Sensuki's Suggestions #013: Take out the trash in the Dyrford Crossing

[Immortalis]

Fluffle's got a point. 

 

However, I think the newfound need for every 'trash' encounter to have an underlying reason or reward is a direct result of the 'no XP for kills' decision. Now, let's not let this devolve into a discussion about that (which can be found here instead) but can we at least talk about the effect its having on traveling through areas like this, and the apparent need to 'spice up' each individual encounter that it necessitates? Otherwise it becomes pointless. 

 

Maybe the question is better worded like this: even if every fight with a pack of wolves or beetles has loot or story reasons or some other incentive, is that enough? For your tastes, that is. Just wondering. I'm kind of on the fence, myself.

 

 

Well JE Sawyer has clearly stated that bribing players to do combat is degenerative gameplay.. it means the combat sucked and wasn't fun.. Which means every wolf and beetle encounter is amazing on it's own.. you don't need rewards of any kind.

 

If you don't like it then don't play the game. This is literally his words not mine.

 

 

More Accurately:

JE Sawyer @ SA Forums

 

This raise the problem of how do you reward any sort of devious thinking or extra effort on the player's part?

 

If it is not rewarding enough to play on its own, stop playing our terrible game.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Immortalis

[Sensuki]

Josh has a lot of funny beliefs and I don't necessarily agree with all of them.

 

The fact that your avatar is a picture of Baldur's Gate with Degenerative Gameplay with a teardrop over it does not help you come across as a person to take seriously when talking about this subject

Edited August 27, 2014 by Sensuki

[Tartantyco]

Well JE Sawyer has clearly stated that bribing players to do combat is degenerative gameplay.. it means the combat sucked and wasn't fun.. Which means every wolf and beetle encounter is amazing on it's own.. you don't need rewards of any kind.

 

 

The point, Immortalis, is that you don't have to fight the wolves. The encounter doesn't have to be fun on its own. If there is kill-XP involved you will fight them for the XP. If there is not kill-XP involved you leave the wolves alone, like a reasonable person would do.

[Elerond]

Environmental narrative is important to make world feel 'real'. This isn't depended on any way what xp or any other mechanics game have or not have.

 

Of course developers can drop random enemies in maps randomly and players themselves invent better or worse narratives why those enemies are there, but if developers put at least some effort in what kind narratives their environment and encounter placements tell then game will offer much consistent experience for all the players and therefore in my opinion will be much better. 

 

In my opinion Baldur's Gate used excellently it environment and encounters to tell narratives that made game much more immersive to me, which is why I hope that thins will be similar in PoE, which is why I suggested putting clear visual clue why wolves are in the tower and replacing beetles with bandits, as I can't invent any reason why beetles would terrorize a road, but I can invent multiple reasons why bandit group would do that. 

[Immortalis]

The fact that your avatar is a picture of Baldur's Gate with Degenerative Gameplay with a teardrop over it does not help you come across as a person to take seriously when talking about this subject

 

Sorry I can't match the calibur of such an esteemed codex member.. 

[Sensuki]

You seem more Codexian than me the way you keep attacking me

[Immortalis]

You seem more Codexian than me the way you keep attacking me

 

I never attacked you once.. the last post you quoted wasn't even directed to you.. you are the only one "attacking"

Edited August 27, 2014 by Immortalis

[Stun]

Just ignore the troll, people.

No, I think I'll give him a like for his *meaningful*, design observations.

[drgonzo]

That's funny I've heard most people saying the contrary. Baldur's Gate 1 Wilderness areas were awesome. My gripe with them is the lack of quests. There is only one (sometimes two) minor quests in each area.Most of the areas actually have plenty of encounters, even if a lot of them are minor ones.

 

Best part of BG1.

[Gfted1]

If you don't like it then don't play the game. This is literally his words not mine.

 

 

More Accurately:

JE Sawyer @ SA Forums

 

 

This raise the problem of how do you reward any sort of devious thinking or extra effort on the player's part?

 

 

If it is not rewarding enough to play on its own, stop playing our terrible game.

 

 

Classy. I guess it sure is easy to be cavalier when your pockets are already full of everyone cash.

[Shadenuat]

I mostly think from world building perspective. I think it's fun when NPCs run around roads, that reinforces your feeling that something is happening between cities - trade or some other way of cooperation. At the same time, monsters lurking somewhere inside their lairs and being harder to get to makes you explore more, unlike when you are basically forced to go through some beetles, wolves and spiders to reach your destination (Ogre).

 

Lorewise all these creatures might as well have a reason to be there. If you kill them and read Encyclopedia, you'll find out what an actual forgotten dirt**** place Aedyr (or Dyrwood, names just don't stick with me) is, and that beetles and all the angry fauna is a part of local charm. They grow different elements on their shells (wood&stone) and mimic the rocks and other stuff btw, maybe that's how they hunt near roads.

[Stun]

In my opinion Baldur's Gate used excellently it environment and encounters to tell narratives that made game much more immersive to me, which is why I hope that thins will be similar in PoE, which is why I suggested putting clear visual clue why wolves are in the tower and replacing beetles with bandits, as I can't invent any reason why beetles would terrorize a road, but I can invent multiple reasons why bandit group would do that.

Replacing the Beetles (or the wolves, for that matter) with Bandits is a good idea IMO, and it would fit. If you listen to the people in the Dyrford village, some of them seem to be complaining of Brigands on the roads. But aside from the dragon egg hunting group, there are none to be found in the three maps of the beta.

[Fiebras]

I personally found the two encounters reasonable.

The beetles are all "off-road".

The wolves could have been using the ruins as a home or were resting there as they were in-transit. I agree that some kind of food source would liven things up but (it would actually be hilarious if they placed some pig carcases there) one would assume that your party is the food source in this case. There are plenty of ways to rationalize them the way it is now. I mean they are next to a river and shelter, and the beettles are in thick off-road vegetation. There are rocks for the stone beetles to munch on and plenty of flora for the wood beetles.

 

You dont need to make mental acrobatics here.

 

As for the "thrash" label, I think they existing simply as obstacles between you and the objectives deeper in is "good enough" even if they can be expanded on. I dont think every encounter needs to reward you in some way, sometimes the encounter itself is the reward.

The lack of XP combined with people not knowing how to deal with them at first (needing crush damage, getting poisoned and it being the first combat encounter people experience) is probably the biggest factor as to people being annoyed they have to deal with them.

Perhaps "obstacle/optional" encounters  could use aditional refinement so people can rationalize them better but the initial problem may be a cause of a greater problem (in this case, no combat XP).

 

Edit: Replacing beetles with bandits would make less sense. Why would bandits be so close to town? It makes more sense for bandits to be deeper in like the wurm hunters. Now replacing the Wolves with bandits, that makes more sense. Especially if you add a used campfire to the place. The tower has the perfect shape and everything.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Fiebras

[Immortalis]

People seriously expect Obsidian to actually put tons of effort and narrative background behind every wolf?

 

So it feels more satisfying why they are there?

 

Is this just a scapegoat for the real problem..

the wolves are tedious to fight because they are nothing but a pointless obstacle.. AKA why everyone in this thread is discussing "WHERES THE LOOT"

 

Adding pig corpses or bandits riding the wolves and chasing cultists will make the encounter slightly better.. maybe... the first time you play the game.

 

Seriously just implement kill -xp and make sure the fight is hard. Easy fix. The backwards rationalizing going on here is astounding..

Edited August 27, 2014 by Immortalis

[fortuntek]

I would like to see monster hunting mini-quests, that you can undertake at any level. As "degenerative" as BG's combat xp mechanic may have been, I really enjoyed skipping towards hard encounters early on for the extra XP bump, the challenge, with the quick-leveling as an extra reward for my trouble. 

 

If we can't have this, why not institutionalize specific monster hunting quests? I don't mean "Kill x number of y trash mobs," but like very challenging fights with an appropriately large reward if you've mastered combat at levels lowers than would be typically expected to beat said enemy.

 

Does this not let us have our cake and eat it too?

[PrimeJunta]

"Trygil the currier would like 10 wolf pelts?" I'll pass.

[fortuntek]

"Trygil the currier would like 10 wolf pelts?" I'll pass.

 

I don't mean "Kill x number of y trash mobs," but like very challenging fights with an appropriately large reward if you've mastered combat at levels lowers than would be typically expected to beat said enemy.

 

I'm more thinking along the lines of the ogre quest, only smaller scale where you don't have to fight through a dungeon to get to them, simply find them in the wild, only with an equally if not more difficult fight on your hands. The ogre is meant to be very beatable at that level, I'm talking about optional stuff here.

 

Or not.. I'm just spitballing, throwing out ideas. Basically I don't want collection quests, but more fights that directly end in XP as a result of beating said challenge. Off the beaten path, that sort of thing.

 

Example: In BG you could fight Shoal the Nereid with just you and Imoen at level 1 for a quick XP, if you managed to keep her at bay. That was taking advantage of a bad combat design, but take the Vampiric Wolves for example... if you quickly gained a few magic items early on, you could fight them very carefully at gain a level or two quickly. It was hard, but doable if you know how. 

Edited August 27, 2014 by fortuntek

[Immortalis]

I would like to see monster hunting mini-quests, that you can undertake at any level. As "degenerative" as BG's combat xp mechanic may have been, I really enjoyed skipping towards hard encounters early on for the extra XP bump, the challenge, with the quick-leveling as an extra reward for my trouble. 

 

If we can't have this, why not institutionalize specific monster hunting quests? I don't mean "Kill x number of y trash mobs," but like very challenging fights with an appropriately large reward if you've mastered combat at levels lowers than would be typically expected to beat said enemy.

 

Does this not let us have our cake and eat it too?

Why..

 

Seriously Why?

 

Why is everyone dodging the obvious solution with these lame attempts at solving the problem that has one huge obvious solution.

 

You want bandits to ride the wolves or the wolves to be eating pigs with dialogue and lore popups..

you want obsidian to stop bug fixing to make an eco system with realistic wolf simulation..

you want farmer joe to need 10 wolf pelts for a new coat..

you want loot and items to fall out of the wolfs asss when it dies..

 

just make them give kill xp..

[ctn2003]

i doubt their looking at anybody's gameplay feedback right now, theirs SO many bugs they have to get ride of first. But after the game is stable, i hop theyl take a look at the discussions.  right now the game is basscly alpha witch many see a HUGE disappointment. being in alpha so long and this is what we get?? its not looking promising.

[Immortalis]

i doubt their looking at anybody's gameplay feedback right now, theirs SO many bugs they have to get ride of first. But after the game is stable, i hop theyl take a look at the discussions.  right now the game is basscly alpha witch many see a HUGE disappointment. being in alpha so long and this is what we get?? its not looking promising.

 

your avatar made me think of Safiya from MOTB.. like her fatter brother or something

 

Also I agree with your post.

 

http://ilarge.listal.com/image/5405535/968full-neverwinter-nights-2%3A-mask-of-the-betrayer----expansion-pack-artwork.jpg

Edited August 27, 2014 by Immortalis

[fortuntek]

 

I would like to see monster hunting mini-quests, that you can undertake at any level. As "degenerative" as BG's combat xp mechanic may have been, I really enjoyed skipping towards hard encounters early on for the extra XP bump, the challenge, with the quick-leveling as an extra reward for my trouble. 

 

If we can't have this, why not institutionalize specific monster hunting quests? I don't mean "Kill x number of y trash mobs," but like very challenging fights with an appropriately large reward if you've mastered combat at levels lowers than would be typically expected to beat said enemy.

 

Does this not let us have our cake and eat it too?

Why..

 

Seriously Why?

 

Why is everyone dodging the obvious solution with these lame attempts at solving the problem that has one huge obvious solution.

 

You want bandits to ride the wolves or the wolves to be eating pigs with dialogue and lore popups..

you want obsidian to stop bug fixing to make an eco system with realistic wolf simulation..

you want farmer joe to need 10 wolf pelts for a new coat..

you want loot and items to fall out of the wolfs asss when it dies..

 

just make them give kill xp..

 

 

Look, I'm totally with you there. I'm just trying not to derail this thread, and also, there's a very real chance we might not get that change made, so I'm just offering some potential next-best-case scenarios. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, that's all I'm saying.

Edited August 27, 2014 by fortuntek

[Immortalis]

 

 

I would like to see monster hunting mini-quests, that you can undertake at any level. As "degenerative" as BG's combat xp mechanic may have been, I really enjoyed skipping towards hard encounters early on for the extra XP bump, the challenge, with the quick-leveling as an extra reward for my trouble. 

 

If we can't have this, why not institutionalize specific monster hunting quests? I don't mean "Kill x number of y trash mobs," but like very challenging fights with an appropriately large reward if you've mastered combat at levels lowers than would be typically expected to beat said enemy.

 

Does this not let us have our cake and eat it too?

Why..

 

Seriously Why?

 

Why is everyone dodging the obvious solution with these lame attempts at solving the problem that has one huge obvious solution.

 

You want bandits to ride the wolves or the wolves to be eating pigs with dialogue and lore popups..

you want obsidian to stop bug fixing to make an eco system with realistic wolf simulation..

you want farmer joe to need 10 wolf pelts for a new coat..

you want loot and items to fall out of the wolfs asss when it dies..

 

just make them give kill xp..

 

 

Look, I'm totally with you there. I'm just trying not to derail this thread, and also, there's a very real chance we might not get that change made, so I'm just offering some potential next-best-case scenarios. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, that's all I'm saying.

 

 

Im totally okay with half way points but adding a bunch of fetch quests to the game is a half way point everyone will hate.

[fortuntek]

Im totally okay with half way points but adding a bunch of fetch quests to the game is a half way point everyone will hate.

 

 

But I'm not suggesting fetch quests. I'm talking about optional, Kill-for-XP encounters. No fetching involved. Also, fetch quests tend to be more associated with beating up trash mobs and returning something to prove you did it. I'm talking about something else entirely, and not as a part of core gameplay.

 

If this still doesn't appeal to you then fine, but you see the difference right?

 

I'm thinking some very difficult fights could be done this way. Why? Because loot, unless it's something one of your characters need, it's just sold for money. This adds some variety without adding the problems Josh associates with getting XP for every kill. Thoughts?

Edited August 27, 2014 by fortuntek

[Ink Blot]

your avatar made me think of Safiya from MOTB.. like her fatter brother or something

 

I think of Bobby from King of the Hill...

[archangel979]

But these extra fights for xp unless time sensitive are just going to turn into kill x amount of enemy mmo type quests that everyone returns later to do. Which is probably not bad as it is always cool to have a reason to return to previous cleared areas.

 

IMO best solution would be to create miniquests around all such encounters. Killing wolves lets you find remains of a person someone in town knows and will reward you for finding with the difference being you don't get this quest in advance from this person but only as result of exploring (as the missing person was long gone and they stopped looking for him). It will also let you grab the remains and run from wolves or somehow sneak around them to get the remains.

Edited August 27, 2014 by archangel979