The experience system

[PrimeJunta]

I'm sure as heck waiting for some feedback on the last straw I'm grasping at right now: the sub-quest xp. How often and when?

 

At least it's in. For the ogre quest there's XP at least for entering the cave, then for dealing with the ogre. AFAICT you don't actually get any more XP for reporting back to the farmer, you just get the money and the gun, and Piglet of course.

 

Yeah, I'm not surprised. I've heard a lot from people who want Kill XP and next to nothing from people who don't. Do these people actually exist?

 

We're just bored of the ... "discussion."

 

@TrueMenace @Ink Blot The problem with your proposed system is that (a) it ends up in the same place as quest XP, but (b) it's a lot more complicated. You'll have to keep track of which monster "belongs" to which quest(s), account for situations when someone kills them before any of the quest(s) have triggered, and so on. In addition, it'll make the reward system feel inconsistent: you'll get an XP reward for killing these beetles now, but if you kill the other identical beetles on the way back after you've filled your XP meter by persuading the ogre to become a vegetarian, you won't get any XP.

 

I.e., it would be significantly more work to implement and especially test (how do you test for all possible orders in which players could take on quests and kill monsters?) and it would lead to a system that will feel erratic an unpredictable even if it works perfectly since sometimes you would get XP for killing things, and sometimes not.

Edited August 28, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Uomoz]

People who agree with the current implementation, like me, are way less vocal, as it happens in all the discussions in the world.

[Sartoris]

I propose a pretty unorthodox way on solving the "XP" issue. Take a look boys.

 

First, let's take that Ogre quest as an example and say it gives 1000 XP upon completion. Now follow me here, carefully.

 

Anything you do towards the goal of the Ogre quest gives XP incrementally and caps at 1000 XP. Let's say you manage to only do conversations to complete the quest. Then all those conversations will give you XP that ultimately add up to 1000 XP.

 

However, let's say someone else decided to fight everything in their path, all those battles they fought would add up to 1000 XP eventually. 

 

Oh, you're that player that fought through to get the Ogre, but was able to convince him of avoiding a fight? Well bravo, you are rewarded with XP too. You get XP from your combat and conversation...still adds up to 1000 XP!

 

So you see, NO ONE LOSES in this system. 

 

Basically, each quest has a "XP Meter" that fills until you max out its meter which essentially means you completed the quest. You can fill that meter with anything that rewards XP, so combat, disarming traps, conversations, etc. are all valid means of obtaining the necessary XP to complete it. However, the ball is in your court of how you decide to complete the quest. Just know that you will get XP from WHATEVER you do.

 

A great thing about this XP system is that you can't "game" it in a sense that you will do EVERYTHING to get as much XP as you can. It's balanced in the sense that the quest can only give a certain amount. 

 

What do you guys think about this system? It doesn't really seem hard to implement!

 

I would be fine with this system. But I foresee some issues in implementation. Nevertheless, I would like it much better than quest-only.

[Yonjuro]

 

I propose a pretty unorthodox way on solving the "XP" issue. Take a look boys.

 

First, let's take that Ogre quest as an example and say it gives 1000 XP upon completion. Now follow me here, carefully.

 

Anything you do towards the goal of the Ogre quest gives XP incrementally and caps at 1000 XP. Let's say you manage to only do conversations to complete the quest. Then all those conversations will give you XP that ultimately add up to 1000 XP.

 

However, let's say someone else decided to fight everything in their path, all those battles they fought would add up to 1000 XP eventually. 

 

Oh, you're that player that fought through to get the Ogre, but was able to convince him of avoiding a fight? Well bravo, you are rewarded with XP too. You get XP from your combat and conversation...still adds up to 1000 XP!

 

So you see, NO ONE LOSES in this system. 

 

Basically, each quest has a "XP Meter" that fills until you max out its meter which essentially means you completed the quest. You can fill that meter with anything that rewards XP, so combat, disarming traps, conversations, etc. are all valid means of obtaining the necessary XP to complete it. However, the ball is in your court of how you decide to complete the quest. Just know that you will get XP from WHATEVER you do.

 

A great thing about this XP system is that you can't "game" it in a sense that you will do EVERYTHING to get as much XP as you can. It's balanced in the sense that the quest can only give a certain amount. 

 

What do you guys think about this system? It doesn't really seem hard to implement!

 

I would be fine with this system. But I foresee some issues in implementation. Nevertheless, I would like it much better than quest-only.

 

 

 

 Err, this is quest only but disguised as kill XP.

 

 In BG, you get 650 XP for killing a wolf.

 

 In the disguised quest XP system sometimes you get 650 other times nothing because the meter filled up. 

 

 If the encounters were designed so that the sum of the kill XP was always less than or equal to the quest XP, then at least you would get an XP reward for each kill. But, it wasn't designed that way. If it had been, there would have been another ****storm when people moved the difficulty slider to a harder mode and now got less XP per kill (because there are more creatures on harder modes).

 

This is only one of the problems with this scheme - there are more if you think about it. They stem from the basic problem is that it is a pretend kill XP system and not a real one.

[sodaTwo]

*snip*

 

Why is there not a very high bar for changing these kind of core mechanics? Wouldn't it just be easier to stick to what is known to work (even if its not perfect) so that the development team can instead commit more resources to producing fun and engaging content?

 

This is pretty much where my last post at the very start of these forums was left of. I believe that most backers of project eternity wanted more and new content of the same style of game. Far to much focus have been on new races and mechanics, without anybody asking for it.

[Caladian]

I hate getting xp off of beetles, and am glad there isn't combat xp. 

 

That being said, it should be slightly diversified.

Keep the Quest XP

Add in:

discovering XP

Killing rare mobs XP

Achievement XP

 

For Example, the Ogre Cave:

Get discovery XP for finding it, getting rare mob xp for killing it, and quest xp for turning in the head.  Instead of right now, only getting quest xp for finding it and for killing it.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Ribbing Josh or any attempts at Being Josh Sawyer, getting inside his head and hunching around on 7 1/2 floor are futile.

And like others have said, he's absolutely great at what he's doing. Fallout: New Vegas alone says it all.

 

It also bears repeating, as someone that's modded CRPGs a lot: It's all within the realms of clear possibility to insert an xp system of the kind found in the IE games before their estimated ship date at the end of this year. Don't believe anybody telling you otherwise.

 

We can only go on what we see:

-This is perhaps the most discussed topic of them all since the beta released (and it was certainly discussed intensively before that in waves)

-It is one of the very few that Josh and others have avoided (Sking is an exception to the rule)

-They haven't been entirely forthright with this (Like MC wrote: They've almost "snuck it under the radar.") I have literally received very upset emails from KS-backers of all tiers on this very issue

-Their only reply (Sking) to having it retro-fitted now as a toggable xp system option, even with the help of volunteer modders, was dismissed as something that can be added by modders after the game is released

 

This, I believe, means either one of two things: 

1) They are still discussing this in house over at Obsidian, and they are working on a sustainable solution, which will satisfy both camps of all the thousands of backers, believing that it's important to keep all of their fans happy

2) They are dead set on this. In fact, it's so important that in this very case, they stick with their vision of reward incentives for the game, and any feedback is ignored

Edited August 28, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Mayama]

Do we really need another thread deticated to this topic?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Do we really need another thread deticated to this topic?

No please. This one, started by a moderator, will suffice.

[Monte Carlo]

Do we really need another thread deticated to this topic?

 

Why post in it?

[Mayama]

 

Do we really need another thread deticated to this topic?

 

Why post in it?

 

Because it slowly turned into captain ahab chasing the white whale of kill-xp. You wont get it, like some other things it wont change no matter how long you discuss it. I agree that it is disheartening to see thing not in the game that you personaly really like but at this point it doesnt matter anymore. Aim your effort at something that is not set in stone, deal with it and move along.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Mayama

[swordofthesith]

Here is one of my major concerns with the quest only xp system. It can lead to the player feeling like they should only experience content if there is a quest directly associated with their current activity. I had this thought initially while reading Sensuki's comments about the wolf encounter in this thread.

 

 

It is easy enough for the PoE developers to provide exploration incentives outside of main or secondary quest lines. Rare items, crafting components and unique item drops are just three compelling incentives PoE developers can deploy to give us compelling reasons to wander off the beaten track and explore the world they have created. 

Edited August 28, 2014 by swordofthesith

[Immortalis]

Do we really need another thread deticated to this topic?

 

Sorry to ruin your forum with our useless opinions

 

 

 

 

Do we really need another thread deticated to this topic?

 

Why post in it?

 

Because it slowly turned into captain ahab chasing the white whale of kill-xp. You wont get it, like some other things it wont change no matter how long you discuss it. I agree that it is disheartening to see thing not in the game that you personaly really like but at this point it doesnt matter anymore. Aim your effort at something that is not set in stone, deal with it and move along.

 

 

People like discussing it.. can you stop derailing the thread.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Immortalis

[Headbomb]

 

For Example, the Ogre Cave:

Get discovery XP for finding it, getting rare mob xp for killing it, and quest xp for turning in the head.  Instead of right now, only getting quest xp for finding it and for killing it.

 

Bad example, because then you get more XP for the violent path than the alternative path (convincing the Ogre to leave). Better example would be Discovery XP for the Cave, Quest XP for dealing with the Ogre (however way you choose), and Quest XP for turning in the quest (in whatever state it happens to be) to the farmer.

 

Those taking the violent path gets a rare component (Ogre Blood), those letting the Ogre get fuzzy feelings + some kind of reputation boost + Ogre's alive and might be encountered later, with a reward of some kind (gold, information, item, you name it). Or maybe in this case, the rewards are asymetrical, and those killing the Ogre get the blood, and those not killing the Ogre miss out on it because you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Tim Cain in Update #7, PoE:

 "For many people, an RPG is really defined by its combat. These people spend most of their time killing things and taking their loot, and leveling up is just a means to kill bigger things and get better loot. But for other people, an RPG is about the elements of the game they experience when not in combat. It's about the NPC's they talk with, the places they travel to, and the choices they make, including the choice to avoid combat altogether."

 

This clearly shows that OE are aware of this dichotomy, but I think they are over-emphasizing the divide. I can't speak for everybody else, of course, but isn't the beauty of the IE CRPGs, their fantastic offering of being both the RPGs Tim Cain describe above at once?

I'm also happy to see that it is acknowledged that an RPG is defined by its combat, mainly killing things, loot, and levelling up, since sometimes that doesn't count, or get thrown on some imaginary ARPG scrap heap. Any IE successor really must be about both, and Obsidian new this from the get-go, thankfully.

 

Tim Cain, Update #11, PoE:

"we are going to design the enemy encounters to be ever-increasing challenges, so that one way of fighting won't carry you through every encounter. You will be forced to mix it up a bit, tactically speaking, and use all of your combat skills to make it through to the end of the game."

 

Tim Cain, Update #22, PoE:

"

rjshae asks...

Back in the BG series, experience growth was relatively slow and it felt like an accomplishment to reach a new level. Since then, D&D v3.5 rules came out and level up began to feel almost like a cheesy accomplishment that didn't require much effort. That has become the trend in modern games: leveling up after every few battles. I have to wonder how this will be handled in PE? It sounds like Obsidian wants to return to the style of the BG series, which would seems to entail a return to slower level progress. If they do allow a more rapid level up, I hope they tone down the power growth rate so that lower level monsters remain a challenge for longer periods.

We are working hard to make Project Eternity revive the spirit of the older IE games, and this includes making leveling up an important accomplishment, one that makes your character feel substantially more powerful afterward. I agree that frequent level-ups make the event feel less special, so we plan to space out these events over the course of our storyline. The first few level-ups will occur relatively early in the game, but the pacing of the subsequent level-ups will be much slower.

For people who enjoy level-ups, they are free to use our Adventurer's Hall to swap out new companions frequently, so they are always leveling up new characters to use in later parts of the story. For people who aren't sure what character classes they will want to have available in the end game, it's always nice to have the choice of having all of them."

 

On the stuff high-lighted in red: I suspect I may have misunderstood that, and I'm most likely not alone. Re-reading it, it can be interpreted as xp for levelling up only occurring along the quest lines at certain points, like we see in the beta, and that from mid-game to late-game, it will be really far in-between those quest xp moments. This is not objective xp or quest xp, but rather story xp, in a way.

On the stuff high-lighted in green: That's a weird remark, really. *Raises hand slowly and looks around* "I enjoy level-ups..."

No, seriously, is Tim implying that you get to level up more often through some revolving door hireling business going on in the inns? It seems like it: one thing, though - there aren't any more xp to dish out, so it will definitely not work that way. If you shift companions or self-made characters from the adv hall, you'll have them under-levelled (unless they automagically level up with you, like in NWN2 - which I didn't like that much).

Edited August 28, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Zansatsu]

 

Here is one of my major concerns with the quest only xp system. It can lead to the player feeling like they should only experience content if there is a quest directly associated with their current activity. I had this thought initially while reading Sensuki's comments about the wolf encounter in this thread.

 

 

It is easy enough for the PoE developers to provide exploration incentives outside of main or secondary quest lines. Rare items, crafting components and unique item drops are just three compelling incentives PoE developers can deploy to give us compelling reasons to wander off the beaten track and explore the world they have created. 

 

 

I agree this could work. But it has been stated that all items will be hand placed, so they never change.  So once everyone knows where everything is again there is still no reason to go exploring anymore. Someone will play this game, find everything, and put out a guide in 2 weeks. Now I can simply search for the items I'm interested in and go solely for them. I don't need Combat XP, but random loot and other incentives still need to be looked at. Otherwise there will be very little reason to go off the main path especially if I'm not a crafter.  Then there is a giant game out there built with a lot of nothing which seems like a shame. I know there are some of you who don't care about exploration but I personally want to be encouraged to explore the world and for me animal parts isn't incentive enough. That is disappointing.

[Zansatsu]

Something like a datacron system from Swtor, or a sky shards in ESO would make a lot of sense.  You could have things called Soul Orbs that grant different types of mild bonuses, from improved stealth, bartering, accuracy, diplomacy, all of which would be relevant and a fun perk to boost no matter what type of character you are building. Drop in a few Random rare creature Spawns, and randomize some of the loot and I would be very content.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Zansatsu

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I can't wait for a game guide to come out with all the locations of loot and enemies on every map. The optimal way of handling quests. And also the minimum stats you need for different things, like lock picking.

 

Frustrating when you spend hours fighting your way through Dyrford crossing, Dyrford Ruins and come up in the tower in the town in the locked room and your rogue is 1 or 2 points below the minimum lockpicking skill to get out of the tower. And then you have to back track through Dyrford ruins, Dyrford crossing to get back to the town because you never got 1 point of experience and never levelled up. What a waste of time. No other option like breaking the door down. Nope, need to back track through the previous maps. And when I did see the Lord to hand in the quest about her 'daughter' I never received any xp. The same with handing in the quest for the guys just outside of dyrfood. I let the Orlan go and reported back, I was honest and they instigated a fight and I killed them. No XP whatsoever. I have no idea how you get xp from those quests or if my game was just bugged. Or if there is a 'right way' to get xp from those quests.

 

I'll be avoiding combat and exploration like the plague unless there's some uber item to get or if it's quest related. The enemy AI is laughable though. People complain about the IE games with exploitable AI, PoE is a shocker. I know it's a Beta, but I can't see the AI being dramatically improved in a couple of months. I made a post about it some time ago and I'm using the same strategy that I posted before. Also, what I found funny is if a feral druid throws a ranged spell at you, you can run away before he gets to your party and you can 'wait out' the status effects. And then go back in and kill him. But yeah, so many AI exploits.

 

There really is no point to combat in this game and no point in exploration. One of the things I did enjoy was clearing the fog of war in the IE games, not with PoE. The fog of war can stay there if I know there's nothing worthwhile to get.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Zansatsu: As a fellow exploration lover, those are really cool ideas to build some reward systems on, and they could very well work for PoE - even though they aren't spiritual successor-stuff, if you get my drift.

[DnaCowboy]

I am so shocked to discover that you receive no exp from combat, this takes so much away from the game. SO much.

Combat has just as much relevance as questing and deserves exp for winning hard-won battles.

We need a poll as a matter of urgency.

 

Mark my words, without combat exp the immersion will fall away and what could have been such a great game will fall by the wayside.

Edited August 28, 2014 by DnaCowboy

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

Frustrating when you spend hours fighting your way through Dyrford crossing, Dyrford Ruins and come up in the tower in the town in the locked room and your rogue is 1 or 2 points below the minimum lockpicking skill to get out of the tower. And then you have to back track through Dyrford ruins, Dyrford crossing to get back to the town because you never got 1 point of experience and never levelled up. What a waste of time. No other option like breaking the door down. Nope, need to back track through the previous maps. And when I did see the Lord to hand in the quest about her 'daughter' I never received any xp. The same with handing in the quest for the guys just outside of dyrfood. I let the Orlan go and reported back, I was honest and they instigated a fight and I killed them. No XP whatsoever. I have no idea how you get xp from those quests or if my game was just bugged. Or if there is a 'right way' to get xp from those quests.

 

 

That shares a lot of traits and events with my playthrough, which I simply stopped, because it all didn't make sense any longer.

[IndiraLightfoot]

DnaCowboy: I did make one (it was closed down because of the heated debate, heh). You can find it under Combat and Mechanics. Merely 10% out of 200+ peeps wanted the system that's in now: quest xp.

Edited August 28, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Zansatsu]

Zansatsu: As a fellow exploration lover, those are really cool ideas to build some reward systems on, and they could very well work for PoE - even though they aren't spiritual successor-stuff, if you get my drift.

 

This already doesn't feel like a spiritual successor to me so shoot, I'm just spitballing things that would get me more excited since the XP system is not up for debate. But thanks.

[DnaCowboy]

Guys, here is the definitive poll on whether the backer wants combat exp or not

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68043-do-you-want-experience-from-combat/

Edited August 28, 2014 by DnaCowboy

[Caladian]

 

For Example, the Ogre Cave:

Get discovery XP for finding it, getting rare mob xp for killing it, and quest xp for turning in the head.  Instead of right now, only getting quest xp for finding it and for killing it.

 

Bad example, because then you get more XP for the violent path than the alternative path (convincing the Ogre to leave). Better example would be Discovery XP for the Cave, Quest XP for dealing with the Ogre (however way you choose), and Quest XP for turning in the quest (in whatever state it happens to be) to the farmer.

 

Those taking the violent path gets a rare component (Ogre Blood), those letting the Ogre get fuzzy feelings + some kind of reputation boost + Ogre's alive and might be encountered later, with a reward of some kind (gold, information, item, you name it). Or maybe in this case, the rewards are asymetrical, and those killing the Ogre get the blood, and those not killing the Ogre miss out on it because you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

 

Yes, that is even better.  Maybe get the rare mob XP then for that one spider though.