalists before and what they thought. You guys have always basically felt that gaming journalist are corrupt and there opinions don't matter. In the past I have used various gaming websites as a source of information and been told " LOL...why would you take that website seriously "
• I have been told numerous times that words don't matter on the Internet and people musn't get offended and people must grow think skins. How many times have I posted links about bigotry on the Internet and expected people to be horrified and the normal response is "its the Internet, deal with it"

So I see a weird inconsistency with how some of you apply this feeling of being outraged, and I don't understand it. Maybe you can explain to me now why there is such discussion about what gaming journalists have said...surly they are just words that can be ignored?

Comprehension isn't your strong suit.

 

1. There has always been a distrust of gamnng journalists, see doritopope. The difference between doritopope and catching a journalist having a personal relationship with a developer is that there wasn't a concentrated effort by the whole of gaming press to deny corruption and silence/discredit detractors after one of those instances.

 

2. There is a difference between "I0wnZU" the anonymous douchebag making empty threats and harassing someone than game journalists using their press as a means to attack people. One is an anonymous being that you can not stop or even identify, the other is in a position of authority to ok influence and inform. Reading about what a terrible misogynist dinosaur gamers are from a gaming website is going to carry a little more weight and authority than some anon in a CoD match calling me a **** bitch and informing me that he would like to **** my fat pimply ass after he uses up my dirty whore mother.

Well I am trying to comprehend your perspective but as I said I am finding it inconsistent. But thanks for responding. In response

• That's a fallacy, no gaming journalist is saying there isn't an issue with the gaming journalist industry. Even the cracked article you posted mentions this. But once again the point is that the focus around this corruption is on Zoe Quinn and her sex life instead of the real issues, see this link from 2012

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2012/10/26/all-the-pretty-doritos-how-video-game-journalism-went-off-the-rails/

 

There was very little said about this type of issue in the gaming industry, in fact it went under the radar without you guys giving it a second glance

• Okay the whole "gamers are white, male misogynists " insult from gaming journalists was a badly conceived marketing strategy which seems to have done more harm than good in the greater cause of gender equality. I don't see it like that but I accept that you guys see it like that. Point taken

Zoe Quinn's sex life brought attention to this, but to claim that it is the central focus is wrong. People aren't trying to shame her because she cheated on her boyfriend, they're upset that a gaming journalist was having a relationship with someone who the site he worked for covered. Even if he would've never wrote an article even mentioning her, the fact that there is some relationship between a journalistic entity and a subject they are supposed to be covering creates a potential conflict of interest. The focus is not on Zoe, it is on Gaming Journalism.

 

 

Okay fair enough, I am surprised that's what you genuinely feel. But I am not so arrogant to tell you what you should be thinking. If you say to me this is really about corruption in the  gaming industry and the whole Zoe incident was just a catalyst to effectively raise awareness then I believe you

 

Its interesting because we see this whole furore from a very different perspective. I don't really care what gaming journalists say about me. They are just gaming journalists who comment on a recreational hobby of mine. All I care about is there opinions on games.  I am much more concerned with RL issues around societal discrimination and bigotry. So the way Zoe was treated is more relevant to me than the perceived corruption within the gaming journalist industry

 

But I respect your opinion and what you consider is important around this development

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

My main issue is that I want a reliable source of news for the hobby I dedicate a significant amount of my time and money towards. I do not like being insulted or talked down to by the entities that are supposed to be providing me with news or that those entities have conflicts of interest regarding certain products. As it is, I do not feel I can trust their opinions on games and feel that they have an axe to grind with me because I don't agree with parts of their message.

 

As someone whose friends and family include racial minorities, homosexuals, and women, I do care about discrimination and equality. I feel that SJWs are doing more harm than good when they are too preachy about it though, and too often they tend to moralize rather than inform or gather support. I think that Feminists who want equality would find more support if they cut ties with the more insane elements of the ideology, rebranded themselves as "gender equalitists", and put a little more focus on issues faced by men. From my perspective, there needs to be a shift from focusing on specific groups to providing a blanket standard of equality to everyone.

Edited September 19, 2014 by KaineParker

[Volourn]

"Even though Quinn's critics are troglodytes disguised as functional human beings"

 

Yup. Anyone who criticizes Quinn is a trogodyte who isn't even human. Just a fake a one. Oh yeah, theya re also white male racist gamers who like to rape little girls and boys but mostly girls. LMAO

[BruceVC]

My main issue is that I want a reliable source of news for the hobby I dedicate a significant amount of my time and money towards. I do not like being insulted or talked down to by the entities that are supposed to be providing me with news or that those entities have conflicts of interest regarding certain products. As it is, I do not feel I can trust their opinions on games and feel that they have an axe to grind with me because I don't agree with parts of their message.

 

As someone whose friends and family include racial minorities, homosexuals, and women, I do care about discrimination and equality. I feel that SJWs are doing more harm than good when they are too preachy about it though, and too often they tend to moralize rather than inform or gather support. I think that Feminists who want equality would find more support if they cut ties with the more insane elements of the ideology, rebranded themselves as "gender equalitists", and put a little more focus on issues faced by men. From my perspective, there needs to be a shift from focusing on specific groups to providing a blanket standard of equality to everyone.

 

You make some reasonable points in this post, nice one

[BruceVC]

"Even though Quinn's critics are troglodytes disguised as functional human beings"

 

Yup. Anyone who criticizes Quinn is a trogodyte who isn't even human. Just a fake a one. Oh yeah, theya re also white male racist gamers who like to rape little girls and boys but mostly girls. LMAO

 

But you need to consider the context of what he is saying and the quotes he uses from social media. The comments from some  people are appalling and deserve the title 'troglodyte "

 

Its the constant crude sexual attacks that gets to me with references to Zoe. I don't think anyone on this forum would ever say that is acceptable

[kirottu]

After reading those emails this post sums up my thoughts:

 

http://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2gtjw9/my_impressions_from_reading_the_now_taken_down/

 

Also, Ben Kuchera really comes off as everything wrong in gaming journalism.

[Volourn]

"But you need to consider the context of what he is saying and the quotes he uses from social media. The comments from some  people are appalling and deserve the title 'troglodyte "

 

His context is clear. Anyone who criticizes Quinn isn't even human.  That's an asanine thing to say so stop defending it. Just like I wouldn't dfend someone who seriously threatenes to rape someone you shouldn't be defending someone who claims the 'other side' aren't even human.

 

 

Only I can do that in regards to feminists because they obviously aren't human. That's just FACT.

[Ganrich]

Awesome post, KaineParker. I agree. I would go further to say if they cannot see the issue at hand I can't trust them. It is easy enough for me to just get my reviews from a source that has taken this backlash a little more seriously, or a YouTube person like TotalBiscuit.

 

On a separate note I just want to say I condemn the attacks on ZQ almost completely. I do have issues with the situation with TFYC, and see that as shady. It isn't her place to play the gatekeeper to something promoting feminism because she disagrees with it or whatever. Especially on a crowd funding site. I also lost a lot sympathy for anything after her little article the other day. Knowing the wolves are circling, and after telling people she doesn't want her private life to be discussed publicly, she does it herself. This puts a giant target on her back for all those horrid people that were all attacking her to just keep it up. Someone crying about a burn after shoving their hand deep into the fire gets a little less sympathy for me. Many human beings are ****ty, and if you publicly call them out for it they will get all the ****tier. Perhaps she has flip flopped to be the martyr? It just seems wrong both morally and in a "something is fishy" kind of way.

 

Sarkeesian is a non-factor to me. I don't agree with her methods, but it is what it is.

 

Leigh Alexander is the only one i truly find reprehensible. She revels in treating people terribly. She can't act her age on her twitter account yet can call other people out on their man-childishness. I think she is the only one I condemn at the moment because her actions are that of a zealot. It seems a classic case of the Nietzsche quote, “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” I think she has become so hellbent on her crusade she has become what she condemns. All the while that she is acting in this way she somehow retains a news director position? Any other business would drop someone like a bad habit for insulting a fairly large portion of their demographic on a regular basis. Ah, but she is "fighting the good fight" so it is justified. Acting like poison is hardly ever the right answer when trying to preach acceptance, and it is hardly the answer in many other situations as well. "We have to be inclusive, BUT NONE OF YOU THAT DISAGREE WITH ME ARE INVITED."

Edited September 19, 2014 by Ganrich

[Blarghagh]

Its the constant crude sexual attacks that gets to me with references to Zoe. I don't think anyone on this forum would ever say that is acceptable

 

 

Not only this forum but the GamerGate movement has on large condemned the harassment and defamation of Zoe Quinn as well as Anita Sarkeesian.

 

I think where you get the movement wrong is the assertion you made earlier in the thread that the allegations against Zoe Quinn galvanized people into a movement. That's not true, at least not from my perspective as someone who supports GamerGate and NotYourShield. Most of us didn't know who Zoe Quinn was nor cared about who slept with her until Gaming Media decided to come in and completely misrepresent it as well as holding their audience responsible by making them out to be a culture that condones harassment. That action is what galvanized people, because journalists are supposed to give people the facts in a objective manner so the consumer can make their own informed decision and they completely overstepped their boundaries. There are other events that galvanized people before, such as the sacking of Jeff Gerstwinn and "DoritoGate" but most of Games Media joined in with their consumer base in condemning it, or at least owned up to it. That isn't the case here.

 

In fact, at this point the continued effort from Games Media to make this about Zoe and Anita is, in my opinion, a transparent attempt to paint targets on their heads to divert attention away from themselves because this was never really about them. It's why Kotaku posted news about a months old bomb threat against Anita just as their own writers were coming under fire (even if the source was just a ridiculous Breitbart article). It fits the narrative they create about gaming culture being a culture of violent misogynists while throwing Anita under the bus to divert attention away from the allegations against themselves. If Games Media would have stopped championing Zoe and Anita as if being harassed somehow gives you credibility and censoring all other viewpoints, and instead actually owned up to and reasonably responded to the allegations against them (like The Escapist did), then people would have left the two of them alone weeks ago. I think some of these people, especially Leigh Alexander and Ben Kuchera, share a small measure of responsibility for the harassment of these two women. They have consistently painted targets on them for the trolls to go to so they could hide behind them.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Somehow, there is this notion that "when feminists say XY is sexist, they imply you're a horrible human being if you enjoy it". It's the root of a lot of hostility that could be avoided by making it clear that liking problematic things doesn't say anything about the consumer's character.

 

So I guess all those "Gamers are dead" articles describing us as neckbeards and the horrors that come out of Leigh Alexander's mouth were about Parcheesi enthusiasts. They all share the same politics and the same views, just look at some of Anita's tweets regarding gamers and what she thinks of them. 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs#t=1195

[Malcador]

"But you need to consider the context of what he is saying and the quotes he uses from social media. The comments from some  people are appalling and deserve the title 'troglodyte "

 

His context is clear. Anyone who criticizes Quinn isn't even human.  That's an asanine thing to say so stop defending it. Just like I wouldn't dfend someone who seriously threatenes to rape someone you shouldn't be defending someone who claims the 'other side' aren't even human.

 

 

Only I can do that in regards to feminists because they obviously aren't human. That's just FACT.

There was a funny article a while back saying that you shouldn't criticize women online, even if you think it is warranted as that makes the Internet unsafe for them

 

http://youtu.be/HSNFZYvgVY4

Edited September 19, 2014 by Malcador

[NWN_babaYaga]

When something smells and sounds like nazi tactic (dismissing any opposing opinion by defamation aka destroy the reputation of a person) then it must be a nazi. It doesnt matter what specific rhetoric is used to disguise it as a way of fighing injustice. The result is what matters! The way these so called SJW´s are using language is like a cloaking device to cover up their totalitarian mindset. When the tyranny of fascism comes back it will be the so called anti-fascism!

 

And you will never get these people to make up their mind what they realy represent. A frog in the well only knows the interior of the well...

 

The first step of the totalitarian mindset is by now using group preasure and economic death. But in the future the switch to the hardcore stuff is undoubtly on their plan (ukraine....). Not of these frontfreaks, but of the ones behind all that censorship and governmental tyranny, SJW´´s are just the usefull ... you know!

[Amentep]

 

Her work is the politics of a different group of manchildren that want the other manchildren to be polite and share.

 

 

That's surprisingly accurate, actually. But isn't the group of manchildren endorsing sharing and politeness an all-around nicer company than the other group holed up in their treehouse?

 

Given the vitrol both sides have used harrassing people because they don't support their particular "side", it seems to me its a case of both groups of man/woman/other-children holed up in their treehouse arguing which treehouse is better with a larger, diverse middle group caught in the crossfire.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Amentep

[JadedWolf]

Honestly, I haven't actually followed much of this as neither side of this "debate" has really made a good impression on me, and quite honestly websites like Kotaku and Rock, Paper, Shotgun have always seemed to have this weird agenda which was off-putting to me.

 

But here's an article I that I thought was actually interesting and worth reading: http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/01/the-gamer-is-dead-long-live-the-gamer/

 

Now, can anyone recommend me some good gaming websites that don't have their own agenda they try to push on you and are reasonably free of gaming corruption?

[Fighter]

Lets get something straight about criticizing Zoe Quinn. I rarely talk about her personally but let me get something of my chest since the subject of her "troglodyte" critics -- sweet generalization here again, somehow the same people never want to take things 'in context' when an 'oppressed' group is being generalised like so -- came up.

 

There are some insults and threats that are truly excessive. Are all of them deserved? Nah. Is she given too much importance in the gaming journalism story? Probably. Is it perhaps unfair that it was her that started everything and not a subject more deserving? Probably.

 

But lets get something straight. Zoe Quinn is a terrible person, in fact if this forum allowed I would use a few choice terms to describe her. Not because she is female but because she earned it. She (and her cronies) was a major nuisance for TFYC over bull**** SJW reasons that didn't even make sense, she created Wizardchan harassment story out of her butthole, she "raped" her boyfriend according to her own world-view (which says a thing or two about all that feminist ideology she'd like to push down other people's throats but not her own) and whatever you may think of how the guy acted Zoe Quinn hardly has any moral authority not only over him but anyone really.

 

It actually is not that surprising that one of them annoying SJW pricks would irritate people enough to be the final straw as opposed to some 'real' corruption that people like to point to in the, "Why now because a woman is involved and not then?" context.

 

We now live in this environment where everyone has to pussyfoot around snowflake bitches like her because she has a vagina. Like her vagina is the vagina of every woman and any attack on a woman is de facto considered an attack on all women. This is just as sexist as anything out there.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Fighter

[kirottu]

Milo Yinna... Yiannopopo... Yiannopoulos targeted by horrible online trolls!

https://twitter.com/Nero/status/512950178916339712/photo/1

[Fighter]

This is some dumb trolling. I would be quite pleased with free useful things even if it is just toilet rolls.

[Blarghagh]

Fighter, I respect your opinion and you have a point but I wish you would make it in a more helpful manner and keep to facts that are actually pertinent. Calmer minds prevail. Personally, I consider her to be a pretty awful person based on the evidence I've seen. But that opinion is completely unimportant to the issues at hand and so is whether or not Zoe Quinn slept with journalists. The issue there is not Zoe, but the journalists who knowingly did that and thus created a conflict of interest. Publicly attacking her for cheating on her boyfriend? Overstepping bounds - that's not our business and is just ****-shaming, plain and simple.

 

Now for the fact of the TFYC case that actually affects games? That one's pertinent. If anything, she should never be allowed near a Game Jam again for that alone. Even so, none of it actually excuses harassment.

 

Anyone post this yet? A bunch of different perspectives from Game Developers (anonymous or otherwise) and other involved (such as the actual originator of NotYourShield, who is NOT from 4chan): http://www.nichegamer.net/2014/09/real-gamedevs-sound-off-regarding-the-gamergate-controversy/

Edited September 19, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Malcador]

https://archive.today/Lf3Yp

 

Huh.

 

Hello! The RPS Supporter Program is here. A premium version of the site for those who love it best.

 

Becoming an RPS Supporter means getting access to a whole new daily stream of writing from your favourite RPS scribes, appearing right in your main feed when you’re logged in, as well as helping us work on all-new reader-funded projects. The Supporter Program is additional to the existing site, so the current crop of news, reviews and features remains unchanged. The Supporter program simply gives you more, if you want it.

 

Not only that, becoming a Supporter means you’ll get regular free gifts, which are currently money off some games over at GOG.com, and a ludicrously gorgeous Horace hat for Team Fortress 2. IMPORTANT: gifts are supplied on a first-come, first-served basis, and are not guaranteed due to limited numbers. However, any new gifts – which are set to appear regularly throughout the year – will be added automatically to any active account.

[Orogun01]

 

BTW, how do actually expect them to further the cause of gender equality with the type of behavior they've shown in the past. They seem aggressive rather than argumentative, despite there being calls for a debate a la "Atheist vs Creationists". It seems to me that they have a lot of focus on content control rather than faith on the strength of their message and at times they even contradict themselves or go against their values.

 

I always regarded them as being ethically weak but I'm genuinely curious as to what your opinion is on what these people are doing to further gender equality.

 

Just to be clear do you mean feminists like Anita or gaming journalists and there stand on this whole issue?

 

On the contributions of feminists like Anita to feminism and gender equality.

[Orogun01]

 

 

Somehow, there is this notion that "when feminists say XY is sexist, they imply you're a horrible human being if you enjoy it". It's the root of a lot of hostility that could be avoided by making it clear that liking problematic things doesn't say anything about the consumer's character.

 

So I guess all those "Gamers are dead" articles describing us as neckbeards and the horrors that come out of Leigh Alexander's mouth were about Parcheesi enthusiasts. They all share the same politics and the same views, just look at some of Anita's tweets regarding gamers and what she thinks of them. 

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs#t=1195

 

What? you're just confirming what I said, either we are misguided and ignorant or aware and misogynistic. She just tried to fit us into her schema, guess which of the two you are if you like sexualised women in games? 

[Fighter]

Fighter, I respect your opinion and you have a point but I wish you would make it in a more helpful manner and keep to facts that are actually pertinent. Calmer minds prevail. Personally, I consider her to be a pretty awful person based on the evidence I've seen. But that opinion is completely unimportant to the issues at hand and so is whether or not Zoe Quinn slept with journalists. The issue there is not Zoe, but the journalists who knowingly did that and thus created a conflict of interest. Publicly attacking her for cheating on her boyfriend? Overstepping bounds - that's not our business and is just ****-shaming, plain and simple.

 

Now for the fact of the TFYC case that actually affects games? That one's pertinent. If anything, she should never be allowed near a Game Jam again for that alone. Even so, none of it actually excuses harassment.

 

Just like to make one thing clear. I'm quiet ok with sl*ts. I'm not shaming her for liking to have sex. I am shaming her for being a massive hypocrite. She preaches loyalty to one partner which she does not practice. And the relevance that I attach to this is that this is a person who is in a position to dictate moral standards to other people and it is relevant to gaming journalism because she's their victimised hero posterchild and her position may be even stronger in those circles.

[Keyrock]

A large problem with this whole thing, as with so many issues, is that the moderate and open minded people tend to get drowned out by the zealots on both sides.  The zealots are not only the ones who yell the loudest, they get further amplified because they are the ones the media focuses on because loud obnoxious people are the ones that sell newspapers garner viewers get clicks.  It's the same reason why extremely uninhibited and/or opinionated people are the ones specifically chosen for reality shows, because these are the types of people that are likely to get into controversial situations that create a buzz.  So you have moderate, open minded people on both sides that not only get ignored by the mainstream, they also immediately get demonized by the zealots on the opposing side as soon as they make a statement, no matter how well thought out, rational, or even offering compromise, that conflicts with their strict ideology as either misogynists or fascists, depending on which side of the fence they happen to be on.  So, according to mainstream media, everyone is either a disgusting misogynist misanthrope that wants to kick all the vaginas out of their boys' club or a power hungry harpy seeking to force feed everyone their own totalitarian ideology.  While both those extremes do, sadly, exist, along with people attaching themselves to either side with no intention other than to gain some spotlight and make a profit off this, there are also tons of people out there being more rational about this and saying "We just want to see more diverse games out there so that there are more gaming experiences out there that cater to things other than just stereotypical male power trip fantasies" and "We're fine with there being games for all audiences, we just don't want the typical male power trip fantasies to become abolished or shamed out of existence because we frankly enjoy that sort of thing from time to time and there's really nothing wrong with that."  Sadly, the voices of the moderates tend to get drowned out.

[Blarghagh]

Fair enough, Fighter. I think the issues are more with the journalists who support her than her own transgressions, but I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

I wanted to share this perspective from the link I posted earlier:

 

 

First off, I should say that I’m not actually technically a game developer. I am a computer science major going into my third year of study, with an intent to make video games in the future. Video games have brought me so much happiness and fun over the years, that it is my dream to bring just a little bit of happiness and fun to other people by making some of my own. I have made a few “games”, but they were never published and were never really all that good. In that sense, then, my opinion is really only as that of a potential future game developer, so I don’t expect it to hold as much weight as ACTUAL game developers.

All that being said, though, I would like to express my opinion on the matter. In terms of politics, I am a bisexual, male-to-female transgender, and also a conservative. No, that’s not a paradox, either. I don’t let my politics leak very often, since I think it’s rude to do so in public, and also because I live in California, one of the most liberal states in America. I have experienced harassment and such for my political opinions in the past, so I’ve learned to keep my mouth shut unless I know the people around me are also conservatively-inclined. Aside from an English professor failing a paper I wrote because he felt that it was “not progressively-minded enough” (His exact words), I have never experienced any significant “oppression” due to my political beliefs.

In speaking with some of my computer science professors, though, I’ve learned that I might have quite a bit in store for me. Most of them are conservatively inclined as well, and even though none of them have worked in the games development industry, many of them report experiences such as “losing [their] job because [they] had the wrong bumper sticker on [their] car”, or receiving a pay cut because the wrong person caught them leaking their politics.

For a long time, I thought to myself that I would be able to avoid this, that I could keep it from affecting me. I’m not so sure now, after the past few weeks. The whole #GamerGate thing, the way indie devs have been being treated for just expressing their heartfelt, genuine opinions on matters, has shaken my confidence that I’ll be able to make good games for people to have fun with and play without someone deciding to harass and bully me for my politics.

I don’t want to push my politics through my video games. All I want is to make good, fun video games for people to enjoy. That is seriously all that I want to do as a game developer. But I’m increasingly feeling like I won’t be allowed to disconnect my politics from my video games, no matter how hard I try.

This is going to sound silly and childish, but this whole incident has seriously made me reconsider my dream of becoming a video game developer, since I’m not even sure if I’ll be able to make the games I want anymore. I’m afraid that I’ll be harassed and bullied for not following somebody else’s agenda, when all I want to do is make fun, enjoyable video games for people to be happy with. I know it’s stupid to be afraid of that, but I genuinely am.

I’m hoping, then , that #GamerGate will be able to make the game development industry more genuinely inclusive by the time I get there – Not just inclusive of all races, all gender identities, all sexual orientations, but also of all political ideologies, all religions, and all life philosophies. Inclusive in the sense that people like me, whose political opinions differ from the great majority of video game developers, are still allowed to do the job of video game developers: Making great games, for people to have fun with, and to make other people happy.

That’s all I really want to do, so I hope that by the time I enter the industry, that’s what I’ll be allowed to do.

Read more at http://www.nichegamer.net/2014/09/real-gamedevs-sound-off-regarding-the-gamergate-controversy/#rT011Xo6cKUsx75B.99

[Fighter]

Fair enough, Fighter. I think the issues are more with the journalists who support her than her own transgressions, but I guess we can agree to disagree.

 

Well I agree that she's far less important than the journalists.