Update #81: The Front Line: Fighters and Barbarians

[ManifestedISO]

All of these math-based processes and terminology are scaring my right-brain. I hope there's a bit more comprehensible path--one that allows a ramp up to the complexity.  

 

Anyway, love it, thanks for the update.  

[Lephys]

All of these math-based processes and terminology are scaring my right-brain.

It's a shame they aren't just scaring your wrong-brain.

 

I second Stun's awesome question. Seems like the base range (to which Intellect's bonus/modifier is purely additive) should be affected by weapon reach?

 

And, of course, now I'm just imagining a Barbarian dual-wielding wands (the most ridiculous weapon I can think of).

Edited June 26, 2014 by Lephys

[rjshae]

All of these math-based processes and terminology are scaring my right-brain. I hope there's a bit more comprehensible path--one that allows a ramp up to the complexity.  

 

Anyway, love it, thanks for the update.  

 

That's the benefit of having the PC do all the computation for you; it lets you focus on the tactical aspects of all these various elements instead. What may be more of a challenge is turning this into a playable PnP game. But that's not our problem.

[happyelf]

Thanks for the update, I love Fighters so this was the class update I wanted to see most. 

 

I am however slightly disappointed in the fighter info itself.  They just seem rather lack luster and to be good at nothing other than fighting other fighters and not falling down.  Rogues have multiple ways to beat engagement and I see no method in there for Fighters to stop them more than once.  Barbarians can ignore engagement but take a hit, who cares though since they effectively have double the HP of everyone else due to only taking health damage once every 8 stam instead of 4.  Fighters just seem to have no tool for dealing with fast moving engagement breaks or ranged enemies other than "run at normal speed, hope to catch them, and eat their attacks until you get there".  Taking a hit is nice and all but that's all they really have and 20% glances turn to hits doesn't seem very ... interesting... or strong.  I guess the minimum damage increase could be nice but we will have to see damage ranges to know.

 

If NPCs use the class powers, they are indeed going to run ragged over PC fighters from the looks of it. Rogues and Barbs are exactly the type of character you want a fighter to keep away from the rear line. If a pc fighter can't do that reliably, then what good are they, really?

 

A fighter needs to be legit sticky if they're going to be stuck with this old school role as a simple tank class. 

 

(edit) The addition of some pull powers as the devs mentioned go a long way to helping fix this issue.

Edited June 26, 2014 by happyelf

[cornishr]

Sweet Jesus, 2 more girls as a fighter and a barbarian.

 

How sh!t.

[curryinahurry]

Fighter seems like it will be pretty much what has been described, reliable.  I also think the class needs some active use abilities to not be dull.  As someone who always plays a fighter in their first play-through of games, I found one of the greatest flaws in the IE games that I spent all my time managing every other character in my party.  The only time I would go back to my fighter was when a potion needed chugging or to move on to another target... not wonderful.  

 

These active use abilities need not be massive damage dealers, but more along the lines of shield bash, trip, called shot, bleeding wound, etc.  I know that knockdown will be in the game, so I have some hope for these types of active use abilities; just hope to get more information on them soon.

 

Also, will fighters have a threat zone (circle) for defender mode, or will we mark targets?   I would prefer a threat circle that would trigger an attack of opportunity on any enemy trying to rush past the fighter (even if not actively engaged).

 

Barbarians sound like they will be a blast to play...hope we get an NPC barbarian so I can try them out in game.

Edited June 26, 2014 by curryinahurry

[dr membrano]

All of these math-based processes and terminology are scaring my right-brain. I hope there's a bit more comprehensible path--one that allows a ramp up to the complexity.  

 

Anyway, love it, thanks for the update.  

 

It's just describing nuances of fighting that you'd expect in a "real life" fight. If someone is not at all dexterous and has never used a bow before you would not expect them to simply pick one up and be proficient with it. While you're playing the game, one simple number will appear as your "hit" but as you play you'll begin to wonder why you're not as accurate or powerful as you think you should be. The simple "hit" will take into account all of yours and your opponents' strengths and weaknesses. Common sense tells you that hitting fully armored opponent with a wooden staff won't be as effective as using electricity.

 

I'm eager to see more than a two-hit teaser of what a full battle involving several different classes looks like. Very interested to see how they balance out on average when you're not just planning to take advantage of multipliers. Should be worth the wait and anticipation. 

[Silent Winter]

Great update - as always, the classes sound like fun to play.

Probably won't go with a fighter PC but will get one from AH (unless there's a companion?)

 

I like the portrait too - in-profile may not show as much as 3/4 face but it's good to have variety in that regard too.

[DCParry]

 

All of these math-based processes and terminology are scaring my right-brain.

It's a shame they aren't just scaring your wrong-brain.

 

I second Stun's awesome question. Seems like the base range (to which Intellect's bonus/modifier is purely additive) should be affected by weapon reach?

 

And, of course, now I'm just imagining a Barbarian dual-wielding wands (the most ridiculous weapon I can think of).

 

 

 

Well, there is reach and there is effective reach. If 5 people are standing perfectly spread out in a cone in a semicircle in front of you I see the spear being a superior weapon. However, take those 5 people and squish them tighter in elevator with you and a dagger might actually be able to be more effective. 

 

Of course, this is all over complicated for the combat system to take into account (it is a game, not a combat simulator, in before blah blah SCA weapons training with real spears I can do all that and so on), I think we might be able to abstract and not worry TOO much about weapon interaction with carnage. 

[PrimeJunta]

You know what's the problem with these class updates? They make me go "now that's the class I want to play," every. damn. time. And I've already used most of my paid vacation for this year.

[Sensuki]

Well look at the bright side you'll get to play up to six of them at a time, even if you didn't make the character yourself

[Lephys]

Well, there is reach and there is effective reach. If 5 people are standing perfectly spread out in a cone in a semicircle in front of you I see the spear being a superior weapon. However, take those 5 people and squish them tighter in elevator with you and a dagger might actually be able to be more effective. 

 

Of course, this is all over complicated for the combat system to take into account (it is a game, not a combat simulator, in before blah blah SCA weapons training with real spears I can do all that and so on), I think we might be able to abstract and not worry TOO much about weapon interaction with carnage.

No no, I get that. A fair point about effective reach versus base reach. That doesn't change the fact that sometimes, effective reach isn't shrunken like that, and it does actually matter.

 

Put simply, we know that polearms and the like will mechanically alter your reach, so we know there isn't just a single reach for all weapons ever. So, it's a curious question, now. Really two, I suppose, but they're sort of both answered at the same time:

 

A) Do different weapons affect your reach beyond just "polearm gets reach distance B, all other weapons get reach distance A"? i.e. does a greatsword allow you to attack from a greater distance than a dagger?

 

B) Does Carnage utilize your base weapon reach?

 

Again, most likely they're both the same answer, as I don't see why a greatsword would grant a reach advantage, but then Carnage wouldn't make use of that.

[Sofaking]

 

All of these math-based processes and terminology are scaring my right-brain. I hope there's a bit more comprehensible path--one that allows a ramp up to the complexity.  

 

Anyway, love it, thanks for the update.  

 

 Common sense tells you that hitting fully armored opponent with a wooden staff won't be as effective as using electricity.

 

Interesting, but wouldn't the metal armor ground you and protect you from the electrictiy?

[dr membrano]

 

Interesting, but wouldn't the metal armor ground you and protect you from the electrictiy?

 

 

Sans insulation I suppose but they've said that steel is the most common material available which is a poor surface conductor, if you were touching it at all I'd imagine you'd get zapped. In fact, whether or not you were directly affected by the electricity is almost moot because the metal would be hotter than an oven afterwards. 

[rf5111918]

This game is going to be so awesome when it comes out. Josh, Brandon, and everyone else on the team, thanks for the updates. I support you guys 100%.

[Gorbag]

 

Could you give an example of what you have in mind?

 

The most obvious are Horrid Wilting and Teleport Field in BG2.

 

Hehe, I don't mean to nitpick, but Horrid Wilting (IWD2) friendly-fires like hell. Abi-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting (BG2) on the other hand... Love that Abi-Dhalzim guy! He must have been best buds with the guy who invented Chain Contingency.

I wonder if those two would have a ball in PoE as well?

[MasterPrudent]

 

Also, will fighters have a threat zone (circle) for defender mode, or will we mark targets?   I would prefer a threat circle that would trigger an attack of opportunity on any enemy trying to rush past the fighter (even if not actively engaged).

I can't find a source but I do remember one of the devs saying it was a circle.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I guess it wouldn't hurt to ask but what is the estimated length of the game you guys are aiming for?

 

 

I don't care. I know what I'm aiming for. Let's see now, take the number of classes times one thorough playthrough...

Ah! 782 hours, give or take 53 minutes, 40 seconds and 12 nanoseconds.

[Judicator]

Good update as always. I like the way these 3 classes are shaping up. But are they the only ones meant to be on the front lines? I was under the impression that Paladins were front liners as well as leaders.

[Sensuki]

Paladins can also be ranged leaders, and don't necessarily have any abilities that help them tank damage.

 

It's pretty much

 

"Tank": Fighter, Monk, Barbarian

"DPS": Rogue, Ranger, Cipher

"Controller": Wizard, Druid

"Support": Paladin, Chanter, Priest

 

All classes seem very distinct which is good.

[Baudolino05]

@Josh: I know nothing about PoE overall balancement, but I'm under the impression that "thick-skinned" coupled with other barbarian's abilities is kind of overpowered. I mean: a barbarian can go down 7 times before he feels the urge to rest, and in the meanwhile he can "spam" lots of interesting "low-stamina" abilities. Isn't that too much?  

Edited June 26, 2014 by Baudolino05

[Agremont]

Sweet Jesus, 2 more girls as a fighter and a barbarian.

 

How sh!t.

 

Seriously, what's the deal with you?

 

Also, the barbarian one looks like concept art to me.

Edited June 26, 2014 by Agremont

[Endrosz]

Yes, there are currently six categories.  The D&D standard is that characters are equally skilled with all weapons in which they have proficiency, so I don't think it's that odd to have thematically-grouped weapon specializations.  Mechanically, the thematic groupings allow characters to gain bonuses with a set of one-handed and two-handed melee weapons as well as with ranged weapons  It gives the player more circumstantial flexibility.

Do the categories overlap (I would prefer that), or are they exclusive? Based on the number of weapons in a category, that would mean a huge number of different weapons with 6 categories, and a lot of the individual weapons would probably be underused.

[Srefanius]

I really really love this concept art, she is so beautiful!

 

 

 

[teknoman2]

 

 

IIRC, even areas of effect can cause crit damage, so let's say the party gets hit by a huge fireball, will the Critical Defense ability still absorb crit damage, or is it just a melee damage-specific ability?

 

Yes, Critical Defense would still apply.

 

How does Carnage work animation wise? Is it a sweeping sort of attack animation? I suppose you don't see the barbarian, individually attack each enemy. Hypothetically, how many enemies can be hit by carnage at the same time? Can the successful attacks interrupt enemy actions?

 

Carnage doesn't use special animations, just the standard attacks.  It would be too expensive to animate special Carnage variants for all weapon types.  The number of enemies that can be affected by Carnage depends on how close together they are and how high the barbarian's Int is.  Carnage hits can cause Interrupts, yes.  However, because barbarians have a lower base Accuracy than other melee classes, and Interrupt chance is influenced by Grazes and Crits, they will tend to cause Interrupts less often per hit compared to a fighter, rogue, or paladin with equivalent gear/attributes/level.

 

you could add a subbtle effect like the one used in dota2 for attacks with a battlefury equiped