Backer beta: Developer Impressions

[prodigydancer]

The amount of butthurtness in this thread is reaching critical mass!

And it can be summarized as "Oh noes, the game isn't a carbon copy of BG! Teh sky is falling!"

 

Grossly unreasonable expectations always lead to quick disappointment. C'est la vie.

[Mayama]

On the Guild Wars 2 forums, people complain that it's not enough like Guild Wars 1. The reaction: "So go play Guild Wars 1"

 

Read between the lines, kthx. Despite the bugs in beta, I continue to think it's ridiculous the way some are dug into the ground expecting a copy of Baldur's Gate. As someone above said, we're getting a brand new IE-style game. Not another IE game.

Tbh thats not the best example because gw2 could really learn some stuff from gw1. Seperating PvP and PvE for example.

[prodigydancer]

GW2 isn't the best example because its main selling point was "prepare for a revolutionary MMO that will shake the foundations of the genre". It was never promised to be like GW1 in any way.

 

Consequently the problem with GW2 was that the "revolution" was phony and all we got was just another generic themepark almost as buggy (at launch) as Warhammer Online. At least WAR had great RvR. GW2 - not so much.

Edited August 30, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Mayama]

GW2 isn't the best example because its main selling point was "prepare for a revolutionary MMO that will shake the foundations of the genre". It was never promised to be like GW1 in any way.

 

Consequently the problem with GW2 was that the "revolution" was phony and all we got was just another generic themepark almost as buggy (at launch) as Warhammer Online. At least WAR had great RvR. GW2 - not so much.

Well yes but they had a reputation for having really good PvP so people kinda expected them to not do dump decisions.

[wanderon]

 

 

Ahh, so now even the advocates of this borked design are also admitting that this game doesn't resemble the amazing IE games. Good, very good.

 

We thought we had backed the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate!

 

Why is it that almost every advocate for combat xp is an irritating zealot on the issue? You're not more of an IE game fan for preferring a certain XP reward system so stop trying to monopolise the right to define what is and what isn't a spritual succesor to the Infinity Engine games.

PoE isn't a spiritual successor because the core mechanics of the games that we loved are not there. That is something that happens when the lead designer hates the game he is supposed to be making a spiritual successor to.

 

Obsidian promised us an Infinity Engine experience (Baldur's Gate to be specific) and what we got was an RPG with a casualized character system, always-on super stealth mode, quest only XP where you must do the bidding of villagers to get XP, pointless and unrewarding combat, lack of choice (all choices matter equally), lackluster music, no exploration, the itemization appears to be lame, HP bloat and so on. It probably wouldn't be so bad if it was actually good, but it isn't. But at least the writing is good. lol

 

BTW we are advocating for ways to get XP other than by doing the bidding of villagers, for example by exploring or engaging in combat. You know, like in the IE games.

 

 

Ahh, so now even the advocates of this borked design are also admitting that this game doesn't resemble the amazing IE games. Good, very good.

 

We thought we had backed the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate!

 

Really? You mean other than the isometric view, the companions, the tactical group combat and engaging storyline that reacts to your decisions/actions? 

Which game are you talking about? Arcanum? Darklands? Fallout? You have to be more specific and describe the core mechanics of the game.

 

 

OK -

 

1) the isometric view like all the IE games

2) the companions (with minds of their own) like BG series and PST

3), the tactical group combat like all the IE games

4) the engaging storyline that reacts to your decisions/actions Like BG2 (with what should be even more reactivity we've been told)

5) the class system thats very similar to the D&D classes of all the IE games

6) the weapons, armor, and other basic equipment that are similar to those in the IE games

7) the quest and task system which is similar to the IE games

the artwork that is similar to the IE games

9) the leveling system which is similar to the IE games

10) The ability to create a full party of your own choosing with the adventurers guild similar to the IWD series.

11) Great music similar to that of the IE games

 12) A forum where some people can't seem to do anything but complain - like the IE games...

[Helm]

5) the class system thats very similar to the D&D classes of all the IE games

6) the weapons, armor, and other basic equipment that are similar to those in the IE games

7) the quest and task system which is similar to the IE games

9) the leveling system which is similar to the IE games

11) Great music similar to that of the IE games

12) A forum where some people can't seem to do anything but complain - like the IE games...

My roflcopter just took off. The class system has been streamlined and casualized, it can't even compete with the one in Diablo. And so on.

 

Anyway, I asked you to describe the core mechanics. I didn't ask you to make a list of superficial aesthetic stuff, half of which is wrong anyway.

[Volourn]

"6) the weapons, armor, and other basic equipment that are similar to those in the IE games"

 

IE games had buckets passed off as items too? WOW

 

 

 

"5) the class system thats very similar to the D&D classes of all the IE games"

 

Similar to the vast majority of fantasy games. COME ON.

 

 

"9) the leveling system which is similar to the IE games"

 

See above.

 

 

 

"11) Great music similar to that of the IE games"

 

What's great about it? PE's music isn't bad. It's merely average. IE game music is stuff of legend. TOP 10 Game Music Of All Time Legend.

 

 

"7) the quest and task system which is similar to the IE games"

 

Like every RPG ever created. Oops, not quite. Most RPGs don't have quests that just don't work. (yeah I know beta just have fuin)

 

 

"12) A forum where some people can't seem to do anything but complain - like the IE games..."

 

True. but, that's internet in general not IE speciifc.

 

 

As Helm stated, these are all superificial similarities.

 

 

P.S. I believe, in the end, that PE will be a good fun game but people talking like it is BEST GAME EVER is hilarious.

 

I also love this attitude that somehow on this forum dedicated to a 'spiritual successor' to the IE games honestly believe those IE games sucked and everything is an 'improvement' of them.

 

DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

[Azrael Ultima]

You don't have to believe they sucked to see improvements.

 

People are very selective about what is a "pillar of the IE" games, PoE has no alignment system which is a part of icewind dale very important in baldurs gate and a core principle in planescape torment.

Alignments are a D&D feature. My impression so far is that Obsidian isn't going to re-invent D&D. The ruleset they are developing for PoE is quite different so it's hardly a surprise some familiar mechanics from IE games are missing.

 

I found the D&D alignment system to be rather limited and sometimes silly, anyway. Especially when people take it as absolute truth and then apply their own stereotypes to how every alignment has to behave.

 

Besides, due to the limitations of cRPGs, behaving appropriate to the characters supposed alignment often isn't easy. Then there's the Paladins rummaging through peasant hats for stray gems and coins...

Edited August 31, 2014 by Azrael Ultima

[Ashen Rohk]

 

On the Guild Wars 2 forums, people complain that it's not enough like Guild Wars 1. The reaction: "So go play Guild Wars 1"

 

Read between the lines, kthx. Despite the bugs in beta, I continue to think it's ridiculous the way some are dug into the ground expecting a copy of Baldur's Gate. As someone above said, we're getting a brand new IE-style game. Not another IE game.

Tbh thats not the best example because gw2 could really learn some stuff from gw1. Seperating PvP and PvE for example.

 

PvP and PvE are separate. It's World v World that you take your PvE character in to.

 

GW2 did a lot of great things like dodge and the heart system.

 

And Prodigy, thats kind of the point if that's how you feel about GW2? If the game isn't what you want, GW1/BG2 is still there.

Edited August 31, 2014 by Ashen Rohk

[prodigydancer]

GW2 did a lot of great things like dodge and the heart system.

[not_sure_if_serious.jpg]

Using active dodge in 3rd person game is one of the worst ideas ever. In GW2 the problem is seriously exacerbated by:

1) Not having discernible visual feedback on when you should dodge. If you play a heavily dodge-dependent build like condition-based Thief, have fun learning every fight through trial and error.

2) Genre-specific issues. Ping does exist and does matter in online games but the developers chose to ignore these facts.

 

I have average reaction time and OK ping and i still found active dodge insanely annoying.

 

As for hearts... I'm not a fan of questing or MMO PvE in general but if you compare hearts to quest lines from WotLK, WoW content simply tramples GW2. I quit WoW long ago and I can't comment on its current state but GW2 is in every way worse than what WoW was 6 years ago.

Edited August 31, 2014 by prodigydancer

[wanderon]

"6) the weapons, armor, and other basic equipment that are similar to those in the IE games"

 

IE games had buckets passed off as items too? WOW

 

 

 

"5) the class system thats very similar to the D&D classes of all the IE games"

 

Similar to the vast majority of fantasy games. COME ON.

 

 

"9) the leveling system which is similar to the IE games"

 

See above.

 

 

 

"11) Great music similar to that of the IE games"

 

What's great about it? PE's music isn't bad. It's merely average. IE game music is stuff of legend. TOP 10 Game Music Of All Time Legend.

 

 

"7) the quest and task system which is similar to the IE games"

 

Like every RPG ever created. Oops, not quite. Most RPGs don't have quests that just don't work. (yeah I know beta just have fuin)

 

 

"12) A forum where some people can't seem to do anything but complain - like the IE games..."

 

True. but, that's internet in general not IE speciifc.

 

 

As Helm stated, these are all superificial similarities.

 

 

P.S. I believe, in the end, that PE will be a good fun game but people talking like it is BEST GAME EVER is hilarious.

 

I also love this attitude that somehow on this forum dedicated to a 'spiritual successor' to the IE games honestly believe those IE games sucked and everything is an 'improvement' of them.

 

DOES. NOT. COMPUTE.

 

Superficial or not they ARE similarities and the point is that we were never promised a clone of the IE games where every feature you loved about game X Y or Z will be present perfectly in it's glorious '90s form and maybe just maybe we should wait until we've seen a little more than 2 weeks of the first beta build before deciding how much IE "feel" the end result will have or not have.

 

The IE games represent probably 60-75% of my total gameplay since BG first appeared and I have played with all of them just this year so don't count me in the IE games sucked category but don't count me in the "any game thats not a total clone of IE can't be a spiritual successor" either.

 

Then again I'm 65 not 16 or 26 or even 36 and I might just look at things a little differently. 

 

(Oh and I didn't get the whole "bucket" reference) 

Edited August 31, 2014 by wanderon

[archangel979]

No but we expect they don't touch things that worked in IE games and improve the rest.

Starcraft 2 didn't do this, they decided to change things that worked well in SC1. Many old fans hated it and SC2 after its opening fame got beaten in esports by other games.

[wanderon]

No but we expect they don't touch things that worked in IE games and improve the rest.

Starcraft 2 didn't do this, they decided to change things that worked well in SC1. Many old fans hated it and SC2 after its opening fame got beaten in esports by other games.

 Yes I'm sure that's the issue a lot of folks have with the concept the trouble is I think it's  an unrealistic expectation - first of all every Tom **** and Gwendolyn that played these games have different ideas of what worked and what didn't and secondly just because a mechanic worked back then in the Infinity Engine doesn't mean it's your only option today.

 

Really? I can't use the short version of the name Richard? 

Edited August 31, 2014 by wanderon

[wolfstriked]

My name is ****.

[Marceror]

Time for a new thread, me thinks.

[Tartantyco]

How about we just let this die, instead?

[archangel979]

 

No but we expect they don't touch things that worked in IE games and improve the rest.

Starcraft 2 didn't do this, they decided to change things that worked well in SC1. Many old fans hated it and SC2 after its opening fame got beaten in esports by other games.

 Yes I'm sure that's the issue a lot of folks have with the concept the trouble is I think it's  an unrealistic expectation - first of all every Tom **** and Gwendolyn that played these games have different ideas of what worked and what didn't and secondly just because a mechanic worked back then in the Infinity Engine doesn't mean it's your only option today.

 

Really? I can't use the short version of the name Richard? 

 

In that case you find out the aspects that most people liked and keep those instead of guessing them or just ignoring them because you think you know better. 

 

Thinking you know better failed for D&D 4e and made Wizards to farm information from their players to get best from all previous editions and create 5e. J.E. Sawyer should have done same. 

[DnaCowboy]

Awesome OP post and I liked his idea about making combat Turn-Based, tbh, I was a little surprised the game wasn't turn-based as it seems an ideal game for it. Of course, I love what he said about combat xp or lack of which essentially validates everything myself and others have been saying. 

 

 

 

[wanderon]

 

 

No but we expect they don't touch things that worked in IE games and improve the rest.

Starcraft 2 didn't do this, they decided to change things that worked well in SC1. Many old fans hated it and SC2 after its opening fame got beaten in esports by other games.

 Yes I'm sure that's the issue a lot of folks have with the concept the trouble is I think it's  an unrealistic expectation - first of all every Tom **** and Gwendolyn that played these games have different ideas of what worked and what didn't and secondly just because a mechanic worked back then in the Infinity Engine doesn't mean it's your only option today.

 

Really? I can't use the short version of the name Richard? 

 

In that case you find out the aspects that most people liked and keep those instead of guessing them or just ignoring them because you think you know better. 

 

Thinking you know better failed for D&D 4e and made Wizards to farm information from their players to get best from all previous editions and create 5e. J.E. Sawyer should have done same. 

 

 

Of course you do because as great team of accomplished developers you should scrap all your own ideas and read tweets & posts on the internet to decide how to make your game. Take some polls have a contest or two.....

[Ashram]

I agree with a lot of what the OP Said. Here are my observations thus far.

 

Even as strategically as you plan your encounter, I used the NPC wizard to toss fireballs that did hardly anything, (granted I was fighting the lions at the time). Then it was a giant cluster of melee madness. I find myself barely engaged and more watching as all the party members save my created paladin.

 

I just maxed Strength and Constitution and guessed on everything else, but the pally seems to be able to fight the good fight even against multiple big bads. Even the fighter gets dropped in melee before the Pally.

 

The cleric's heals seems to not be as effective as I thought they would be.

 

The rogue is understandable squishy but even if I try setting up flanking and using its maneuvers, it doesn't have the high damage output I figured it might.

 

The wizard...meh. With as many spells it has the only thing that seemed to work somewhat was web and then using the missiles. Most of the other spells I tried had little effect.

 

To sum it up. I really like the visuals so far, I like the possible plot hooks you can find. Sound effects are pretty decent. Combat is....meh. If it is any challenge, the normal turn of events is I send my created Paladin into the middle to try and tank, and try to use creative strategies for the rest of the party who gets KO'd and I then just use the main hero to finish the rest off.

[Marceror]

How about we just let this die, instead?

Would be okay too. Was mostly commenting on the fact that 500 posts is supposed to be a maximum for a thread.

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

 

 

No but we expect they don't touch things that worked in IE games and improve the rest.

Starcraft 2 didn't do this, they decided to change things that worked well in SC1. Many old fans hated it and SC2 after its opening fame got beaten in esports by other games.

Yes I'm sure that's the issue a lot of folks have with the concept the trouble is I think it's an unrealistic expectation - first of all every Tom **** and Gwendolyn that played these games have different ideas of what worked and what didn't and secondly just because a mechanic worked back then in the Infinity Engine doesn't mean it's your only option today.

 

Really? I can't use the short version of the name Richard?

In that case you find out the aspects that most people liked and keep those instead of guessing them or just ignoring them because you think you know better.

 

Thinking you know better failed for D&D 4e and made Wizards to farm information from their players to get best from all previous editions and create 5e. J.E. Sawyer should have done same.

Of course you do because as great team of accomplished developers you should scrap all your own ideas and read tweets & posts on the internet to decide how to make your game. Take some polls have a contest or two.....

If you actually understood my post the D&D 4e team was also experienced people who managed to **** up their own brand by thinking they know better than people they are making it for.

[Shevek]

Helm:

They didnt promise a BG clone. Get over it. Hey, I dont like the lack of combat xp either but, on balance, Obsidian delivered in a big way. This game has massive potential and most of the changes feel spot on.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Shevek

[wanderon]

 

 

 

 

No but we expect they don't touch things that worked in IE games and improve the rest.

Starcraft 2 didn't do this, they decided to change things that worked well in SC1. Many old fans hated it and SC2 after its opening fame got beaten in esports by other games.

Yes I'm sure that's the issue a lot of folks have with the concept the trouble is I think it's an unrealistic expectation - first of all every Tom **** and Gwendolyn that played these games have different ideas of what worked and what didn't and secondly just because a mechanic worked back then in the Infinity Engine doesn't mean it's your only option today.

 

Really? I can't use the short version of the name Richard?

In that case you find out the aspects that most people liked and keep those instead of guessing them or just ignoring them because you think you know better.

 

Thinking you know better failed for D&D 4e and made Wizards to farm information from their players to get best from all previous editions and create 5e. J.E. Sawyer should have done same.

Of course you do because as great team of accomplished developers you should scrap all your own ideas and read tweets & posts on the internet to decide how to make your game. Take some polls have a contest or two.....

If you actually understood my post the D&D 4e team was also experienced people who managed to **** up their own brand by thinking they know better than people they are making it for.

 

 

#1 - according to whom? #2 - LOL 

[Rosbjerg]

Thread closed due to length and general derailment.